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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Nov 16, 2003 15:58:44 GMT -5
See, I have this lovely avatar (thanks to Patti ) in need of a good, snarky caption. I went through the transcript of the scene, and I'm not inspired, at least right now. Somehow, the line about the marshmallows just doesn't thrill me. So, S'cubies, any suggestions?
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Post by Sue on Nov 16, 2003 16:38:34 GMT -5
Hello to Dori who is signed on at the moment. However, with the size of the site it's impossible to know where she is around here at the moment.
Check your messages, Dori, I sent you a "hello."
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 16, 2003 16:43:55 GMT -5
Hey, Dori, howdy-do! Revisiting my last post, I also wanted to say that it's the subtext (IMHO) that lifts BtVS/AtS above most TV series into the realm of great storytelling. The show has layers, (blooming) onions have layers, Spike has layers...ok, I'll stop now.
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Post by Kerrie on Nov 16, 2003 16:47:16 GMT -5
The Scoobies were very wrapped up in their own lives- they nominally supported Buffy ( just as she nominally supported but ignored Willows's attempts to stem her increasing addiction to magics) frenzied jabs at workplace independence. It was complicated. which of us can say we have actually saved our friends from bad or disastrous decisions? I am not saying it never happens- just that it is honored more in the breach than the observance. After all they are sentient adults and we have our own disasters to attend. As far as Spike- of course he had ulterior motives in informing Buffy that she oughtn't work at Doublemeat. Chief among them- those were hours she could not shag him ( save for the lonely by the dumpster moments.) He was also responding to the obvious misery he say in her eyes and chivalrous to the extreme(this is after all the man who "saved' his sainted mum form a lingering death by condeming her to soulessness.) Again - it was complicated. I think this is a good point. It is difficult to meddle in other people's lives by commenting about the suitability of it. As an outsider one can never know how much of the picture one is seeing. So with an uneasy conscience one says nothing rather than offending or giving bad advice. (Good or bad advice only being acknowledged in the unseen future and not in the present.) Thus, Spike, the vampire without a conscience says what he thinks because he does not have his consicience nagging him about whether he is right to give his advice. (In the house analogy of a million years ago - he just tramps in, without waiting for the invitation.) If Sue objects to the depiction of sex on TV I object to the depiction of friendship on TV. In the real world it is not easy to give unwanted advice for most people. There are all kinds of ethical problems, the chief of which is whether the advice is good advice or just meddling and the presumption of knowing more than one's friends. So you watch your friends walking into trouble and you try to warn them subtly about their danger, but the warnings are almost always too subtle so you are left just hoping that you are wrong and that they will be fine. In short count me as one of the people who wouldn't have given Buffy advice about staying or leaving her job, but may have been looking for something more suitable for her. Making garden stakes perhaps?
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 16, 2003 17:00:19 GMT -5
I think this is a good point. It is difficult to meddle in other people's lives by commenting about the suitability of it. As an outsider one can never know how much of the picture one is seeing. So with an uneasy conscience one says nothing rather than offending or giving bad advice. (Good or bad advice only being acknowledged in the unseen future and not in the present.) Thus, Spike, the vampire without a conscience says what he thinks because he does not have his consicience nagging him about whether he is right to give his advice. (In the house analogy of a million years ago - he just tramps in, without waiting for the invitation.) If Sue objects to the depiction of sex on TV I object to the depiction of friendship on TV. In the real world it is not easy to give unwanted advice for most people. There are all kinds of ethical problems, the chief of which is whether the advice is good advice or just meddling and the presumption of knowing more than one's friends. So you watch your friends walking into trouble and you try to warn them subtly about their danger, but the warnings are almost always too subtle so you are left just hoping that you are wrong and that they will be fine. In short count me as one of the people who wouldn't have given Buffy advice about staying or leaving her job, but may have been looking for something more suitable for her. Making garden stakes perhaps? Excellent point. I know I've gotten myself in trouble by saying something I shouldn't have, despite my good intentions. Haven't we all been there a time or three? Spike sees how cr*ppy Buffy's job at the DP is, and he hates seeing her so demoralized. Unfortunately, her calling as the slayer really doesn't give her many options when it comes to outside employment. It still boggles my mind why (outside of story ideas), the CoW didn't take better care of their Slayer. A job is a distraction. It takes her away from her duties. I'm shocked they allowed Nikki to have a child, let alone keep him. Unless she got her calling later, or had him when she was younger.
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Post by Sue on Nov 16, 2003 17:05:14 GMT -5
If Sue objects to the depiction of sex on TV I object to the depiction of friendship on TV. Yeah, let's just object to 99% of what's on TV in general (thin women, stupid men, superficial lives, marriages in which the husbands and wives snark on each other constantly and yet are still assumed to be in love, children who are always smarter than their parents, and let's ask our lawyers how realistic stuff like "The Practice" is. Again, why do we revel in Buffy and Angel?--it's about the writing! Bizarrely in it's totally supernatural demon and vampire-ful universe it depicts real-life so much better than anything else out there. And it challenges us to take both ourselves and our world and make them a better place.
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Post by deborah on Nov 16, 2003 17:15:43 GMT -5
Actually, that particular Spike/Buffy scene sets up a key plot point in "As You Were." I'm paraphrasing, but he essentially tells Buffy that this kind of work is (for lack of a better choice of words) beneath her. Then during her break they have what is clearly (from Buffy's perspective) meant to be empty and degrading sex by a dumpster behind a restaurant. If you check out the vacant look in her eyes during that sex scene, you'll see what I'm talking about. It's very sad to watch, and arguably Buffy hitting absolute rock bottom in Season 6. Working there is beneath her, but ravaging her by the trash while she's on break is perfectly ok, apparently. That symbolized a lot in the Buffy/Spike Season 6 "relationship." Anyway, Buffy tells Spike she has to make money somehow, and he responds with "I can get money." He never specifies how, but the rather silly evil-egg-storage-for-a- friend plot is set up by that line. I consider Doublemeat Palace to be among the worst BTVS episodes ever, by the way, and I'm not alone in that. I realize what it was supposed to make us feel about real life and debasing ourselves to survive and all that...but hey, I knew all that already. Didn't really need the reminder. Perhaps the reason "Doublemeat Palace" is so unpopular is the fact that it IS so familiar: many of us (myself included) have had to work that sort of mind-numbing job to get by at one time or another...in fact, a lot of people have mind numbing careers that pay the bills. That's just the way the world works. I just think Xander's Season 4 struggles covered the same ground in a more entertaining way. Someone as brilliant as Jane Espenson should be allowed to have the occasional lackluster outing. It was an interesting idea that just didn't work for me. One last point that is going to get me in trouble: a lot of ammo is handed to the Spike-haters of the world when he doesn't encourage and support the fact that Buffy is making an effort to reintegrate with the world. The rest of her friends at least make an effort to do so in this episode. Is the job crappy? Yup. Should ANYONE from the Scooby Gang have to do a job like that with the service they provide to the world? Nope. Still, Buffy is making the best of a bad situation. She needed support, not someone telling her she didn't belong there. Spike is clearly written as someone who is trying to keep her on his level rather than encourage her to readjust. Let me add that I completely understand he meant well...he just saw things from a different perspective than humans would. Season 7 Spike, on the other hand, would have been much more understanding of the situation, and undoubtedly supportive of her. As much as Spike loved her (and he most certainly did) in Season 6, neither he nor Buffy were capable of being in any kind of healthy relationship until he fully restored his soul. They were poison for one another until then. Gotta disagree with you here, Rob. Yes, Buffy needed a job to earn some money but the notion that she had no options other that scrapping the bottom of the barrel at the DMP was prepostorous and ruined the episode for me right from the start. Even without penis-head lady I still would have hated it. Yes, Buffy was an unskilled college drop-out. Guess what? So am I. But I don't have to work for the likes of a DMP and neither did she. They justified her taking such a job because she needed to start earning fast; a job that wouldn't entail a prolonged interview and training process. But fast food was not her only option. Retail wouldn't have paid her much, if any, more than she earned at the DMP, but at least the mall would have offered her a far more congenial atmosphere more suited to her temperment and personality where she could go to work fashionably turned out and enjoy a valuable employee discount for merchandise she really liked. I could see Buffy working at a Macy's or Bloomingdales, or even at the kind of shoe store where she would like to shop herself. It just seems to me that a young woman like Buffy would have sought unskilled employment in a retail setting for stylish-women's apparel rather than ever setting foot in a fast food establishment so the whole premise of DMP rang false for me. And when Spike tried to convince her that she needed to get out because that kind of work would kill her his words and sentiment held a ring of truth with which I was in full agreement.
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Dori
S'cubie
Jumping 'Ship...
Posts: 33
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Post by Dori on Nov 16, 2003 17:27:30 GMT -5
<waving>
Hi, all! Nan asked me here ages ago, and, well, I'm sort of slow...
Some of you know me already. For those as don't, I do the Spikefeed, and I like Riley. Yes, Riley Finn.
Thank you for the welcome!
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Post by karalee on Nov 16, 2003 17:36:16 GMT -5
<waving> Hi, all! Nan asked me here ages ago, and, well, I'm sort of slow... Some of you know me already. For those as don't, I do the Spikefeed, and I like Riley. Yes, Riley Finn. Thank you for the welcome! Hi Dori. Yes I do know you. Dori's Spikefeed is one of the stops for all my spoiler needs ;D Nice to see you here.
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Post by Kerrie on Nov 16, 2003 17:37:02 GMT -5
<waving> Hi, all! Nan asked me here ages ago, and, well, I'm sort of slow... Some of you know me already. For those as don't, I do the Spikefeed, and I like Riley. Yes, Riley Finn. Thank you for the welcome! You do the Spikefeed?! I knew your name was familiar. In the days of being a total spoiler whore, I used to love reading your Spikefeed. It was one of the best things on the Tabula Rasa site (and that is saying something, because there was a lot of great things there). I will join in the chorus of welcomes. I am so glad you are here.
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Post by Wendy on Nov 16, 2003 17:41:18 GMT -5
I think young people who had possible other options should not be encouraged to take a job at McDonalds by their friends. A girl like Buffy, young, pretty, perky, should have been able to easily get an entry-level retail job in a clothes store. Anya and Giles could have fibbed and given her glowing recommendations. If she didn't get a job like that, she should have kept sending out applications and interviewing until she got a retail job; rather than staying in a job that was so abhorrent to her. She should have charged Willow for rent and made Dawn get an after-school job. She could have at least tried to bully the Council into giving her a stipend.
And yes, I would have discouraged Willow from working in a fast-food restaurant. With a brain and computer skills and academic records like she had, she could certainly get a better job, part time or full time.
I don't think Spike was that consciously manipulative as to deliberately and blatantly encourage Buffy's despair. If he was that desperate to keep her psychologically "in the dark", he wouldn't have offered to get money for her, money that would have helped free her from a soul-destroying job.
I don't think of S6 Spike as purely a victim. He knew that Buffy was in a bad place psychologically, and I think he tried, in his own way, to get her out of it, by loving her and being there for her. Buffy was the one who initiated their sexual relationship; and Spike went along with it, though he often tried to demonstrate tenderness and affection as well as sexual passion. Spike didn't have enough pride in himself to walk away from Buffy's use of him, at least not permanently. For Buffy, the sex with Spike was a lifeline; she was drowning and it was the only thing that made her feel alive. The only thing I blame Buffy for is the roughness and then the cruelty she displayed towards him, verbally and physically.
[glow=purple,2,300]GAIL [/glow] I have always maintained the idea that Giles should have been more help to her financially. He was getting paid by the Council, and Buffy even helped him get his salary back retroactively, so you know he came into a nice lump of cash. Add to that the Magic Box money he made, he could have been more supportive. I know he gave her some money in Life Serial but that was to help with the plumbing and such as well. He could have at least advocated on her behalf to the Council to try and get her some money, not that they would have complied, but it would have shown he understood her dilemma. I mean, she all the sudden has a teenage "daughter" to raise, the Council and Giles should have realized she would need some help to keep fighting the forces of evil. That's just my opinion, of course, I could be wrong.
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Post by Sue on Nov 16, 2003 17:43:39 GMT -5
<waving> Hi, all! Nan asked me here ages ago, and, well, I'm sort of slow... Some of you know me already. For those as don't, I do the Spikefeed, and I like Riley. Yes, Riley Finn. Thank you for the welcome! Well, my stars, do we have any other Riley fans? I mean, I know we have members who don't hate Riley but I'm thinking Dori is to Riley what Vlad is to Kennedy. You do the Spikefeed at what site? (oops--lightbulb on--Tabula Rasa right?) Cool. We definitely have members who rate the greatness or lameness of an episode pretty much exclusively on the quantity and quality of Spike-time. Glad to have you here. Sue
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Post by karalee on Nov 16, 2003 17:47:03 GMT -5
Grrr Argghh! Buffy.nu is a good place to get downloads and spoiler bits, but the pictures never show up. They have an article that has AD, DB, JM, ED and SMG as the stars with sex appeal. JM was #1, but the pictures won't show up. Grrrr Arghhh!
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Post by Wendy on Nov 16, 2003 17:57:34 GMT -5
Gotta disagree with you here, Rob. Yes, Buffy needed a job to earn some money but the notion that she had no options other that scrapping the bottom of the barrel at the DMP was prepostorous and ruined the episode for me right from the start. Even without penis-head lady I still would have hated it. Yes, Buffy was an unskilled college drop-out. Guess what? So am I. But I don't have to work for the likes of a DMP and neither did she. They justified her taking such a job because she needed to start earning fast; a job that wouldn't entail a prolonged interview and training process. But fast food was not her only option. Retail wouldn't have paid her much, if any, more than she earned at the DMP, but at least the mall would have offered her a far more congenial atmosphere more suited to her temperment and personality where she could go to work fashionably turned out and enjoy a valuable employee discount for merchandise she really liked. I could see Buffy working at a Macy's or Bloomingdales, or even at the kind of shoe store where she would like to shop herself. It just seems to me that a young woman like Buffy would have sought unskilled employment in a retail setting for stylish-women's apparel rather than ever setting foot in a fast food establishment so the whole premise of DMP rang false for me. And when Spike tried to convince her that she needed to get out because that kind of work would kill her his words and sentiment held a ring of truth with which I was in full agreement. I believe she wanted a job that felt like punishment. Thinking about where he mindset was at this time, I don't think she felt like she deserved a better job. Heaven didn't want her, why would Macy's?
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Post by Shan on Nov 16, 2003 18:04:19 GMT -5
IWRY is on [glow=red,2,300]right now![/glow]
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