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Post by raenstorm on Jun 25, 2003 14:06:57 GMT -5
The Fanwriters' Roundtable is now open for your enjoyment.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jun 25, 2003 14:42:43 GMT -5
The idea here, as I understand it, is for those S'cubies writing fanfiction that's BtVS or AtS oriented, to toss around ideas either on writing in general, or specific issues like slash or het, sex or none, or interesting or difficult or really lousy (NOT OURS!) technique/craft noticed in other stories or to voice questions or problems encountered with our own current fictions with the opportunity to post short excerpts for discussion and feedback (not just to get them posted and read)--just trouble-shooting and problem solving in this latter regard.
In other words, to talk writing shop in whatever way we, and any other S'cubies that may join us, may find useful, pleasant, and enjoyable.
It's by and for writers, but others are welcome to lurk or comment or join in if they wish.
Let the BS begin.
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kimi
S'cubie
"Gabriel=Mini-Spike"
Posts: 102
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Post by kimi on Jun 25, 2003 16:16:59 GMT -5
Okay, first...
Grabbed your email and got that puppy up over at the Sandlot. Great patience was endured so that others could benefit.
(It took about three minutes)]
Then, I read it. And your earlier question. I'm answering it here.
As to grim? Yeah. Damn right it's grim. What you've managed to do is strip Spike down to the elementals, and you're stripping him down further with every nail that goes in the coffin.
He's no longer trying to fit in. He's taken responsibility and therefore is having to find his own way on it.
Scarier is the idea that Sunnydale is becoming more and more of a war zone... and was even before the nightmarish hospital sequence.
This is so interesting, because you and I are going at the same thing. I'm beginning to worry, because I write on the fly as ideas hit. I can only thank God the Dawn conversation in "Wolf" was written in February, because otherwise I'd be damned afraid that your work was influencing mine.
Loving the broader definition of Spike-speak here, and your Buffy is dead on. Still reacting to the surface of things here, not digging too deeply or analysing too much. Very Buffy. Whereas Dawn is, as always, looking below the surface.
I've often thought that Buffy's reactions to things are almost at the level of the male gender role thingy. You need to spell everything out for her. If it's not said, or seen, it's not real. Not until it's there in front of her, much like her reaction to Spike's revelation in "Beneath You."
So if you're trying to get to the utter hopelessness of the situation, you're doing a damn fine job. Both from the pov of the impact of the roving bands of Ubervamps, and the difference in Spike's patterns of reacting to things as a vampire, not a human.
It's almost like watching the advent of a train wreck. Powerless to stop it, but still wanting to give it the old college try anyway. I feel like a voyeur into something personal and painful. Which is what I love. Life and love aren't all hearts and flowers. They're both complicated and messy.
Okay. So first real roundtable response. Hah and yay for me!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jun 25, 2003 17:02:45 GMT -5
Thanks, Kimi. That kind of detailed reaction was what I was looking for, and certainly this whole thread shouldn't be a discussion of my stuff. But it helps clarify for me what I'm trying to do here.
This fiction is vampire-centric--Spike himself, as a vampire, and only secondarily focusing on his relationship with ANY other character. In other words, it's a love story only secondarily. And in this story he's been as brutally honest and insightful about himself as he has in the past about others: he WOULD make a lousy general. He DOES get caught up in things and fail to see the larger implications, if at all, until it's too late. He can't head up the opposition to the First from the vampire side. So this is the chapter when he hits dead bottom (to date) and the whole vampire SITs thing has blown up in his face irretrievably. Now, soon, Angel shows up and it begins to get interesting.... I hope.
Incidentally, I exactly agree with you about Buffy. She's not at all unintelligent, but she thinks best with her hands, and I don't think a Slayer could be overgifted with imagination or empathy and still function. She's in danger of losing her ability to see vamps as utterly Other, just monsters to slay, and that will have its ramifications later on. She's a killer and cannot afford to have empathy with her natural prey--any more than vampires can.
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kimi
S'cubie
"Gabriel=Mini-Spike"
Posts: 102
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Post by kimi on Jun 25, 2003 18:11:42 GMT -5
And in this story he's been as brutally honest and insightful about himself as he has in the past about others: he WOULD make a lousy general. He DOES get caught up in things and fail to see the larger implications, if at all, until it's too late. He can't head up the opposition to the First from the vampire side. So this is the chapter when he hits dead bottom (to date) and the whole vampire SITs thing has blown up in his face irretrievably. Now, soon, Angel shows up and it begins to get interesting.... I hope. Incidentally, I exactly agree with you about Buffy. She's not at all unintelligent, but she thinks best with her hands, and I don't think a Slayer could be overgifted with imagination or empathy and still function. She's in danger of losing her ability to see vamps as utterly Other, just monsters to slay, and that will have its ramifications later on. She's a killer and cannot afford to have empathy with her natural prey--any more than vampires can. Well, this is frightening. We are doing *exactly* the same thing. Both with Spike and with Buffy. Should be interesting to see how our ways of handling it differ. Because your piece is so incredibly compelling that I'm shaking my head in wonder. And I'm not blowin' smoke up your ass. I just can't believe we're writing the same story... Huh. Kinda neat.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jun 25, 2003 18:29:52 GMT -5
Kimi, I could pass it off with a grin and "great minds think alike."
But I think there's more to it. I think we're independently seeing something true, something that the series implied but never dealt directly with, operating strictly from the human norm and showing the vamp point of view very clearly but not justifying it in any way until the end.
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Post by Rob on Jun 25, 2003 19:50:47 GMT -5
I just wanted to throw a ton of admiration your way (here it comes...Duck!!) regarding both your stories. This is the kind of material that makes fanfic worthy of my time.
I hesitate to delve into this because I may not express it well, but the deconstruction of Buffy and Spike is well thought out and immaculately presented.
I thought it best to post this before I try to analyze my own material, because it differs so much in tone and skill (the latter most of all of course). It scares me at times to share webspace with a presence as formidable as Nan's. I realize that on some level that's a bit silly, since we clearly both fill a need in a different way...we both have an appreciative readership.
It's undeniable, however, that both BB and EME have an intellectual depth that the Chronicles can and will not reach. I feel the same way about "Wolf" and "Journeys."
More importantly, I didn't want any confusion when I post my feelings about fanfic in general. I'm not lumping your work in with mine...or anyone elses, for that matter. Just a disclaimer to avoid any misconceptions that I was slamming anyone present.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jun 25, 2003 19:50:58 GMT -5
Kimi said that she's opted for notification on the Fanwriters' Roundtable thread. And now, so have I. I suggest that anybody who wants to come and play here do the same, so we can know when a new comment/post has been added and therefore know to come and look here, to keep the conversation going. Otherwise it will die out for lack of tending.
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Post by Kimi on Jun 25, 2003 20:34:13 GMT -5
I just wanted to throw a ton of admiration your way (here it comes...Duck!!) regarding both your stories. This is the kind of material that makes fanfic worthy of my time. I hesitate to delve into this because I may not express it well, but the deconstruction of Buffy and Spike is well thought out and immaculately presented. I thought it best to post this before I try to analyze my own material, because it differs so much in tone and skill (the latter most of all of course). It scares me at times to share webspace with a presence as formidable as Nan's. I realize that on some level that's a bit silly, since we clearly both fill a need in a different way...we both have an appreciative readership. It's undeniable, however, that both BB and EME have an intellectual depth that the Chronicles can and will not reach. I feel the same way about "Wolf" and "Journeys." More importantly, I didn't want any confusion when I post my feelings about fanfic in general. I'm not lumping your work in with mine...or anyone elses, for that matter. Just a disclaimer to avoid any misconceptions that I was slamming anyone present. Rob, just how long have you been writing? Is Chronicles your first? Because, case in point, we're not all Nan. My first fic was a fluffy little piece called Bachelor Party. It's not deep into any deconstruction, although the seeds are there. When I compare what I wrote then, eighteen months ago, with where I am now, I want to send a virus out over the Internet and sear every archived copy out of existence. That said, the beauty of the first work is that the bloom is on the rose. You haven't begun to write yourself into those corners that come from fanfic characterizations. Only later as you delve deeper into the open threads that you yourself have discovered do you begin the deconstruction process. At least, in my experience. I fuss about Bachelor Party constantly. Bitch and moan because it feels like my best known piece. It's not deep. It's just kinda fun. But I recently reread it at a friend's request during one of my rants about the superficiality of it. Cherish your first work, when you are young and green and there's a freshness about it. I have begun reading the Chronicles and I'm enjoying it very much. The 'what if' that got it going, and the full bore fun of creating on the fly.
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kimi
S'cubie
"Gabriel=Mini-Spike"
Posts: 102
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Post by kimi on Jun 25, 2003 20:36:13 GMT -5
And I fell out of Log In. Duh.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jun 25, 2003 20:49:59 GMT -5
Rob, I've been writing fiction almost as long as I could write, and I'm 60 1/2. I don't want to throw my weight around as a published writer. Rather, I hope to enjoy the process of fiction writing, that you never finish learning, with others with like interests, sharing whatever each of us can bring to it.
We are, and I mean this most sincerely, only searching for ways we can tell the truth we are able to see, in the ways we're capable of imagining and expressing it. Me as much as anybody.
So I would hope no one would find me in the least intimidating--or Kimi either, lest she develop a swelled head: not until you start focusing on communicating, Kimi!--or give my views any undue weight beyond what usefulness they seemed to have in providing insight on the writing process for whoever may read them.
I am trying hard to unlearn arrogance, learn humility, shed the things that aren't real. I hope I may have everyone's help and patience with this.
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kimi
S'cubie
"Gabriel=Mini-Spike"
Posts: 102
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Post by kimi on Jun 25, 2003 20:59:49 GMT -5
--or Kimi either, lest she develop a swelled head: not until you start focusing on communicating, Kimi!--or give my views any undue weight beyond what usefulness they seemed to have in providing insight on the writing process for whoever may read them. Oh, God forbid. I was born with a big head... like JM. It doesn't need any help. You would think I'd have the brain to go with the skeletal structure. But nooooo.... And yes, Nan, I hear you. One day I'll start focusing on communicating... Just not today. *g*
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Post by Rob on Jun 25, 2003 21:09:02 GMT -5
Rule Number 1: Indulge Yourself. Here endeth the list of rules. If I knew how to post in the big fancy letters, the above would look that way. At it's heart, all fanfic is self indulgent. You are exploring things that you--and you alone, at the beginning--find interesting and worthy. When others respond to what you've written, there is a communal feeling that results. You weren't so alone in your opinions after all, and God bless everyone who takes time out of their day to say you did something they liked. What else could it be other than self indulgence? How much do we get paid for it? What is the reward other than reading reviews which enthusiastically declare that you are King Shit of Turd Mountain because you write good Giles dialogue? The only other possible reward is the opportunity to get a few things off your chest. In that way, fanfic is immeasurably rewarding on a personal level. Now...what is my own stuff about? Well, first of all, they're supposed to be about cool stories to read that are fun and well paced. That, to me, is the first priority. I'm a suspense novel addict from the age of ten, and I love it when I hear people tell me they had no idea something was coming. That is just.....neat. More often than not, any DEEP THEMES...or even the even more daunting MESSAGES...appear by accident in my work. I was writing things that mattered to me, and analysis came later.....especially in the first entry of the Chronicles trilogy, known as "Truth." An arrogant title if there ever was one, by the way. Now, however, I'll give it a glance in hindsight and see what shakes out. Why would I do this? Please refer to Rule Number One. I personally had received more than my fill of angst between the characters I loved at the halfway point of Season Seven. That didn't mean there wouldn't be any at all in my world....but things would be resolved and people would come away even closer once they'd weathered the storm. BTVS went a long way to diametrically oppose that feeling, and that, combined with the disappearance of the Scooby Gang in any meaningful way, caused anger and frustration on my part. I considered the whole "but she's a Slayer, it's different for her than normal people" rationalization to be a copout. If she had chosen to unburden herself, her friends would have been there. Buffy chose to feel alone, and there is an arrogance to that that hurt me terribly because I loved her so much. I can just imagine people wanting to argue that point with me, so let me say that the show fixed things a bit when they allowed Buffy to discover a balance between her worlds in Episode 7-21. This is merely a recap of my feelings when "Truth" was written. In Joss's version of Scooby life, the more pain they shared, the more disconnected they became. Most human beings, in my experience, grow closer with time. Those closest to us know where the emotional bodies are buried, so to speak. You can't hide from them, which is potentially irritating...but positively vital when things come apart, as they inevitably do if you're a human being on this planet. One can only be emotionally naked with those they trust, and a little emotional nudity can be as liberating as the physical experience of skinny dipping all by yourself. For those who haven't done that, try it someday. You'll be surprised how free it feels, and I'm speaking in far deeper terms than simply physical. It's about freedom. Hence that momentary feeling of relief that occurs after one cries due to sadness. For the moment, at least, you purged yourself of a burden. I doubt it comes across, but the first story (which in the final analysis isn't very good to my mind, but hey...it was my first try) was all about taking out the emotional trash, and finding out that things were actually pretty clean under there once you get it out of the way. I'm sorry if that rather lengthy diatribe makes no sense...but if there is a definitive reason for me deciding to type fiction for the first time ever at 33 years old, that would be it. At least it surely was for the first installment. The next two are delving into different territory altogether...but the basic intent of letting thse characters I love openly LOVE one another--without shame or regret--hasn't really changed. I freely admit that there's great transference in these stories...some of which is deeply personal. So be it. The greatest of all real demons are the ones who cripple us emotionally. My more recent work certainly reads better, and possesses more polished dialogue. Still, I reserve the right to go completely over the top with these characters whenever I see fit, and Triangles indeed does that, and often. If it doesn't read like real life or the series itself......well Hell, that's probably a good thing. It's bloody boring otherwise, init? If people don't like mine, that is perfectly ok. I love hearing from people who don't like the directions I choose to take the characters, or the things they say. I'm grateful they took the time to review it at all. Clearly it affected them in some way..... Which satisfies Rule Number One. The only rule I will ever go by.
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Post by RustyGoode on Jun 25, 2003 21:14:24 GMT -5
I just wanted to throw a ton of admiration your way (here it comes...Duck!!) regarding both your stories. This is the kind of material that makes fanfic worthy of my time. I hesitate to delve into this because I may not express it well, but the deconstruction of Buffy and Spike is well thought out and immaculately presented. I thought it best to post this before I try to analyze my own material, because it differs so much in tone and skill (the latter most of all of course). It scares me at times to share webspace with a presence as formidable as Nan's. I realize that on some level that's a bit silly, since we clearly both fill a need in a different way...we both have an appreciative readership. It's undeniable, however, that both BB and EME have an intellectual depth that the Chronicles can and will not reach. I feel the same way about "Wolf" and "Journeys." More importantly, I didn't want any confusion when I post my feelings about fanfic in general. I'm not lumping your work in with mine...or anyone elses, for that matter. Just a disclaimer to avoid any misconceptions that I was slamming anyone present. Plus: "And in this story he's been as brutally honest and insightful about himself as he has in the past about others: he WOULD make a lousy general. He DOES get caught up in things and fail to see the larger implications, if at all, until it's too late. He can't head up the opposition to the First from the vampire side. So this is the chapter when he hits dead bottom (to date) and the whole vampire SITs thing has blown up in his face irretrievably. Now, soon, Angel shows up and it begins to get interesting.... I hope." What Rob said. Also.. The two of you agree that Spike would be a lousy general, but in my fic a general is exactly what I'm challenging him to be. In season two he had minions, he had an organization, he had menace and he had a plan. He was also easily bored, as evil often is, and that was his flaw. He could afford to be impetuous because nobody was relying on him for anything except Drucilla. He could go balls to the wall and lose nothing but himself. The trip to Sunnyhell ends up taking it all away from him, leadership, reputation, relationship, respect. Everything except the option to get blown to dust for taking some chance he couldn't fight himself out of. In the rest of the series Spike's sub plot is him trying to regain lost ground. But he ends up taking much more of a journey than he ever thought possible. This is my first fic, but I've had the bones of it in my head for two years. Some stuff I planned got done in the series plotlines, but I'm going with it anyway because it's not a steal, it just looks like it is. Where the writing takes both me and the characters is a constant surprise. Characters identify their purpose to me while I'm writing them, and mostly I agree with them. I realize that I'm writing this fic for myself, because honestly, I don't think channeling the imagination of a fifteen year old Sword and Sorcery geek-boy appeals to too many Buffy fic readers. But of all the things I have to do right now, I'd rather be writing than almost anything else.
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Post by Rob on Jun 25, 2003 21:33:07 GMT -5
Plus: "And in this story he's been as brutally honest and insightful about himself as he has in the past about others: he WOULD make a lousy general. He DOES get caught up in things and fail to see the larger implications, if at all, until it's too late. He can't head up the opposition to the First from the vampire side. So this is the chapter when he hits dead bottom (to date) and the whole vampire SITs thing has blown up in his face irretrievably. Now, soon, Angel shows up and it begins to get interesting.... I hope." What Rob said. Also.. The two of you agree that Spike would be a lousy general, but in my fic a general iss exactly what I'm challenging him to be. In season two he had minions, he had an organization, he had menace and he had a plan. He was also easily bored, as evil often is, and that was his flaw. He could afford to be impetuous because nobody was relying on him for anything except Drucilla. He could go balls to the wall and lose nothing but himself. The trip to Sunnyhell ends up taking it all away from him, leadership, reputation, relationship, respect. Everything except the option to get blown to dust for taking some chance he couldn't fight himself out of. The whole rest of the series Spike sub plot is him trying to regain lost ground. But he ends up taking much more of a journey than he ever thought possible. This is my first fic, but I've had the bones of it in my head for two years. Some stuff I planned on got done in the series plotlines, but I'm going with it anyway because it's not a steall. Where the writing takes both me and the characters is a constant surprise. Characters identify their purpose to me while I'm writing them and mostly I agree with them. I realize that I'm writing this fic for myself, because honestly I don't think channeling the imagination of a fifteen year old Sword and Sorcery geek-boy appeals to too many Buffy fic readers. But of all the things I have to do right now, I'd rather be writing than almost anything else. For what it's worth, I love your work Rusty...and I read little or no sword and sorcery fiction growing up. Of course, it could be why I'm enjoying it so much. It feels new to me. The imagery is so much fun to read, and Buffy is funny. I love Buffy most when she is humanized as much as possible...and those are generally the moments when she's acting foolish or silly, as long as it's balanced with serious and relfective moments. Keep up the great work. I can't wait for 14 to come out.
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