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Post by betsyAB on Nov 19, 2003 23:21:55 GMT -5
betsyAB- - I had just about given up on Smallville and tonight I decided to give it another try and was totally hooked! I thouhgt the actor playing Lex nailed the crazy scenes and it felt like the characters were finally deepening past their stereoptypical tv teens. It felt like lterhe was some context to all the angsty Lana/clark stuff and some background to why Lex will end up hating Supeman for the rest of his life. ( My husband tokd me the comic book made it all about him blaming Superman for his baldness- how lame is that?) probably by next week I will be back to thinking Smallville is irredemiably lame - It's nothing I can put my finger on, but when a show starts to bore me, I know it's time to move on. It took ER nine years, but this year it's yawn city. Friends has been usurped completely by Survivor now. The exception is Fraiser! I stopped watching a few years ago, but this year has me excited all over again. The episode where Frasier forgot to get his co-worker the signed picture of Captain Archer at the Star Trek Convention..so in retaliation he consents to teach Frasier how to speak Hebrew at his son's Bar Mitzvah, except that he really teaches him the blessing in KLINGON. So here's Frasier speaking Klingon at the Bar Mitzvah!! I was totally busting a gut over that! I guess it's that eventually the love story overshadows the characters and their individual growth in most shows. Buffy and Angel are the only shows I've watched that never bore me and always surprise me.
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Post by Karen on Nov 19, 2003 23:22:54 GMT -5
People..people! Aren't we forgetting something here..the ramifications are jsut overwhelming. Spike is corporeal ! ! ! When he ran into the door, I just about died. Thunk!
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Post by Vlad on Nov 19, 2003 23:24:58 GMT -5
and all the way to the end I kept waiting for hte other shoe to drop... i figured when he stood up to go get htat drink at hte end he would stumble against the desk and find out he was "ghosty" again.
Damn that ME... even when they give you what you want, you can never be easy about it.
Vlad
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 19, 2003 23:25:30 GMT -5
Sorry to tell ya, Patti...what is the significance of two individuals catching their hands supernaturally on fire? Together? What precisely does that signify? True, the hands aren't clasped, but.... And I'm dead serious about this. There was subtext galore between Liam and William, and not buried very deeply, either. I know you're dead serious. I think you're dead wrong, too. ;D
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Post by karalee on Nov 19, 2003 23:28:54 GMT -5
Rob,
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you for your point #10. I am almost sick over this. You said EXACTLY what I thought when it was happening. I am very disappointed with the way Spike was written tonight.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 19, 2003 23:31:22 GMT -5
I know you're dead serious. I think you're dead wrong, too. ;D I won't pursue it beyond this. I've said my say. The facts will continue to speak for themselves.
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Post by Rob on Nov 19, 2003 23:31:29 GMT -5
evening makd- I too thought that the evening was rife with suggestive homoeroticism- the buddy buddy vibes remind me of the best of the Robert Redford/Paul Newman heyday. Hi Ellie. It's great to see you again. I didn't comment on this before, but...though I don't consider it to be literally the case between Spike and Angel, the homoerotic elements are certainly available for those who wish to interpret them that way. Tonight's episode clearly intends to give off that kind of vibe at certain times, whether they're being serious or not. Patti could well be correct; ME could just be having a little fun with the speculation. Either way, the subtext was provided for discussion. There is no question about it.
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Dori
S'cubie
Jumping 'Ship...
Posts: 33
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Post by Dori on Nov 19, 2003 23:32:15 GMT -5
Lindsay's back and they're gonna be in trouble Hey Na Hey Na Lindsay's back BWAH! Nan, are you thinking what I'm thinking...? <G> (Old BatB joke...)
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Post by ellie on Nov 19, 2003 23:32:18 GMT -5
Far and away the best episode of the year. In fact, before I forget the way it made me feel and react...this is one of the best episodes of Angel. Ever. EVENING Rob- THANK YOU- IT IS GOOD TO BE BACK just a few responses inserted- my comments are in caps- yours are regular ( but you knew that 2. "Lindsey!! You're covered in sexy runes!!" ROB_ THAT IS BRILLIANT 5. Wait a minute. If Angel made Spike into a monster, what sort of vampire WAS Spike right after he was turned? He still killed people. What, he was a kinder, gentler murderer who wanted to save his Mum by killing her? One who feel foolishly in love with Dru because he believed she loved him? YEAH >>>AND? As Angel said, Spike wanted it more...but perhaps not in the way Angel believed. Spike was fueled by jealousy and revenge. That ain't gonna get you Shanshued if you ask me. Seems like both of them still have a ways to go. AGREED_KIND OF BUT I THINK IT WAS MORE ABOUT OWNING WHAT YOUR PAST HAS MADE OF YOU 10. In the midst of all the great stuff, there were some moments that didn't ring true for either Angel or Spike as far as I'm concerned. I had enough of a problem with Spike telling Wesley about something as private and painful as the story of he and his mother. There is no way I could ever believe he would shout it to the rafters in front of an entire office. That was ridiculous. I WONDERED ABOUT THAT- TWICE DID SEEM EXCESSIVE Also, how exactly would Buffy feel if she knew Spike wanted a quick roll in the office with Harm before heading to Europe? I mean, it was cute and all...but when you really look at that for what it was, Spike doesn't look too good there. AH COME ON- HE JUST GOT THE ABILITY TO FEEL THE SENSATIONS BACK!! The biggest problem for me may well be colored by the fact that I'm a guy, so most of you will have to bear with me. I fully believe that both of these men are mature individuals who truly love and respect Buffy. Let me reemphasize the word RESPECT. I cannot imagine either Angel or Spike referring to Buffy - even to one another - the way they did. "Getting into her pants." "Puttin' it to her." I WAS PUT OFF BY THAT ONE TOO BUB- IT RANG FALSE . .11. I've criticized Boreanaz's acting before, though he is vastly improved over his early days on BTVS. This is his strongest performance of the season so far, so I hate to nitpick, but...God, I wish he would get himself a dialogue coach for the flashback sequences. It's a little distracting, and that is a shame. He does such an amazing job as Angelus otherwise. HE HAS DEVELOPED INTO A FINE COMEDIAN AND I WAS A TRIFLE DISAPPOINTED THAT HE WAS SO SLOPPY WITH THE ACCENT. P.S. You know, after all the ranting about disrespect I reviewed this post and saw myself making comments about Eve's underwear. I am such a hypocrite. On the other hand, I would never say something like that if I saw Buffy's underwear. Interesting... MEN
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Post by Karen on Nov 19, 2003 23:32:26 GMT -5
Sorry to tell ya, Patti...what is the significance of two individuals catching their hands supernaturally on fire? Together? What precisely does that signify? True, the hands aren't clasped, but.... And I'm dead serious about this. There was subtext galore between Liam and William, and not buried very deeply, either. Ah, the hands. Good catch, Nan. Loving that visual now. When I saw it all I was thinking was how Spike had to mimic Angel with the hand burning - to maybe prove himself somehow. The play of emotions on Spike's face was awesome, as was the look of triumph on Angelus's face.
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Post by betsyAB on Nov 19, 2003 23:34:00 GMT -5
"One fights for the greater good." That might be Angel - except, we know he's been killing humans; we know he's lost some of his conviction; we know he's already starting to make decisions that leave us wondering (eg, when Fred comes to him in Hellbound, and she thinks he's worried about her, but he's really worried about the bottom line.) "The other wants to know what's in it for him." I don't know if that's Spike. He's told Angel - He works for the other side, now. He's told Angel several times that he (Spike) considers that Angel has sold out. Does Spike want only what's in it for him? He saved Fred when he could have saved himself. I think Spike is a free agent; he will do what is "right" , as HE sees it's right. His morality is very relative...Angel's is more absolute, I think. IMHO, the differences between the two are huge, and the whole soul-having (choice/curse) is just the start. I only said that about Spike because he out and out said it in the office when they were discussing the shansu. "What's in it for me." Spike said it. Maybe he said it as a smokescreen to cover up how important the outcome is to him...I don't know. But you're right, Angel seems to be faltering. Perhaps with Spike around he'll become more focused. You're also right that Angel is more rigid about what's right and wrong and that Spike is more flexible--especially if someone he cares about is involved. I only meant that the writers are playing up the differences between the two characters very well and are mining lots of rich history between the two. And I totally agree with Rob that Spike shouting that out about his mother to everyone was completely out of character. That was jarring to me.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 19, 2003 23:36:50 GMT -5
BWAH! Nan, are you thinking what I'm thinking...? <G> (Old BatB joke...) Yeah--the Florida con, with the video to "My Boyfriend's Back" and the blood/violence abhorring fans stamping and hollering for Vincent to slash up the baddies, so long as it was FOR CATHERINE. Uber creepy! I'll never forget it. I've told that story here, BTW.... So good to have old pals around! Right? Wanna arm wrestle? Wanna stick our hands in the light and watch them smoke? Wanna grab a honkin' big cross and see what happens?
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Post by ellie on Nov 19, 2003 23:41:33 GMT -5
"One fights for the greater good." That might be Angel - except, we know he's been killing humans; we know he's lost some of his conviction; we know he's already starting to make decisions that leave us wondering (eg, when Fred comes to him in Hellbound, and she thinks he's worried about her, but he's really worried about the bottom line.) "The other wants to know what's in it for him." I don't know if that's Spike. He's told Angel - He works for the other side, now. He's told Angel several times that he (Spike) considers that Angel has sold out. Does Spike want only what's in it for him? He saved Fred when he could have saved himself. I think Spike is a free agent; he will do what is "right" , as HE sees it's right. His morality is very relative...Angel's is more absolute, I think. IMHO, the differences between the two are huge, and the whole soul-having (choice/curse) is just the start. Hi makd- You know it occurs to me that the distinctions described fit both souled vampires in different circumstances and varying interpretations of their motives. Maybe the way in which the Senior Partners are planning to right the imbalance IS to have Angel and Spike eachfighting to prove his worth for selfish reasons and therby missing the greater implications and purpsoe. They may have both" lost the mission."
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 19, 2003 23:41:50 GMT -5
New topic:
It occurs to me that in this episode, we have one of the few known cases of Spikus interruptus.
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Post by Karen on Nov 19, 2003 23:43:16 GMT -5
and all the way to the end I kept waiting for hte other shoe to drop... i figured when he stood up to go get htat drink at hte end he would stumble against the desk and find out he was "ghosty" again. Damn that ME... even when they give you what you want, you can never be easy about it. Vlad Everything has changed. Spike is solid. Angel has been defeated by Spike. They said the B-word. The gloves are off. But they are still stuck with each other - until one is dust? Or one is human? Or they defeat the EveL. I loved when Angel asked Spike to stay - 'please'? 'Europe will always be there.' It's in the back of his mind, always, what Spike and Buffy shared. But he did ask, he didn't order. Didn't like the off-hand references to Buffy either. Didn't ring true so far's I can see anyway.
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