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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Nov 18, 2011 18:04:13 GMT -5
Just found out that tonight's LA Theater Works on kuow is the JM MacBeth; they stream it at the broadcast time, 10pm Pacific, which is too late for all y'all, even Anne. I think there's a link at the kuow.org site to LA theaterworks podcasts, though.
Julia, trying not to guilt myself into over-work: it's not raining! But I feel like sewage!
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Post by Michelle on Nov 18, 2011 18:37:23 GMT -5
Many thanks to TPTB that no major injuries or deaths. Terrifying. Here is a pic of some firefighters standing inside the crater, looking at the center of it: Did they discover a Hellmouth?? Glad you're OK.
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Post by Michelle on Nov 18, 2011 18:38:09 GMT -5
Remember yesterday's terrible, awful, no good, very bad day? The day when the traveling judge got me chewed out for not sending notices or reminders? Everybody remember? I just got the cases back via. FedEx. Guess what? Every single case has an exhbited notice AND a reminder. I sent the judge an email. He sent one back. Meeting with him on Tuesday He owes you a HUGE bouquet of flowers. And maybe a box of chocolates. And some wine. Not the cheap stuff.
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Post by Michelle on Nov 18, 2011 18:39:41 GMT -5
I heard of the term used on Farscape, but I had no idea it was based on a movie. Interesting; I'll have to check it out. I'm not so sure that this phenomenon is so clearly delineated across gender lines, though. This is exactly what my mom does to me all the time. And my brother. And my dad. And who knows who else. Also, I am actually *really* *really* sensitive to other people's emotional states AND I tend to remember minutia of detail from many years prior, much more than other people, male or female. So, I've gotten this *a lot* in my life, but more for my weird brain than for being a woman. For what it's worth. I know what you're talking about, Liz. Some people, regardless of gender, don't like others who act or think differently from them. But I was thinking about gaslighting when I met this guy for dinner whmo I had met via Match.com. We were talking about Steve Jobs, because he is reading his biography, and he said that one of the things he liked about Jobs was his ability to use both his left and right brain equally well. The guy said he didn't have a lot of opportunity to use his right brain at his job (database administrator) and so I asked him if he had any hobbies where he was able to use the right (creative) side of his brain, and he was stumped. So he asked me what I liked to do, and I mentioned crafts, and he responded, "Well you're a woman, that's why" or something like that. I kind of took offense to that, and said that he shouldn't be sexist, men do all kinds of crafts too -- pottery, photography, woodworking, model-making, and on and on. And his response was, "Can't you take a joke?" And that gave me pause. I'm wondering what you all think? I know you weren't there, but do you really think he was really joking and it just went over my head, or was telling me to "take a joke" a form of gaslighting? Opinions welcomed.
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Post by Queen E on Nov 18, 2011 18:54:59 GMT -5
I heard of the term used on Farscape, but I had no idea it was based on a movie. Interesting; I'll have to check it out. I'm not so sure that this phenomenon is so clearly delineated across gender lines, though. This is exactly what my mom does to me all the time. And my brother. And my dad. And who knows who else. Also, I am actually *really* *really* sensitive to other people's emotional states AND I tend to remember minutia of detail from many years prior, much more than other people, male or female. So, I've gotten this *a lot* in my life, but more for my weird brain than for being a woman. For what it's worth. I know what you're talking about, Liz. Some people, regardless of gender, don't like others who act or think differently from them. But I was thinking about gaslighting when I met this guy for dinner whmo I had met via Match.com. We were talking about Steve Jobs, because he is reading his biography, and he said that one of the things he liked about Jobs was his ability to use both his left and right brain equally well. The guy said he didn't have a lot of opportunity to use his right brain at his job (database administrator) and so I asked him if he had any hobbies where he was able to use the right (creative) side of his brain, and he was stumped. So he asked me what I liked to do, and I mentioned crafts, and he responded, "Well you're a woman, that's why" or something like that. I kind of took offense to that, and said that he shouldn't be sexist, men do all kinds of crafts too -- pottery, photography, woodworking, model-making, and on and on. And his response was, "Can't you take a joke?" And that gave me pause. I'm wondering what you all think? I know you weren't there, but do you really think he was really joking and it just went over my head, or was telling me to "take a joke" a form of gaslighting? Opinions welcomed. I think that is gas-lighting, absolutely. Because he expected that statement to go unchallenged, knew he had no basis in fact for such an opinion, and thus when you were affronted (rightly so), he retreated to "it's a joke!" I suppose there is the smallest, minute chance that he was kidding, but its a good rule of thumb not to employ subtle sarcasm with people until you get to know them. When you're dealing with people you don't know well, and you want to be sarcastic, you really need to signpost it. Either way, men need to spend a lot more time thinking about their own emotional motives and stop telling us what ours are. So says Queen "Trust Me, I'm a Doctor" E.
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Nov 18, 2011 20:46:30 GMT -5
I heard of the term used on Farscape, but I had no idea it was based on a movie. Interesting; I'll have to check it out. I'm not so sure that this phenomenon is so clearly delineated across gender lines, though. This is exactly what my mom does to me all the time. And my brother. And my dad. And who knows who else. Also, I am actually *really* *really* sensitive to other people's emotional states AND I tend to remember minutia of detail from many years prior, much more than other people, male or female. So, I've gotten this *a lot* in my life, but more for my weird brain than for being a woman. For what it's worth. I know what you're talking about, Liz. Some people, regardless of gender, don't like others who act or think differently from them. But I was thinking about gaslighting when I met this guy for dinner whmo I had met via Match.com. We were talking about Steve Jobs, because he is reading his biography, and he said that one of the things he liked about Jobs was his ability to use both his left and right brain equally well. The guy said he didn't have a lot of opportunity to use his right brain at his job (database administrator) and so I asked him if he had any hobbies where he was able to use the right (creative) side of his brain, and he was stumped. So he asked me what I liked to do, and I mentioned crafts, and he responded, "Well you're a woman, that's why" or something like that. I kind of took offense to that, and said that he shouldn't be sexist, men do all kinds of crafts too -- pottery, photography, woodworking, model-making, and on and on. And his response was, "Can't you take a joke?" And that gave me pause. I'm wondering what you all think? I know you weren't there, but do you really think he was really joking and it just went over my head, or was telling me to "take a joke" a form of gaslighting? Opinions welcomed. He was NOT joking. He was gaslighting. That bullshit "I was only joking" line is a classic dodge when a man realizes 1. He's put his foot in it. 2. She isn't buying it. 3. She is calling him on it instead of meekly accepting whatever he burbles as gospel. I hope you walked out on him.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Nov 18, 2011 20:53:06 GMT -5
Cardiology rotation is over. Driving to Cheyenne tomorrow, weather permitting. Starting surgery on Monday.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Nov 18, 2011 21:22:12 GMT -5
I heard of the term used on Farscape, but I had no idea it was based on a movie. Interesting; I'll have to check it out. I'm not so sure that this phenomenon is so clearly delineated across gender lines, though. This is exactly what my mom does to me all the time. And my brother. And my dad. And who knows who else. Also, I am actually *really* *really* sensitive to other people's emotional states AND I tend to remember minutia of detail from many years prior, much more than other people, male or female. So, I've gotten this *a lot* in my life, but more for my weird brain than for being a woman. For what it's worth. I know what you're talking about, Liz. Some people, regardless of gender, don't like others who act or think differently from them. But I was thinking about gaslighting when I met this guy for dinner whmo I had met via Match.com. We were talking about Steve Jobs, because he is reading his biography, and he said that one of the things he liked about Jobs was his ability to use both his left and right brain equally well. The guy said he didn't have a lot of opportunity to use his right brain at his job (database administrator) and so I asked him if he had any hobbies where he was able to use the right (creative) side of his brain, and he was stumped. So he asked me what I liked to do, and I mentioned crafts, and he responded, "Well you're a woman, that's why" or something like that. I kind of took offense to that, and said that he shouldn't be sexist, men do all kinds of crafts too -- pottery, photography, woodworking, model-making, and on and on. And his response was, "Can't you take a joke?" And that gave me pause. I'm wondering what you all think? I know you weren't there, but do you really think he was really joking and it just went over my head, or was telling me to "take a joke" a form of gaslighting? Opinions welcomed. Absolutely. So is "but I was just teasing you"and the not-unrelated "you need to smile more." Julia, should not get all riled up when I'm this sick.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Nov 18, 2011 21:44:24 GMT -5
I know what you're talking about, Liz. Some people, regardless of gender, don't like others who act or think differently from them. But I was thinking about gaslighting when I met this guy for dinner whmo I had met via Match.com. We were talking about Steve Jobs, because he is reading his biography, and he said that one of the things he liked about Jobs was his ability to use both his left and right brain equally well. The guy said he didn't have a lot of opportunity to use his right brain at his job (database administrator) and so I asked him if he had any hobbies where he was able to use the right (creative) side of his brain, and he was stumped. So he asked me what I liked to do, and I mentioned crafts, and he responded, "Well you're a woman, that's why" or something like that. I kind of took offense to that, and said that he shouldn't be sexist, men do all kinds of crafts too -- pottery, photography, woodworking, model-making, and on and on. And his response was, "Can't you take a joke?" And that gave me pause. I'm wondering what you all think? I know you weren't there, but do you really think he was really joking and it just went over my head, or was telling me to "take a joke" a form of gaslighting? Opinions welcomed. Absolutely. So is "but I was just teasing you"and the not-unrelated "you need to smile more." Julia, should not get all riled up when I'm this sick. Argh. Gah. My dad and the exbf were masters at that sort of thing, but I was young and stupid inexperienced, and never had the courage to speak up. The Husband also does that sort of "teasing", to all three of us females. I seem to be growing more bitchy in my old age, as I no longer put up with it, and encourage the daughters to do likewise. Which, since he's only joking, is, of course, mean and very wrong of me [/snark].
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Nov 18, 2011 21:52:38 GMT -5
I heard of the term used on Farscape, but I had no idea it was based on a movie. Interesting; I'll have to check it out. I'm not so sure that this phenomenon is so clearly delineated across gender lines, though. This is exactly what my mom does to me all the time. And my brother. And my dad. And who knows who else. Also, I am actually *really* *really* sensitive to other people's emotional states AND I tend to remember minutia of detail from many years prior, much more than other people, male or female. So, I've gotten this *a lot* in my life, but more for my weird brain than for being a woman. For what it's worth. I know what you're talking about, Liz. Some people, regardless of gender, don't like others who act or think differently from them. But I was thinking about gaslighting when I met this guy for dinner whmo I had met via Match.com. We were talking about Steve Jobs, because he is reading his biography, and he said that one of the things he liked about Jobs was his ability to use both his left and right brain equally well. The guy said he didn't have a lot of opportunity to use his right brain at his job (database administrator) and so I asked him if he had any hobbies where he was able to use the right (creative) side of his brain, and he was stumped. So he asked me what I liked to do, and I mentioned crafts, and he responded, "Well you're a woman, that's why" or something like that. I kind of took offense to that, and said that he shouldn't be sexist, men do all kinds of crafts too -- pottery, photography, woodworking, model-making, and on and on. And his response was, "Can't you take a joke?" And that gave me pause. I'm wondering what you all think? I know you weren't there, but do you really think he was really joking and it just went over my head, or was telling me to "take a joke" a form of gaslighting? Opinions welcomed. Yes, it's gaslighting as defense mechanism. Because you knew that crafting is not a uniquely female pursuit and he didn't and rather than concede the point and acknowledge his ignorance (or accept living in a world where such thing is true), he opted instead to belittle you to feel more powerful and in control.
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Post by Sue on Nov 19, 2011 7:29:43 GMT -5
I know what you're talking about, Liz. Some people, regardless of gender, don't like others who act or think differently from them. But I was thinking about gaslighting when I met this guy for dinner whmo I had met via Match.com. We were talking about Steve Jobs, because he is reading his biography, and he said that one of the things he liked about Jobs was his ability to use both his left and right brain equally well. The guy said he didn't have a lot of opportunity to use his right brain at his job (database administrator) and so I asked him if he had any hobbies where he was able to use the right (creative) side of his brain, and he was stumped. So he asked me what I liked to do, and I mentioned crafts, and he responded, "Well you're a woman, that's why" or something like that. I kind of took offense to that, and said that he shouldn't be sexist, men do all kinds of crafts too -- pottery, photography, woodworking, model-making, and on and on. And his response was, "Can't you take a joke?" And that gave me pause. I'm wondering what you all think? I know you weren't there, but do you really think he was really joking and it just went over my head, or was telling me to "take a joke" a form of gaslighting? Opinions welcomed. Yes, it's gaslighting as defense mechanism. Because you knew that crafting is not a uniquely female pursuit and he didn't and rather than concede the point and acknowledge his ignorance (or accept living in a world where such thing is true), he opted instead to belittle you to feel more powerful and in control. I think all of you are correct that this was gaslighting, but I don't think we can necessarily know if this exposes a serious underlying character flaw (it very well may) or simply ignorance and defensiveness as Liz suggests. I know "they" say that men can't be changed but I think you get more than one date and one instance before you write him off as un-educate-able. It is ironic for me to suggest such advice because I am a master of non-confrontation (thank heavens I lucked into a guy at 22 who rarely needs to be called on stuff). If there is a next time that's when you explain the concept of gaslighting and see if he is willing to admit his error and change. As I understand it (and obviously in this instance) it is a defense mechanism against admitting that you are wrong and throwing it back on the woman (or "weaker" person). If he has been doing this all his life it may take someone actually pointing it out to him to make him aware of what has become a "harmless" reflex habit. Jim and I can be very sarcastic and our kids have picked it up and found that they sometimes are reflexively sarcastic with others who were not raised that way. We aren't bad people but it sometimes takes being called on it and having it pointed it out very directly for us to recognize that we've unintentionally hurt someone. I"m thinking of some of the dust-ups here on the board way back in the day before we knew one another so well. So, I agree it is gaslighting but think that if a person has other redeeming qualities it might be worth the effort to at least see if they are willing to be remediated. Even if you throw him back in the pond you may give him something to think about and improve him for the next person he dates or those he works with.
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Post by Sue on Nov 19, 2011 7:31:31 GMT -5
If you didn't step over navels, Abraham Lincoln wouldn't misplace you.
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Post by Michelle on Nov 19, 2011 10:23:17 GMT -5
Thanks for weighing in, everyone! It really gives me something to think about. I let it go at the time, because I don't like confrontation, particularly in a public place. But if comments like that become a pattern, I'll definitely discuss it with him and see how he responds.
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Post by Karen on Nov 19, 2011 12:26:40 GMT -5
Thanks for weighing in, everyone! It really gives me something to think about. I let it go at the time, because I don't like confrontation, particularly in a public place. But if comments like that become a pattern, I'll definitely discuss it with him and see how he responds. Mr. Match.com (I used Matchmaker ) sounds a bit insecure or maybe he has some slight 'ex' issues, and definitely took the offensive. I guess in response to his - 'well, you're a woman' comment it might have been better to express how you felt about his comment in a more emotional way. Not in a judgey way by using the 'sexist' label, but using language like - 'ouch, that comment stung a little'...and then keeping quiet and seeing if he acknowledged your feelings. As it was, he felt he needed to defend himself when you mentioned the 'sexist' label. He felt you were judging him, and instead of acknowledging his feelings about that (like a lot of people do), he struck out. Anyway...gaslighting, yes. Jury still out if he's an ass, or if he is just clueless. I used to snip back at Nick when we first moved in together because I was so used to being 'gaslighted' by my ex, that I took any honest negative (even slight) comment from him as an offense. I was so on guard. We worked it through tho - he being more patient than me...altho now, I get it and I don't put up with the occasional gaslighting that he does try to put past me. We usually end up laughing about each other's insecurity's and messed up psyches. If he can't be open with you, I'd move on. Go Big Red! Doesn't look good right now. 7-0, Michigan. Nebraska needs this win or they are absolutely done for the season. ETA: Also - even if he WAS joking when he made the comment, you shouldn't feel that feeling offended by the comment - even put forward jokingly - was in anyway wrong of you to feel that way. Because that was an honest feeling on your part. Joking or not - it made you feel bad. And that is you and you are awesome!!! I get the blonde jokes all the time and my boss just told me the other day that I have 'wild' ideas since I defend the Occupy Wall Street people. That is gaslighting, because we had just got done talking nicely about it, but it totally contradicted himself in his argument and I called him on it. Which he didn't like. So, he ended with - he believes Fox News, not anything I might have seen in an 'unbiased' news source - because doesn't jive with his world view. The 'wild ideas' comment was gaslighting. I should really keep my views quiet at work. Just nod and smile.
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Post by Karen on Nov 19, 2011 12:34:07 GMT -5
I know what you're talking about, Liz. Some people, regardless of gender, don't like others who act or think differently from them. But I was thinking about gaslighting when I met this guy for dinner whmo I had met via Match.com. We were talking about Steve Jobs, because he is reading his biography, and he said that one of the things he liked about Jobs was his ability to use both his left and right brain equally well. The guy said he didn't have a lot of opportunity to use his right brain at his job (database administrator) and so I asked him if he had any hobbies where he was able to use the right (creative) side of his brain, and he was stumped. So he asked me what I liked to do, and I mentioned crafts, and he responded, "Well you're a woman, that's why" or something like that. I kind of took offense to that, and said that he shouldn't be sexist, men do all kinds of crafts too -- pottery, photography, woodworking, model-making, and on and on. And his response was, "Can't you take a joke?" And that gave me pause. I'm wondering what you all think? I know you weren't there, but do you really think he was really joking and it just went over my head, or was telling me to "take a joke" a form of gaslighting? Opinions welcomed. Absolutely. So is "but I was just teasing you"and the not-unrelated "you need to smile more." Julia, should not get all riled up when I'm this sick. Oh, I HATE the 'you should smile more' comment. Well really? Time like that I feel like saying -- "You should smile more, too - with your mouth shut - especially when you feel like giving unsolicited advice." blech
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