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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 16, 2003 10:36:20 GMT -5
I'm with Nicki and Rob on this one. Fanfic definitely favors the "Buffy needs a vampire" argument. And I think folks take her failed relationship with Riley (esp the scene in "Dracula" where she gets out of bed to go "hunt") as evidence that a human didn't satisfy her. I definitely think the problem with Riley was in her heart/mind connection with him (and his feelings of inadequacy) not necessarily in her physical relationship with him. I agree, though that lack of heart/mind connection bleeds into the sex-thing, and I think we get the message that it did that, for Buffy & Riley. But it was very "Buffy & Riley" specific, and there is no reason, from that, to extrapolate to the general human-male public, and decide "Buffy can't be sexually satisfied by a human male." Well said, Sue!
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Nov 16, 2003 11:11:03 GMT -5
I agree, though that lack of heart/mind connection bleeds into the sex-thing, and I think we get the message that it did that, for Buffy & Riley. But it was very "Buffy & Riley" specific, and there is no reason, from that, to extrapolate to the general human-male public, and decide "Buffy can't be sexually satisfied by a human male." Well said, Sue! And there was also Parker (boo, hiss) - who did turn bad the morning after - but Buffy seemed to have no complaints about his stamina at the time.
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Post by Shan on Nov 16, 2003 11:20:14 GMT -5
...Or almost perfect. Has anyone addressed the fact that Buffy's superhuman stamina applies to her sexuality as well, and that she might not be satisfied with a human sexual partner? ... Yeah, me a few boards ago, and I wasn't just being my usual smutty self. Well, maybe just a little bit. There are similar "issues" in my relationship without the added difficulty of either one of us having superpowers so I'm kind of sympathetic to what her plight might be.
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Post by Shan on Nov 16, 2003 11:32:38 GMT -5
...One last point that is going to get me in trouble: a lot of ammo is handed to the Spike-haters of the world when he doesn't encourage and support the fact that Buffy is making an effort to reintegrate with the world. The rest of her friends at least make an effort to do so in this episode. Is the job crappy? Yup. Should ANYONE from the Scooby Gang have to do a job like that with the service they provide to the world? Nope. Still, Buffy is making the best of a bad situation. She needed support, not someone telling her she didn't belong there. Spike is clearly written as someone who is trying to keep her on his level rather than encourage her to readjust... I didn't see her stint at DP in that light at all, although I find your take on it interesting. I didn't see Buffy making the best of a bad situation, I saw her punishing herself with that job and it made me unhappy that her "friends" were not only allowing her to do it but "supporting" her in it as well. And I don't think Spike was trying to drag her down by getting her to leave, I thought he was trying to help her in the way that the Scoobies should have done; he cared about her (in his own way) and was the only one honest enough to try to tell her how terrible that place was for her. Shanno
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 16, 2003 11:35:11 GMT -5
Actually, that particular Spike/Buffy scene sets up a key plot point in "As You Were." I'm paraphrasing, but he essentially tells Buffy that this kind of work is (for lack of a better choice of words) beneath her. Then during her break they have what is clearly (from Buffy's perspective) meant to be empty and degrading sex by a dumpster behind a restaurant. If you check out the vacant look in her eyes during that sex scene, you'll see what I'm talking about. It's very sad to watch, and arguably Buffy hitting absolute rock bottom in Season 6. Working there is beneath her, but ravaging her by the trash while she's on break is perfectly ok, apparently. That symbolized a lot in the Buffy/Spike Season 6 "relationship." Anyway, Buffy tells Spike she has to make money somehow, and he responds with "I can get money." He never specifies how, but the rather silly evil-egg-storage-for-a- friend plot is set up by that line. I consider Doublemeat Palace to be among the worst BTVS episodes ever, by the way, and I'm not alone in that. I realize what it was supposed to make us feel about real life and debasing ourselves to survive and all that...but hey, I knew all that already. Didn't really need the reminder. Perhaps the reason "Doublemeat Palace" is so unpopular is the fact that it IS so familiar: many of us (myself included) have had to work that sort of mind-numbing job to get by at one time or another...in fact, a lot of people have mind numbing careers that pay the bills. That's just the way the world works. I just think Xander's Season 4 struggles covered the same ground in a more entertaining way. One last point that is going to get me in trouble: a lot of ammo is handed to the Spike-haters of the world when he doesn't encourage and support the fact that Buffy is making an effort to reintegrate with the world. The rest of her friends at least make an effort to do so in this episode. Is the job crappy? Yup. Should ANYONE from the Scooby Gang have to do a job like that with the service they provide to the world? Nope. Still, Buffy is making the best of a bad situation. She needed support, not someone telling her she didn't belong there. Spike is clearly written as someone who is trying to keep her on his level rather than encourage her to readjust. Let me add that I completely understand he meant well...he just saw things from a different perspective than humans would. Season 7 Spike, on the other hand, would have been much more understanding of the situation, and undoubtedly supportive of her. As much as Spike loved her (and he most certainly did) in Season 6, neither he nor Buffy were capable of being in any kind of healthy relationship until he fully restored his soul. They were poison for one another until then. Okay, now I'm confused. Does Spike tell Buffy that the work is beneath her in DOUBLEMEAT PALACE or AS YOU WERE?
<Working there is beneath her, but ravaging her by the trash while she's on break is perfectly ok, apparently. That symbolized a lot in the Buffy/Spike Season 6 "relationship." >
I don't see how mutually agreed-on sex can be called 'ravaging', though. One might argue that Buffy was heartlessly using someone who loved her sexually as a mind-numbing distraction. Truth is, Buffy was using Spike and Spike was willing to be used at that point; he knew her heart wasn't in their relationship and was so desperately in love that he'd accept any crumb of unbaked cookie-Buffy...Of course, I agree that Spike and Buffy's relationship in S6, from a rather hopeful beginning (culminating in OMWF) spiralled down into something degrading for both of them.
I'm not sure that Spike's actions in DOUBLEMEAT PALACE/AS YOU WERE are true fodder for fanatic Spikeaphobes. Soulless Spike's viewpoint was not as broad as that of Soulled Spike. Soulless Spike saw that the woman he adored was trapped in a degrading and exhausting job out of financial need; and rather than lie to her that it was alright and good, he set out to get some money for her, in the only way he knew how, so she could leave the job. Most vampires wouldn't be capable of strategizing that far on someone else's behalf.
[glow=purple,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by Rob on Nov 16, 2003 12:08:37 GMT -5
I didn't see her stint at DP in that light at all, although I find your take on it interesting. I didn't see Buffy making the best of a bad situation, I saw her punishing herself with that job and it made me unhappy that her "friends" were not only allowing her to do it but "supporting" her in it as well. And I don't think Spike was trying to drag her down by getting her to leave, I thought he was trying to help her in the way that the Scoobies should have done; he cared about her (in his own way) and was the only one honest enough to try to tell her how terrible that place was for her. Shanno So are you saying that young people who worked at McDonalds to get by should have been discouraged from working by their friends? Buffy needed money to support her family. She got a job wherever she could get it, and that was a commendable thing. What exactly should she have done? Buffy, while a Slayer, is as human as anyone else. She was no better than Willow, Dawn or Xander. I doubt anyone would have discouraged THEM from working at a fast food restaurant. In the regular, just getting by human world, Spike couldn't help her in a normal way. Like I said, I think Spike thought he was doing the right thing for her, but there was an awful lot of the right thing or HIM mixed in. Spike was no dummy. He knew if Buffy clawed her way out of that grave psychologically she would no longer seek him out physically. Therefore he instinctively took steps to keep her where she was. "In the dark with me," was his quote as I recall. They were just terrible for each other that year for a whole bunch of reasons. What I have a hard time understanding is people who say it was a one way street...that Buffy shouldn't have treated the helplessly--in-love Spike the way she did. As if he were a victim and nothing more. I completely agree with fact that she shouldn't have used him. It hurt him terribly, and it was wrong. I also think Spike manipulated her at times so he could get at least something approaching what he truly wanted, though he knew perfectly damn well it wasn't going to happen. They hurt each other.
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Post by Rob on Nov 16, 2003 12:14:54 GMT -5
True, this has been mentioned, but like you Rob, I don't think there is any real support for the idea that Buffy can't be sexually satisfied by a human male because of her super-stamina. Her superstamina is well, just that. It doesn't equal "super sex drive." I don't think it is "because he is human" but I do think that the scene in which Buffy leaves Riley's bed in order to get some satisfaction slaying was meant to imply that she was not being sexually satisfied. And I think Riley later leaving her bed for vamp-ho's implied the same. It was all tangled up in them not satisifying each other in many other ways as well. So I agree with you that there is nothing in the show to give us the idea Buffy could never be fully sexually satisfied by a regular male. I do believe she could be. No reason not to believe it. But I disagree with the idea that we got no clear message that Buffy wasn't fully satisfied with Riley, sexually and otherwise (or if truth be told, he with her). And we got the message ad nauseum that B/S were very sexually satisifed with one another, though of course, that didn't turn out to be enough. Ok, that sounds pretty much like you agree with my basic point, so I'm a happy guy. The cause of Buffy and Riley's distance from one another can be debated in a lot of ways, but I don't happen to think sex was a major factor. Funny how no one ever mentions the possibility of Buffy not satisfying HIM sexually. He almost says that in their big final argument in "Into the Woods," but leans more toward the emotional I think. Either way I'm veering off-topic here. Point is we're pretty much sympatico, Spring.
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Post by Rob on Nov 16, 2003 12:20:47 GMT -5
Okay, now I'm confused. Does Spike tell Buffy that the work is beneath her in DOUBLEMEAT PALACE or AS YOU WERE?
<Working there is beneath her, but ravaging her by the trash while she's on break is perfectly ok, apparently. That symbolized a lot in the Buffy/Spike Season 6 "relationship." >
I don't see how mutually agreed-on sex can be called 'ravaging', though. One might argue that Buffy was heartlessly using someone who loved her sexually as a mind-numbing distraction. Truth is, Buffy was using Spike and Spike was willing to be used at that point; he knew her heart wasn't in their relationship and was so desperately in love that he'd accept any crumb of unbaked cookie-Buffy...Of course, I agree that Spike and Buffy's relationship in S6, from a rather hopeful beginning (culminating in OMWF) spiralled down into something degrading for both of them.
I'm not sure that Spike's actions in DOUBLEMEAT PALACE/AS YOU WERE are true fodder for fanatic Spikeaphobes. Soulless Spike's viewpoint was not as broad as that of Soulled Spike. Soulless Spike saw that the woman he adored was trapped in a degrading and exhausting job out of financial need; and rather than lie to her that it was alright and good, he set out to get some money for her, in the only way he knew how, so she could leave the job. Most vampires wouldn't be capable of strategizing that far on someone else's behalf.
[glow=purple,2,300]GAIL [/glow] He told her the job was beneath her in Doublemeat Palace, and said he could "get money." As You Were was where that idea came to fruition...sort of. I never said Buffy didn't agree to the sex. I AM saying that Spike's definition of what is beneath her and what isn't is screwy. Not entirely his fault...he's a vampire, with a vampire's moral code. Again, I think Season 7 Spike would have been more supportive of Buffy's efforts. I think a good man should have respected the fact that she was willing to do whatever she had to.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 16, 2003 12:49:04 GMT -5
So are you saying that young people who worked at McDonalds to get by should have been discouraged from working by their friends? Buffy needed money to support her family. She got a job wherever she could get it, and that was a commendable thing. What exactly should she have done? Buffy, while a Slayer, is as human as anyone else. She was no better than Willow, Dawn or Xander. I doubt anyone would have discouraged THEM from working at a fast food restaurant. In the regular, just getting by human world, Spike couldn't help her in a normal way. Like I said, I think Spike thought he was doing the right thing for her, but there was an awful lot of the right thing or HIM mixed in. Spike was no dummy. He knew if Buffy clawed her way out of that grave psychologically she would no longer seek him out physically. Therefore he instinctively took steps to keep her where she was. "In the dark with me," was his quote as I recall. They were just terrible for each other that year for a whole bunch of reasons. What I have a hard time understanding is people who say it was a one way street...that Buffy shouldn't have treated the helplessly--in-love Spike the way she did. As if he were a victim and nothing more. I completely agree with fact that she shouldn't have used him. It hurt him terribly, and it was wrong. I also think Spike manipulated her at times so he could get at least something approaching what he truly wanted, though he knew perfectly damn well it wasn't going to happen. They hurt each other. I think young people who had possible other options should not be encouraged to take a job at McDonalds by their friends. A girl like Buffy, young, pretty, perky, should have been able to easily get an entry-level retail job in a clothes store. Anya and Giles could have fibbed and given her glowing recommendations. If she didn't get a job like that, she should have kept sending out applications and interviewing until she got a retail job; rather than staying in a job that was so abhorrent to her. She should have charged Willow for rent and made Dawn get an after-school job. She could have at least tried to bully the Council into giving her a stipend.
And yes, I would have discouraged Willow from working in a fast-food restaurant. With a brain and computer skills and academic records like she had, she could certainly get a better job, part time or full time.
I don't think Spike was that consciously manipulative as to deliberately and blatantly encourage Buffy's despair. If he was that desperate to keep her psychologically "in the dark", he wouldn't have offered to get money for her, money that would have helped free her from a soul-destroying job.
I don't think of S6 Spike as purely a victim. He knew that Buffy was in a bad place psychologically, and I think he tried, in his own way, to get her out of it, by loving her and being there for her. Buffy was the one who initiated their sexual relationship; and Spike went along with it, though he often tried to demonstrate tenderness and affection as well as sexual passion. Spike didn't have enough pride in himself to walk away from Buffy's use of him, at least not permanently. For Buffy, the sex with Spike was a lifeline; she was drowning and it was the only thing that made her feel alive. The only thing I blame Buffy for is the roughness and then the cruelty she displayed towards him, verbally and physically.
[glow=purple,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by Shan on Nov 16, 2003 12:50:03 GMT -5
So are you saying that young people who worked at McDonalds to get by should have been discouraged from working by their friends? Buffy needed money to support her family. She got a job wherever she could get it, and that was a commendable thing. What exactly should she have done? Buffy, while a Slayer, is as human as anyone else. She was no better than Willow, Dawn or Xander. I doubt anyone would have discouraged THEM from working at a fast food restaurant. Young people working at fast food joints IRL is a different situation. I worked at a fast food joint between HS and college; I know what it's like. IMO, Buffy working at a fast food joint to support her family is a different situation. ME didn't explore many options for her before dumping her into the DMP, and I think they did it for a reason: pile on the Buffy unhappiness, show just how impossible it is for her to integrate into the "real" world, highlight how much she *can't* readjust. Of course, there were other practical options that could have been explored in the series, such as her friends actually helping her out financially. That would have been an easy out for ME, though, and consequently too easy an out for Buffy. Hence, my comment that she was punishing herself with the job. In the regular, just getting by human world, Spike couldn't help her in a normal way. Like I said, I think Spike thought he was doing the right thing for her, but there was an awful lot of the right thing or HIM mixed in. Spike was no dummy. He knew if Buffy clawed her way out of that grave psychologically she would no longer seek him out physically. Therefore he instinctively took steps to keep her where she was. "In the dark with me," was his quote as I recall. I don't see how encouraging her to give up a job that was killing her is trying to keep her "in the dark" with him. If he wanted to keep her run down enough to keep from being able to make the decision to keep away from him, staying at the DMP would surely have done it. That's just my take. They were just terrible for each other that year for a whole bunch of reasons. What I have a hard time understanding is people who say it was a one way street...that Buffy shouldn't have treated the helplessly--in-love Spike the way she did. As if he were a victim and nothing more. I completely agree with fact that she shouldn't have used him. It hurt him terribly, and it was wrong. I also think Spike manipulated her at times so he could get at least something approaching what he truly wanted, though he knew perfectly damn well it wasn't going to happen. They hurt each other. That's true, they did hurt each other. They used each other. People do that. I agree with you that it wasn't a one-way street. The part that I don't like about it is that the whole time she was beating him bloody and berating him for being an "evil soulless thing" she was treating him as badly if not worse than he had treated her. For the record, I thought the whole AR thing was silly. They should have used something else to lead into the soul-seeking thing. I didn't buy it and I didn't buy her later nervousness around him. Different discussion from DMP, though, I guess. Shanno
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Post by makd on Nov 16, 2003 13:06:26 GMT -5
So are you saying that young people who worked at McDonalds to get by should have been discouraged from working by their friends? Buffy needed money to support her family. She got a job wherever she could get it, and that was a commendable thing. What exactly should she have done? Buffy, while a Slayer, is as human as anyone else. She was no better than Willow, Dawn or Xander. I doubt anyone would have discouraged THEM from working at a fast food restaurant. In the regular, just getting by human world, Spike couldn't help her in a normal way. Like I said, I think Spike thought he was doing the right thing for her, but there was an awful lot of the right thing or HIM mixed in. Spike was no dummy. He knew if Buffy clawed her way out of that grave psychologically she would no longer seek him out physically. Therefore he instinctively took steps to keep her where she was. "In the dark with me," was his quote as I recall. They were just terrible for each other that year for a whole bunch of reasons. What I have a hard time understanding is people who say it was a one way street...that Buffy shouldn't have treated the helplessly--in-love Spike the way she did. As if he were a victim and nothing more. I completely agree with fact that she shouldn't have used him. It hurt him terribly, and it was wrong. I also think Spike manipulated her at times so he could get at least something approaching what he truly wanted, though he knew perfectly damn well it wasn't going to happen. They hurt each other. Rob ITA. Spike is totally love's bitch; a fool for love. As I said in one of my postings last night, if Buffy had asked him to wear Coleridge's 80 pound albatross, he'd have done it. He loved Buffy - but a big part of the attraction, IMO, is his insight that Buffy _needs_ the dark side - the demon side - to help her channel her energy into superslaying. He wanted her in the dark with him; he needed her in the dark with him. After having seen season 6 three times now, and season 7 twice, my views on them have altered. I now see them both as sad and pathetic. Spike wants to be loved, needs to be loved, to reaffirm himself, to have an affirmation of who HE is. That's why I think he needs to be in LA; needs to be away from the Scoobies and Buffy; needs to dig deeper and see who he is now - as Souled!Spike. He did a lot of work last year, and came out a winner. Now, he's on another path - and he needs to be un-attached to a woman. He needs to know who Spike's bitch is, not Love's bitch. He wanted to take Buffy to a dark world. Think about it: this from a person who's always been obsessed with "glowing". He was so desperate, so obsessed, so very sad, so willing to be the victim. You always hurt the one you love. He took that mantra and made it real. Buffy came back dead inside, and sought out the only person who needed to connect with a living being to feel alive. She came back almost as soulless as Spike; selfish, destructive, self-destructive, cold, a bitch. That scene in DoubleMeat Palace, with Buffy and Spike screwing by the trash bin is just about the saddest sex scene (between 2 consenting adults) I have ever seen. Pathetic. Chekhov couldn't have done it better. Just so sad. Which is why I think DMP is really a much better episode than we think. I mean, how great is the sex when you're boinking by the trash bin, and the look on your face is, "Hurry up; my break is over in 5 minutes.", and the guy you're doing it with is so desperate to do it with you that he'll do it there - by the trash. Goddess, but that said it all about that relationship. They may have taken down a building the first time, but that building was condemned. such losers. so far down, they should have stopped digging. Nowhere to go but up ---- up to breaking it off, up to Entropy (and yes, that WAS an ascent!), up to the AR (We tend to think the AR was the pit; it wasn't; it forced both of them to do some thinking, a think which needed to be thought.); up to the SOUL-GETTING; up to the acceptance of responsibility for a dreadful year - anno horribilis - for both of them. up, up, and away--- to a better relationship, albeit non-sexual - in season 7. To the work of creating a relationship with some depth and purpose. to the act of heroism and martyrdom. To the act of choosing. To freedom from slaying, to attachment to LA and thereby, to freedom from W&H, and further along the path to autonomy for Spike. And for Buffy. Here's hoping she's growing up some in Europe. And that Spike can do some growing up in LA. And that's another thing - Buffy did some growing up on the Hellmouth. Lorne said that lots of people confuse LA with hell; maybe his time in LA/Hell will help Spike to grow up too. I hope so, cause he's my favorite vampire, with a soul or without. (I always have a soft spot for the rebels.) I realize this sounds as if I don't love Spike and I don't love Buffy --- au contraire. I love the way they try; I love the way they do....and yadda, yadda, from Touched. I feel that way about all the characters on BtVS. Quoting myself: I love those kids. I include Spike as one of the kids. And, clearly, he's my favorite kid. Hoping I will soon feel that way about all the characters on Angel.
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Post by Sue on Nov 16, 2003 14:27:01 GMT -5
That scene in DoubleMeat Palace, with Buffy and Spike screwing by the trash bin is just about the saddest sex scene (between 2 consenting adults) I have ever seen. Pathetic. Chekhov couldn't have done it better. Just so sad. Which is why I think DMP is really a much better episode than we think. I mean, how great is the sex when you're boinking by the trash bin, and the look on your face is, "Hurry up; my break is over in 5 minutes.", and the guy you're doing it with is so desperate to do it with you that he'll do it there - by the trash. Goddess, but that said it all about that relationship. They may have taken down a building the first time, but that building was condemned. such losers. so far down, they should have stopped digging. Nowhere to go but up ---- up to breaking it off, up to Entropy (and yes, that WAS an ascent!), up to the AR (We tend to think the AR was the pit; it wasn't; it forced both of them to do some thinking, a think which needed to be thought.); up to the SOUL-GETTING; up to the acceptance of responsibility for a dreadful year - anno horribilis - for both of them. up, up, and away--- to a better relationship, albeit non-sexual - in season 7. To the work of creating a relationship with some depth and purpose. to the act of heroism and martyrdom. To the act of choosing. To freedom from slaying, to attachment to LA and thereby, to freedom from W&H, and further along the path to autonomy for Spike. And for Buffy. Here's hoping she's growing up some in Europe. And that Spike can do some growing up in LA. This is truly a magnificent observation. And it does help me to see DP in an entirely different light. I think you've really hit on something. And...if I may extend the thought. ME did the fast, rough sex in an alley by the trash scene so we couldn't miss the metaphor for reaching rock bottom. In my opinion (see early post re my hot button) you see similar scenes in entertainment media on an hourly basis, but since they are not so blatant you don't immediately recognize them. I.e. the beautiful people in beautiful clothes in beautiful appartments in Friends or Sex in the City and having mindless sex with people they don't even know and no connection whatsoever and hoping that this will somehow bring meaning into their lives! Assuming somehow that they will recognize "the one" via their sexual encounters. What is scary to me is the sense that this concept is so totally pervasive in Hollywood that it must actually grow out of the core beliefs of writers, producers, actors, etc. So, so sad. And it angers me that the rest of society, especially the youth, buy into this perverted viewpoint and support it financially. Unfortunately, I guess they aren't given many alternatives. I'm so glad that, even with two "serious" boyfriends Rory (Gilmore Girls) has made it all the way to college as a virgin. I suspect I will be very sad when the writer's feel it is necesary have her sleep with someone to depict a "realistic" college girl. Stay away from Rory, Marti Noxon!
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Post by ellie on Nov 16, 2003 15:21:49 GMT -5
Stepping gingerly into the fray here I have gone back and forth about the Doublemeat Palace episode- sometimes I find bits of it brilliant but overall it plays as kind of lame but necessary bridge to underlying themes in the series. As far as the does Buffy need supersized sex- I guess I would argue that every one of her relationships (except Parker) was shown to be nuanced and complicated whether with human or demon. The moments she shared with Xander were erotic and one can surmise that they would have been imaginative enough to "compensate" for any "shortcomings?" of the perceived benefits demonic energy might convey. Riley was the one who felt he did not measure up to Buffy and he accused her of being incapable of fulfilling his fantasies which he promptly sated with a demon. The one time they did engage in unrelenting seual escapades( Where the Wild things are) they both seemed fine with the quality- it was the demonic forces that made them insatiable. I just don't see the justification for assuming Buffy would be physically insatiable- more likely she would be completely erotically supercharged and able to derive pleasure more fully than her human counterparts. Her sex with Spike was... taboo, erotic, fueled by passion and self disgust and reckless disregard for the consequences. Their interludes were shown in varying degrees to be; tenderness and trepidation degenerating to betrayal and regret(As You Were); passion, violence, stamina and abandon degenerating to recriminations and bravado(Smashed,Wrecked.) The developing theme seemed to be that the context for their passion doomed its varying positive elements to the overwhelming negative outcome of its flowering.
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Post by ellie on Nov 16, 2003 15:30:11 GMT -5
Sorry- I got nervous and thought my posting might be lost if I did not send it- Buffy's relationship with Angel was tender,passionate and oh so truncated. I mean the poor girl doesn't even remember their most extended interlude so it stands to reason that Angel remains enshrined in her memory- she never even got to wake up to bad breath ( do vampires even have bad mouth odor? I mean blood odor has got to linger even if not transmitted by actual breath- I digress.) I always took the vampire metaphor to be sign of overwhelming passion- I mean Angel goes into vamp face the first time he kisses Buffy- I did not take that to mean he was more supercharged and so physically dynamic but that the feelings he could engender in her would be that much more lit by his corresponding passion. So as long as Buffy was with a suitably passionate mate whether human or not was beyond the point. I mean what could the Master have offered her? He was a dry old goat even supposing he had wanted to seduce her. Wasn't that why Darla chose Angel over the immeasureably more seasoned Master? Hierarchies of feeling,passion and impulse. Spike trumps humans and demons in that regard. And it looks like Angel is in the process of learning to re-integrate those very currents in his present life on ATS.
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Post by ellie on Nov 16, 2003 15:46:39 GMT -5
Ok one last gasp-
Buffy's work life and her friends' responses
I think Spike and the various Scoobies must always be evaluated in terms of the individual's history with Buffy. I don't think there is any one wrong or right take on how they responded to her job at Doublemeat Palace.
Those jobs exist b/c they serve a function- A good number of people need jobs they can fit into their schedules that do not require any other than the time committment of actually being in place at shift start.
Buffy was in a quandry about where to fit her vocation into how to structure her future. Remember in Season 7 both Wood and Willow derided Buffy's questionable "talents" as a guidance counselor- a job for which she had no credentials and no training but that both had initially encouraged her to think she had some aptitude for attempting.
The Scoobies were very wrapped up in their own lives- they nominally supported Buffy ( just as she nominally supported but ignored Willows's attempts to stem her increasing addiction to magics) frenzied jabs at workplace independence.
It was complicated. which of us can say we have actually saved our friends from bad or disastrous decisions? I am not saying it never happens- just that it is honored more in the breach than the observance. After all they are sentient adults and we have our own disasters to attend.
As far as Spike- of course he had ulterior motives in informing Buffy that she oughtn't work at Doublemeat. Chief among them- those were hours she could not shag him ( save for the lonely by the dumpster moments.) He was also responding to the obvious misery he say in her eyes and chivalrous to the extreme(this is after all the man who "saved' his sainted mum form a lingering death by condeming her to soulessness.) Again - it was complicated.
Spike knew Buffy only saw him in "stolen" moments-( since she kept their relationship hidden- no way was she going to the coffee shop with him_no normalcy there) he was her "backstreet boy" and that is a guaranteed way to make a moral quagmire for even a saint.
so- her job decisions and the responses are all shaded by almost impossible to reconcile issues of agency, independence and compromise.
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