|
Post by karalee on Nov 16, 2003 0:02:41 GMT -5
Not so fast -pardner- I am back( I need to make a ton of posts to catch up with overachievers with a thousand posts Seriously- much as I hate to admit it- I agree with you that Angel is a better (more interesting ) character when buffy is not around. Something I am beginning to feel about Spike as well. ( and yes- I still like Buffy, character and actress enormously.) I must confess to being drawn to the super-angsty lure of both relationships- it is just so complicated with all of the various entanglements and obligations. Frankly- I cannot see her really giving herself to either Angel or Spike while the other lives. Wow, I've never been called an overachiever before. I feel all smart and everything ;D Like I said in one of my previous posts, I want all three of them to move on to other relationships, where they can be happy. I could probably help Spike with that. I mean, if I wasn't married........and he was a real person. Commas are the bane of my existence. I need Nan to grade my posts and tell me where to put them. I really, really have to get off here now. This is the longest I've spent on the board on a Saturday. I need to go to bed so I can get up for church. Since Brad is working his weird hours, I have no help in getting 3 girls up and ready for church, along with myself. Ain't no easy task and we usually all need some preachin' by the time we get there. Goodnight
|
|
|
Post by makd on Nov 16, 2003 0:12:29 GMT -5
Wow, I've never been called an overachiever before. I feel all smart and everything ;D Like I said in one of my previous posts, I want all three of them to move on to other relationships, where they can be happy. I could probably help Spike with that. I mean, if I wasn't married........and he was a real person. Commas are the bane of my existence. I need Nan to grade my posts and tell me where to put them. Caraleigh: learned many years ago: never ask a person where you should put something. They usually tell you, and it's usually not where you wanted to put it! By the way, MOPS is watching the pilot episode of the X-Files. Chemistry, right there, from episode 1 - Mulder and Scully. I miss them.
|
|
|
Post by makd on Nov 16, 2003 0:29:53 GMT -5
Just received this from a friend:
"Pass this on to all of your friends. There are many women out there who have breast cancer. Lets do all we can to support this cause.
The makers of M&M candies has teamed up with the Susan G. Komen Breast Cancer Foundation to raise funds through the sale of their new "pink & white " M&M candies. For each 8-ounce bag of the special candies sold, the makers of M&M (Masterfoods) will donate 50 cents to the foundation.
The next time you want a treat, please pick up a bag (now sold in stores nationwide) - you will be donating to a great cause and satisfying your sweet tooth.
Please pass on to all your family and friends. -- Thank you."
I'll be looking for and buying a bag. Those M&M's are classic good stuff to chomp on when doing computer work and computer fun.
|
|
|
Post by makd on Nov 16, 2003 1:10:31 GMT -5
And, it's good night to youall.
See youall tomorrow. And, for those in the Northeast: Buffy at 3, and Angel at 4.
This I like.
|
|
|
Post by Wendy on Nov 16, 2003 2:02:25 GMT -5
Okay, I'm back, 'cuz I'm addicted and needed another hit. Also, I wanted to see my pretty NB avatar ;D I remembered what I was going to say in my last post. It was something that I didn't think I would ever say, and it's that I have actually started to like Angel (the character). He's never going to be my favorite, but I am starting to see his side of things. That is all I didn't start liking Angel until he got away from Buffy. Someone mentioned she made him act immature when they were together, ITA. It's always kinda bothered me that a 200+ year old man was hanging out and talking about prom with a 17 year old. But, I gained a new perspective after watching AtS. I really like Angel now, tho Spike's my favorite vamp with a soul.
|
|
|
Post by RAKSHA on Nov 16, 2003 2:59:52 GMT -5
And, it's good night to youall. See youall tomorrow. And, for those in the Northeast: Buffy at 3, and Angel at 4. This I like. Actually, at least on the non-cable channel, it was BUFFY at 3 (DOUBLEMEAT PALACE) and ANGEL at 4 (I WILL REMEMBER YOU) on Saturday in Massachusetts....
Btw, I missed about 20 minutes of DOUBLEMEAT PALACE, which I'd never seen before? I saw Spike come into the restaurant, look at Buffy, then I missed about a minute, and came in on Spike and Buffy having sex standing up somewhere (well, the poor girl needed to cool off after what I think was a double shift at the grill). Did I miss any Spuffiness? Why did Spike come to the Doublemeat? Did he know she was there? Did Spike appear in the episode before then? Was there any hint as to whose idea it was to go sneak out into the alley or wherever and go at it?
[shadow=red,left,300]GAIL [/shadow][/color]
|
|
|
Post by RAKSHA on Nov 16, 2003 4:01:50 GMT -5
Ellie, good to see you posting regularly again! Keep it up!
Makd & Caraleigh, good points on the ever-popular Spike & Buffy & Angel When Will She Bake issue...
Or more importantly, Which Vampire Gets Fully Baked Buffy?
There are no easy answers to that question. The answer depends in large degree on what Buffy wants to do with the rest of her life. If she wants to continue being a Slayer, then a vampire lover would be a distinct advantage. Spike would be best for her, since I doubt that Angel is going to leave his responsibilities at W&H to run around Slaying with Buffy...But is that the choice that Buffy-as-Slayer would make?
Buffy IS fixated on Angel. I have no doubt that she came to love Spike in S7, but the minute she had access to Angel she was all over him. I think the kiss and the 'basking' comment was something of a reflex action. But Spike could never have been comfortable in a long-term relationship with Buffy if she was going to bounce into Angel's arms every time the big guy sailed into her life to bring her a Save-the-World talisman. And it would have taken Spike a long time to get over the memory of Buffy kissing Angel.
The problem was that Buffy and Angel were two heroic individuals who were strongly attracted to each other, and never had a chance to take it farther than a kiss or two. The kind of heady, romantic 'love' they shared in BUFFY seasons 1-2 was the type that people often have in the early stages of a serious relationship. Normal people follow the relationship through, get to know the person, or take a chance and marry, and let the relationship develop for better or worse. But Buffy & Angel's relationship was frozen in that early, romantic stage. They never had the time to progress to frequent dating, to becoming significant others, going steady, whatever. And because they never took that second step; Buffy and Angel find it hard to get past the intense emotions they felt for each other during the first, very romantic, stage. Their future is also, as others have pointed out, complicated by Buffy's having been so young when she first loved Angel. She's no longer that 16-year-old who met Angel and was emotionally swept off her feet by him.
I would wish that Angel could get his soul-curse modified so that he and Buffy could have the chance they were denied. They'd go through passion and probably the pain of an emotionally intense breakup, but at least they'd get each other out of their systems so they could cleanly move on. And Spike would probably still be there for Buffy after she and Angel were done.
If Buffy does NOT want to Slay anymore, than I doubt that Spike could maintain a longterm relationship with her even if Angel were dusted or married to Cordelia. Spike is a fighter, he thrives on the thrill of hunting and violence. He would try to domesticate himself for Buffy's sake, but I think he'd return to demon-slaying or worse. And part of Spike and Buffy's mutual attraction was the thrill of patrolling together. Of course, if Spike Shanshued, then he'd be perfect for a post-Angel non-Slaying Buffy.
Or almost perfect. Has anyone addressed the fact that Buffy's superhuman stamina applies to her sexuality as well, and that she might not be satisfied with a human sexual partner?
Looking at Buffy realistically, I see a troubled future for her. She is untrained and awkward in any situation/profession other than killing demons & vampires. Slaying is her vocation; and she is superb at it, the best there is. I don't know if Buffy is flexible enough to re-invent herself by going back to college and finding something other than Slaying to do with her life. And if she does want to try, can she also support Dawn and insure her education? I'm hoping that Buffy's father will turn up, remember he has two daughters in need of college educations, and start forking over the checks, or that some extra Watchers' funds will be found to give Buffy a well-deserved pension.
[/size][/font][/color] [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
|
|
|
Post by Rob on Nov 16, 2003 5:12:40 GMT -5
Actually, at least on the non-cable channel, it was BUFFY at 3 (DOUBLEMEAT PALACE) and ANGEL at 4 (I WILL REMEMBER YOU) on Saturday in Massachusetts....
Btw, I missed about 20 minutes of DOUBLEMEAT PALACE, which I'd never seen before? I saw Spike come into the restaurant, look at Buffy, then I missed about a minute, and came in on Spike and Buffy having sex standing up somewhere (well, the poor girl needed to cool off after what I think was a double shift at the grill). Did I miss any Spuffiness? Why did Spike come to the Doublemeat? Did he know she was there? Did Spike appear in the episode before then? Was there any hint as to whose idea it was to go sneak out into the alley or wherever and go at it?
[shadow=red,left,300]GAIL [/shadow] [/color] [/quote] Actually, that particular Spike/Buffy scene sets up a key plot point in "As You Were." I'm paraphrasing, but he essentially tells Buffy that this kind of work is (for lack of a better choice of words) beneath her. Then during her break they have what is clearly (from Buffy's perspective) meant to be empty and degrading sex by a dumpster behind a restaurant. If you check out the vacant look in her eyes during that sex scene, you'll see what I'm talking about. It's very sad to watch, and arguably Buffy hitting absolute rock bottom in Season 6. Working there is beneath her, but ravaging her by the trash while she's on break is perfectly ok, apparently. That symbolized a lot in the Buffy/Spike Season 6 "relationship." Anyway, Buffy tells Spike she has to make money somehow, and he responds with "I can get money." He never specifies how, but the rather silly evil-egg-storage-for-a- friend plot is set up by that line. I consider Doublemeat Palace to be among the worst BTVS episodes ever, by the way, and I'm not alone in that. I realize what it was supposed to make us feel about real life and debasing ourselves to survive and all that...but hey, I knew all that already. Didn't really need the reminder. Perhaps the reason "Doublemeat Palace" is so unpopular is the fact that it IS so familiar: many of us (myself included) have had to work that sort of mind-numbing job to get by at one time or another...in fact, a lot of people have mind numbing careers that pay the bills. That's just the way the world works. I just think Xander's Season 4 struggles covered the same ground in a more entertaining way. Someone as brilliant as Jane Espenson should be allowed to have the occasional lackluster outing. It was an interesting idea that just didn't work for me. One last point that is going to get me in trouble: a lot of ammo is handed to the Spike-haters of the world when he doesn't encourage and support the fact that Buffy is making an effort to reintegrate with the world. The rest of her friends at least make an effort to do so in this episode. Is the job crappy? Yup. Should ANYONE from the Scooby Gang have to do a job like that with the service they provide to the world? Nope. Still, Buffy is making the best of a bad situation. She needed support, not someone telling her she didn't belong there. Spike is clearly written as someone who is trying to keep her on his level rather than encourage her to readjust. Let me add that I completely understand he meant well...he just saw things from a different perspective than humans would. Season 7 Spike, on the other hand, would have been much more understanding of the situation, and undoubtedly supportive of her. As much as Spike loved her (and he most certainly did) in Season 6, neither he nor Buffy were capable of being in any kind of healthy relationship until he fully restored his soul. They were poison for one another until then.
|
|
|
Post by Rob on Nov 16, 2003 5:48:52 GMT -5
[quote author=RAKSHA Or almost perfect. Has anyone addressed the fact that Buffy's superhuman stamina applies to her sexuality as well, and that she might not be satisfied with a human sexual partner? [/quote] I've read a lot of Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike shippers say she can only be with a vampire because she would be unable to be satisfied with a human male. In essence, they're saying the likes of Riley and Xander aren't "man enough" for her. This is all a matter of opinion, depending on what one wants to believe, but here is my take: It was never stated or inferred that Riley did not satisfy Buffy in that way. Ever. As much as people didn't care for them together (myself included), there is no evidence that she had any qualms with him sexually, no matter what anyone may choose to assume. Based on that, there is more evidence that Buffy IS capable of being satisfied by a regular old every day human guy than otherwise. Now, I can already hear the chorus of people telling me that Riley may have been good, but our man Spike was on a totally different level...you know, the whole five-time thing. I'm not even going to get into logic or specifics about that, because what would be the point? Logic sort of flies out the window when one broaches this topic. If we were supposed to apply common sense, someone would have asked how exactly a vampire can do "it" in the first place. Last time I checked, one had to have a functioning heart to get the engine to turn over. I'll make a deal with the board: I won't ask the question about the utter lack of blood flow and heartbeat...as long as no one assumes a normal human couldn't give Buffy a proper happy.
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Nov 16, 2003 5:52:44 GMT -5
LadyDi & makd--two wonderful posts presenting each side of the "Who does Buffy really love" debate.
I want to believe LadyDi's view, but in my heart of hearts I have to agree with makd. In either case, I want all three of them to move on. In 10 years Buffy can get look them up and wax nostalgic about old times.
Gail--In IWRY when Buffy & human Angel had sex, she told him she was completely drained?, satisified?, can't remember the exact phrasing. Of course, she was still very young and hadn't had mind-blowing, five hours-at-a-time-sex-with-Spike yet. I would hope Buffy would put more emphasis on the emotional connection than than the physical one--not that the physical isn't important, but the physical eventually won't be enough if the emotional connection isn't there--hence her breaking up with Spike.
|
|
|
Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 16, 2003 7:46:16 GMT -5
Congratulations Missbuffy on winning the Picture of the Week Contest with your great entry. I love that picture - and its not one I have often seen. Congrats to the other entries as well, they were all really good - the quality level keeps going up if anything! Vlad will post the picture on the site, and I will create the nominations thread for this week!
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Nov 16, 2003 10:11:42 GMT -5
I've read a lot of Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike shippers say she can only be with a vampire because she would be unable to be satisfied with a human male. In essence, they're saying the likes of Riley and Xander aren't "man enough" for her. True, this has been mentioned, but like you Rob, I don't think there is any real support for the idea that Buffy can't be sexually satisfied by a human male because of her super-stamina. Her superstamina is well, just that. It doesn't equal "super sex drive." Gotta disagree with you there. I don't think it is "because he is human" but I do think that the scene in which Buffy leaves Riley's bed in order to get some satisfaction slaying was meant to imply that she was not being sexually satisfied. And I think Riley later leaving her bed for vamp-ho's implied the same. It was all tangled up in them not satisifying each other in many other ways as well. I do think there was a lot of implication that Spike was "the best Buffy ever had," as he so humbly mentions to her himself, but I don't think it was because of his "super-vampire strength." So I agree with you that there is nothing in the show to give us the idea Buffy could never be fully sexually satisfied by a regular male. I do believe she could be. No reason not to believe it. But I disagree with the idea that we got no clear message that Buffy wasn't fully satisfied with Riley, sexually and otherwise (or if truth be told, he with her). And we got the message ad nauseum that B/S were very sexually satisifed with one another, though of course, that didn't turn out to be enough.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Nov 16, 2003 10:26:10 GMT -5
Just a note to say, who watched my Buckeyes[/b] beat Purdue in overtime? They give me a heart-attack every game, but they (almost) always win.
The National Press is really hard on them - one of the ESPN announcers said, derisively, commenting on the lack of pretty wins: "The Buckeyes win, but that's all they know how to do, is win." Do they listen to themselves? Of course, these are the same guys who predicted Miami would pound Ohio State in last year's National Championship game.
OK - my weekly Buckeye report is at an end. Go Bucks, beat Michigan (next week, the big game!).
|
|
|
Post by Sue on Nov 16, 2003 10:27:53 GMT -5
Gail--In IWRY when Buffy & human Angel had sex, she told him she was completely drained?, satisified?, can't remember the exact phrasing. Of course, she was still very young and hadn't had mind-blowing, five hours-at-a-time-sex-with-Spike yet. I would hope Buffy would put more emphasis on the emotional connection than than the physical one--not that the physical isn't important, but the physical eventually won't be enough if the emotional connection isn't there--hence her breaking up with Spike. And Rob also said: I'm with Nicki and Rob on this one. Fanfic definitely favors the "Buffy needs a vampire" argument. And I think folks take her failed relationship with Riley (esp the scene in "Dracula" where she gets out of bed to go "hunt") as evidence that a human didn't satisfy her. I definitely think the problem with Riley was in her heart/mind connection with him (and his feelings of inadequacy) not necessarily in her physical relationship with him. This ties right in with Gail's post about Buffy and Angel never getting past the early "romantic" feelings to see whether there was other solid ground on which to base their relationship. She did get beyond that point with Riley, and no there wasn't enough else there. But one reason Buffy/Angel failed was it was all about the sex. They couldn't have it, couldn't deal with not having it. Do not even get me started on how this is a common theme in society today. It's all about sex. Well, it's not. Which is also one reason I am (very) reluctantly going to admit that maybe it was a good thing we never saw Buffy and Spike connect on that level (sexually) at the veryend. Did they have sex? The point is: it doesn't matter! Their relationship was grounded in far more than just sex: mutual respect and an understanding of who the other was at the core of his/her being. Who has the more meaningful, and yes satisfactory relationship? Jo-Lo and Ben or Christopher Reeve and his wife? Am I saying sex is unimportant in a relationship? Heavens no! But the single most important focal point? No way. And "satisfying" one's partner is way, way more than completing the act "successfully." Excuse me, somebody must have pushed a hot button of mine. I have three teenage kids and I see the line they are being fed by movies, TV, peers, etc. and I just want to scream. Trying to get back on topic. What if Angel or Spike shanshus--you don't think human Angel or human Spike could "satisfy" Buffy? I beg to differ.
|
|
|
Post by Sue on Nov 16, 2003 10:32:35 GMT -5
I knew Spring would respond and say it much more succintly than I. Well, I may have more thoughts on this, but got to go to church--and not think about Buffy/Spike sex. Maybe I should avoid the board on Sunday mornings.
|
|