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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 19, 2003 3:38:21 GMT -5
I'm putting a spoiler ******** on the Spoiled Souls thread.
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Post by Sue on Nov 19, 2003 3:41:55 GMT -5
or that your grandmother died! ;D Mary, (I may have to call you Mary D and the other Mary, Mary S.) I copied part of that article and sent the link to the rest to my college kids. My son reports that before he was half way thru he was rolling on the floor laughing and it planning of sending it out to his entire listserv (which probably includes all of the kids in his dorm and his major at NU). Wouldn't be surprised if it is soon making internet rounds at colleges everywhere. Thanks. Sue
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Post by Sue on Nov 19, 2003 3:43:02 GMT -5
So he's powerless? If he saved the world through love May we all be weak. ***** (5 stars) Rob- I wrote to nw hepcat. I've posted her reply on the fanfic thread. You may want to take a look--your name is in the text. Sue
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Post by Sue on Nov 19, 2003 3:45:28 GMT -5
Patti,
Thanks for starting the Spike-ku thread.
If I must have insomnia is nice to know there are other people up as well.
Sue
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Post by Sue on Nov 19, 2003 3:46:14 GMT -5
You all may want to be sure to rate 5.7 before watching 5.8. I'll try to tally the numbers tomorrow.
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Post by Kerrie on Nov 19, 2003 6:06:51 GMT -5
Overall I was not impressed with these two episodes. Spike’s behaviour – his single-minded pursuit of finding an escape seemed disappointingly selfish even if very human under the circumstances. It did not help that the gruesome twosome would not settle – in fact they howled (and he kicked his door) through it.
SPIKE
In episodes 3 and 4 we see Spike at his most manipulative. He tries to give Fred some story about why he can’t ask Wes for help. He flirts with Fred hoping that she will help him. However, the flirtation is purely manipulative because (a) he loves Buffy and (b) when given the opportunity to see (or rather chivalrously not see) Fred whilst she takes a shower he paces around trying to find ways of communicating who is opponent is. In short I believe that Spike s largely asexual at this point in time and even his apparent flirting does not dissuade me from this viewpoint. He also begins to learn the lesson of controlling his impulses – to concentrate – if he is to communicate, to become corporeal and to stay out of hell. In the episode, Spike also learns about the shanshu prophesy and the possible reward for doing right and not just the “feel good” element. I thought that Spike’s vanishing into hell was the result of his guilty conscience and fears which would become activated when he was able to reflect on his past (eg when the FG ignored him).
FRED Fred knows that Spike is using her, but wants to help him anyway. She does not like him sneaking up on her, but does not seem disturbed by the thought that he is in the bathroom with her whilst she takes a shower. The fact that Spike is partially using her is apparent by the fact that he is not interested by her overworked state. He rates his vanishing as higher on her priority list than he getting enough to eat or sleep time. Fred’s true friends/lovers, Wes and Gunn, were duly concerned about her. Fred expects this level of concern from Angel, but she is mistaken. Angel is more concerned about the bottom-line and so doesn’t notice her obvious fatigue. I was concerned to notice how quick Fred was to break Spike’s confidence in her. I am not sure what this signifies.
ANGEL I was interested to see that Angel was interested in the Buffy-look alike, but this was not explored and may have simply been Angel and the writers trying to take some of the heat off Spike. After all Angel is also an attractive champion, if you like brunettes (and I don’t).
GUNN
The explicit pressure on Gunn about his deal with W&H has started. I suppose we should be grateful that it is actually being expressed and not just left simmering. I liked the fact that Gunn stood up for himself and said that he was just using his cognitive potential (I can’t remember his phrasing). It was interesting that Gunn has made another secret deal with the conduit (even if he did not know it was a secret) to help Fred save Spike. The fact that the conduit agreed made me wonder about its motivation. It also makes me wonder about Gunn’s love for Fred. In an earlier episode it was revealed that Gunn had given his soul to Fred. This looks like it will be true. So far Gunn has killed a man for Fred and now he has undertaken another deal with the devil for Fred. I don’t think these sacrifices of the soul will satisfy Fred in the long-run and they seem relevant when the show is so much about the two ensouled vampires.
WESLEY Once again Wes had little to do in these two episodes. He still seems jealous of Fred. Once again he was compared with Gunn: they both knew that Spike was probably vanishing into hell and were to going to save him or worry about him, but revised their decisions out of love of Fred. Wes’s help seemed less damaging to his soul than Gunn’s but that remains to be seen.
LORNE It is easy to overlook Lorne’s contribution to the FG, but his readings would be tying up a lot of his time. It is disturbing that they can be misleading. I wonder how many people have mislead him so far.
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Post by Kerrie on Nov 19, 2003 6:45:11 GMT -5
I am not sure about this post. I don't wish to offend anyone so I will say at the outset, this purely speculative. I am not trying to be blasphomous. Moreover I haven't caught up with all the relevant posts so others may have addressed this issue more sensibly.
Lee said in her review of ep 4 that people have the power to choose their own destinies. I sort of agree. There was a couple of things that interested me. First Reaper said that he and Spike could shape their own realities. I understood this to mean that Spike's descension into hell was partly created by his own fears. This is like the ultimate self-fulfilling prophesy - you fear that you deserve hell so that is where you end up. I have read in Intro Psych books that "near Death" expereinces are often descibed the same way and that is because most people expect to see the same thing (i.e. the bright light, the welcome). Only occassionally do people seriously expect to go to hell, but some do and they experience that. I wonder if JW is saying that your ultimate destiny is within your control because you control your own perceptions and judgements of yourself and therefore determine your after-life. At this stage Spike feels guilty and beleives that he deserves to go to hell. So does Angel. However, whether the differences in their perceptions and reactions will change their destinies so that although both deserve the same fate, they will not meet it. Spike's more optimistic nature will change his fate, whilst Angel broods his way through hell.
Please help, I think my theology needs some work.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 19, 2003 6:55:29 GMT -5
Had a thought last night regarding the potential slayers of past ages. What happens to the potentials who get passed over? Okay, it's one thing when we're talking about potentials like Buffy, Faith or Kennedy, who never really seemed to take it all that seriously until called (or didn't even know they were part of the slayer lineage until they were slayers).
But imagine Kendra having put in all that time and energy -- her whole life -- into training to be a slayer, but then Buffy goes and decides not to die at the hands of the Master, so by the time Buffy does pass the torch, Kendra is too old to be a slayer and it gets handed down to Kennedy instead. Then what does Kendra do? Does the Council somehow otherwise employ the potentials who have trained extensively, or do they simply get a pat on the back and "Thank you for playing" from Quentin Travers? Ever wonder if maybe Gwendolyn Post became a watcher because she was once a passed-over potential slayer?
Fodder for discussion.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 19, 2003 7:04:50 GMT -5
Overall I was not impressed with these two episodes. Spike’s behaviour – his single-minded pursuit of finding an escape seemed disappointingly selfish even if very human under the circumstances. It did not help that the gruesome twosome would not settle – in fact they howled (and he kicked his door) through it. SPIKE In episodes 3 and 4 we see Spike at his most manipulative. He tries to give Fred some story about why he can’t ask Wes for help. He flirts with Fred hoping that she will help him. However, the flirtation is purely manipulative because (a) he loves Buffy and (b) when given the opportunity to see (or rather chivalrously not see) Fred whilst she takes a shower he paces around trying to find ways of communicating who is opponent is. In short I believe that Spike s largely asexual at this point in time and even his apparent flirting does not dissuade me from this viewpoint. He also begins to learn the lesson of controlling his impulses – to concentrate – if he is to communicate, to become corporeal and to stay out of hell. In the episode, Spike also learns about the shanshu prophesy and the possible reward for doing right and not just the “feel good” element. I thought that Spike’s vanishing into hell was the result of his guilty conscience and fears which would become activated when he was able to reflect on his past (eg when the FG ignored him). FRED Fred knows that Spike is using her, but wants to help him anyway. She does not like him sneaking up on her, but does not seem disturbed by the thought that he is in the bathroom with her whilst she takes a shower. The fact that Spike is partially using her is apparent by the fact that he is not interested by her overworked state. He rates his vanishing as higher on her priority list than he getting enough to eat or sleep time. Fred’s true friends/lovers, Wes and Gunn, were duly concerned about her. Fred expects this level of concern from Angel, but she is mistaken. Angel is more concerned about the bottom-line and so doesn’t notice her obvious fatigue. I was concerned to notice how quick Fred was to break Spike’s confidence in her. I am not sure what this signifies. ANGEL I was interested to see that Angel was interested in the Buffy-look alike, but this was not explored and may have simply been Angel and the writers trying to take some of the heat off Spike. After all Angel is also an attractive champion, if you like brunettes (and I don’t). GUNN The explicit pressure on Gunn about his deal with W&H has started. I suppose we should be grateful that it is actually being expressed and not just left simmering. I liked the fact that Gunn stood up for himself and said that he was just using his cognitive potential (I can’t remember his phrasing). It was interesting that Gunn has made another secret deal with the conduit (even if he did not know it was a secret) to help Fred save Spike. The fact that the conduit agreed made me wonder about its motivation. It also makes me wonder about Gunn’s love for Fred. In an earlier episode it was revealed that Gunn had given his soul to Fred. This looks like it will be true. So far Gunn has killed a man for Fred and now he has undertaken another deal with the devil for Fred. I don’t think these sacrifices of the soul will satisfy Fred in the long-run and they seem relevant when the show is so much about the two ensouled vampires. WESLEY Once again Wes had little to do in these two episodes. He still seems jealous of Fred. Once again he was compared with Gunn: they both knew that Spike was probably vanishing into hell and were to going to save him or worry about him, but revised their decisions out of love of Fred. Wes’s help seemed less damaging to his soul than Gunn’s but that remains to be seen. LORNE It is easy to overlook Lorne’s contribution to the FG, but his readings would be tying up a lot of his time. It is disturbing that they can be misleading. I wonder how many people have mislead him so far. I don't think Spike flirted with Fred JUST to persuade her to work harder to re-corporealize him. Certainly he consciously employed his considerable charms to that end; but I also believe that Spike likes Fred and flirts because it's second nature to him.
Spike did behave unselfishly and nobly towards Fred twice during HELLBOUND - he thanks her for her hard work on his behalf, even though she can't her him and he believes he might not survive; and saves Fred's life at the cost of what could be his only chance to regain his body.
Good points about Gunn, though I don't remember him giving up his soul for Fred. I think he might have compromised his soul for fast-tracked lawyering knowledge, though....[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Nov 19, 2003 7:10:17 GMT -5
Your haiku was great, as was your original hot little poem. Don't pay any attention to Diane, I never do. No, she never does.
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Nov 19, 2003 7:13:59 GMT -5
Yeah, I loved that "We're going to open up the books" line. He must've meant the secret books. Do you think he'll ever find the secret secret books? Why do Republicans always think they can solve monitary problems by going deeper into debt?
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 19, 2003 7:14:06 GMT -5
Had a thought last night regarding the potential slayers of past ages. What happens to the potentials who get passed over? Okay, it's one thing when we're talking about potentials like Buffy, Faith or Kennedy, who never really seemed to take it all that seriously until called (or didn't even know they were part of the slayer lineage until they were slayers). But imagine Kendra having put in all that time and energy -- her whole life -- into training to be a slayer, but then Buffy goes and decides not to die at the hands of the Master, so by the time Buffy does pass the torch, Kendra is too old to be a slayer and it gets handed down to Kennedy instead. Then what does Kendra do? Does the Council somehow otherwise employ the potentials who have trained extensively, or do they simply get a pat on the back and "Thank you for playing" from Quentin Travers? Ever wonder if maybe Gwendolyn Post became a watcher because she was once a passed-over potential slayer? Fodder for discussion. I would imagine that passed-over Potentials might get job offers as Watchers, or CoW operatives. Some passed-over Potentials might be delighted not to be sentanced to an extremely short life spent battling monsters, and go happily off to college or whatever.
Not all Potentials were taken from their parents as young children and given to Watchers to raise. Kennedy and Rona weren't; and none of the other Potentials seemed as duty-bound and socially backward as poor Kendra. Kendra had mentioned that it was the custom of her country for future Slayers to be raised by their Watchers; I infer that to mean that Slayers had been chosen from her homeland before.
GAIL
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Nov 19, 2003 7:20:03 GMT -5
Thanks for liking the haiku. As for the poem; that was really a joke poem more than anything. I had to stop because it was just getting more and more sexually graphic, and that's just not poetry! Well, it's dirty poetry. Believe me, it wouldn't have gotten better. I wasn't really insulted; I was just yanking your chain a little. I will admit I can be a little sensitive when it comes to my writing. I definitely can't compete with any of you guys! So don't worry, you didn't hurt my feelings. I think everyone who posts here is wonderfully witty and talented. I'm privileged to know you all. And I'm only marginally intimidated by most of you. I didn't know we were competing. If I thought that was the case I'd never write again 'cuz I couldn't compete with either Rob or Nan. Writing isn't something you do 'cause you have to (at least not after school's finished) it's something you do 'cause you love it so much. And anyway the only way to improve your writing is to WRITE! As for sexually graphic poetry...well, why not? Have you read Mary's Journeys? Don't. I mean, don't read it without oven mitts because it's that hot! It's also brilliantly plotted, engrossing, thought-provoking and a marvelous rethinking of Season Six. No reason your poetry can't do the same. As for yanking my chain. Go ahead. Patti does all the time and I never pay any attention to her.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 19, 2003 7:20:13 GMT -5
I would imagine that passed-over Potentials might get job offers as Watchers, or CoW operatives. Some passed-over Potentials might be delighted not to be sentanced to an extremely short life spent battling monsters, and go happily off to college or whatever.
Not all Potentials were taken from their parents as young children and given to Watchers to raise. Kennedy and Rona weren't; and none of the other Potentials seemed as duty-bound and socially backward as poor Kendra. Kendra had mentioned that it was the custom of her country for future Slayers to be raised by their Watchers; I infer that to mean that Slayers had been chosen from her homeland before.
GAIL Absolutely, I never suspected that Kennedy or Rona were all that duty bound. They'd probably have no problem at all living normal lives. I specifically brought up Kendra for a reason. She devoted her life to being a slayer and nothing else, but the potential existed that she might never be called. For someone like her, I would think never being a slayer would be more devastating than being called and living the short life. And as you noted, her people obviously take potential slayers quite seriously (and have apparently had several, although it's fuzzy on if Kendra was or was not the only one to elevate to slayerdom in their history). I'm sure her people aren't the only ones, and I'm also sure there was a time when the Kendras of the world were more prevelant than the Buffys and Faiths. Hence raising the query about what happens to someone like Kendra who gives their whole life to training for a cause they're never called to, at least not in the same light as they are called.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 19, 2003 7:22:39 GMT -5
Do you think he'll ever find the secret secret books? Why do Republicans always think they can solve monitary problems by going deeper into debt? Probably for the same reasons that Democrats think it's the Government's job to solve the world's social problems, even though they're so bloody bad at it. Political stupidity.
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