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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Nov 19, 2011 14:50:56 GMT -5
Yes, it's gaslighting as defense mechanism. Because you knew that crafting is not a uniquely female pursuit and he didn't and rather than concede the point and acknowledge his ignorance (or accept living in a world where such thing is true), he opted instead to belittle you to feel more powerful and in control. I think all of you are correct that this was gaslighting, but I don't think we can necessarily know if this exposes a serious underlying character flaw (it very well may) or simply ignorance and defensiveness as Liz suggests. I know "they" say that men can't be changed but I think you get more than one date and one instance before you write him off as un-educate-able. It is ironic for me to suggest such advice because I am a master of non-confrontation (thank heavens I lucked into a guy at 22 who rarely needs to be called on stuff). If there is a next time that's when you explain the concept of gaslighting and see if he is willing to admit his error and change. As I understand it (and obviously in this instance) it is a defense mechanism against admitting that you are wrong and throwing it back on the woman (or "weaker" person). If he has been doing this all his life it may take someone actually pointing it out to him to make him aware of what has become a "harmless" reflex habit. Jim and I can be very sarcastic and our kids have picked it up and found that they sometimes are reflexively sarcastic with others who were not raised that way. We aren't bad people but it sometimes takes being called on it and having it pointed it out very directly for us to recognize that we've unintentionally hurt someone. I"m thinking of some of the dust-ups here on the board way back in the day before we knew one another so well. So, I agree it is gaslighting but think that if a person has other redeeming qualities it might be worth the effort to at least see if they are willing to be remediated. Even if you throw him back in the pond you may give him something to think about and improve him for the next person he dates or those he works with. There's two problems with that: one of them is that no matter what the proportion of "people who are intending to hurt" and "people who are just playing a little rough" so to speak, accepting all gaslighting-type behaviors as examples of the latter gives cover to behaviors of the former type. The other one is that some people can't handle any rough play, and they don't wear stop signs. As I tried, once, to explain to my mom's next younger brother, even if 80% of children he was in contact with as a Boy Scout leader and school volunteer thought his teasing and practical jokes were hilarious, the 20% who didn't were being hurt by him. And no, they didn't need to "toughen up:" steel gets tough when it's hammered but glass just gets more and more broken. He was the adult, and it was his responsibility to identify kids he was hurting and change his damned behavior. I'd heard a conversation between three college students, in the back of a bus on my way to work, talking about just how much they'd hated him as kids, how they all skipped school on the days the programs he volunteered for were scheduled. He did not abuse, not touch, nor have any private contact with the kids, it was all verbal teasing, and they hated him for it. Julia, meeting people on their own ground and being kind to them goes a long way toward sainthood, I think
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Post by Queen E on Nov 19, 2011 16:04:10 GMT -5
Speaking of which, a friend (well, we've not spoken for a long time, but he found me on facebook and I couldn't think of a compelling reason not to accept the request), did something very similar to me the other day.
I put the whole "got my PhD" announcement there, since it would have been too hard to e-mail everybody, and after this person congratulated me, he pinged me for a chat and wrote "what? you couldn't find something more fuzzy-headed to get your degree in?"
I ended the chat right there, rightly pissed off. Of course, part of the reason why I hadn't talked to him in years was the way he would drop his IQ into so many conversations, trying to figure out what mine was so he could satisfy himself his was higher. Now that I think about it, he probably felt threatened, both than and now, by an intelligent woman. But what an asshole thing to do in response to something I worked so hard for and sacrificed so much to accomplish.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Nov 19, 2011 16:19:58 GMT -5
Speaking of which, a friend (well, we've not spoken for a long time, but he found me on facebook and I couldn't think of a compelling reason not to accept the request), did something very similar to me the other day. I put the whole "got my PhD" announcement there, since it would have been too hard to e-mail everybody, and after this person congratulated me, he pinged me for a chat and wrote "what? you couldn't find something more fuzzy-headed to get your degree in?" I ended the chat right there, rightly pissed off. Of course, part of the reason why I hadn't talked to him in years was the way he would drop his IQ into so many conversations, trying to figure out what mine was so he could satisfy himself his was higher. Now that I think about it, he probably felt threatened, both than and now, by an intelligent woman. But what an asshole thing to do in response to something I worked so hard for and sacrificed so much to accomplish. Argh. That's just... argh. I am as proud of you, Erin, as I will be of Emily one day when she gets her doctorate. That's an amazing accomplishment. Yeah, you work really hard on something, you show it to the guy, and he says something, one little nasty picky thing, that takes all your pleasure out of it, and all you can see is that mistake he picked on, or that the colors don't work because he said they don't. Then he says he was only trying to help. And the Husband wonders why I don't show him my craftsy crap stuff any more...
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Post by Karen on Nov 19, 2011 16:31:00 GMT -5
Speaking of which, a friend (well, we've not spoken for a long time, but he found me on facebook and I couldn't think of a compelling reason not to accept the request), did something very similar to me the other day. I put the whole "got my PhD" announcement there, since it would have been too hard to e-mail everybody, and after this person congratulated me, he pinged me for a chat and wrote "what? you couldn't find something more fuzzy-headed to get your degree in?" I ended the chat right there, rightly pissed off. Of course, part of the reason why I hadn't talked to him in years was the way he would drop his IQ into so many conversations, trying to figure out what mine was so he could satisfy himself his was higher. Now that I think about it, he probably felt threatened, both than and now, by an intelligent woman. But what an asshole thing to do in response to something I worked so hard for and sacrificed so much to accomplish. Ack! So sorry your belief in giving people the benefit of the doubt backfired. Fuck that asshole. You rock!
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Post by Karen on Nov 19, 2011 16:34:11 GMT -5
I think all of you are correct that this was gaslighting, but I don't think we can necessarily know if this exposes a serious underlying character flaw (it very well may) or simply ignorance and defensiveness as Liz suggests. I know "they" say that men can't be changed but I think you get more than one date and one instance before you write him off as un-educate-able. It is ironic for me to suggest such advice because I am a master of non-confrontation (thank heavens I lucked into a guy at 22 who rarely needs to be called on stuff). If there is a next time that's when you explain the concept of gaslighting and see if he is willing to admit his error and change. As I understand it (and obviously in this instance) it is a defense mechanism against admitting that you are wrong and throwing it back on the woman (or "weaker" person). If he has been doing this all his life it may take someone actually pointing it out to him to make him aware of what has become a "harmless" reflex habit. Jim and I can be very sarcastic and our kids have picked it up and found that they sometimes are reflexively sarcastic with others who were not raised that way. We aren't bad people but it sometimes takes being called on it and having it pointed it out very directly for us to recognize that we've unintentionally hurt someone. I"m thinking of some of the dust-ups here on the board way back in the day before we knew one another so well. So, I agree it is gaslighting but think that if a person has other redeeming qualities it might be worth the effort to at least see if they are willing to be remediated. Even if you throw him back in the pond you may give him something to think about and improve him for the next person he dates or those he works with. There's two problems with that: one of them is that no matter what the proportion of "people who are intending to hurt" and "people who are just playing a little rough" so to speak, accepting all gaslighting-type behaviors as examples of the former gives cover to behaviors of the latter type. The other one is that some people can't handle any rough play, and they don't wear stop signs. As I tried, once, to explain to my mom's next younger brother, even if 80% of children he was in contact with as a Boy Scout leader and school volunteer thought his teasing and practical jokes were hilarious, the 20% who didn't were being hurt by him. And no, they didn't need to "toughen up:" steel gets tough when it's hammered but glass just gets more and more broken. He was the adult, and it was his responsibility to identify kids he was hurting and change his damned behavior. I'd heard a conversation between three college students, in the back of a bus on my way to work, talking about just how much they'd hated him as kids, how they all skipped school on the days the programs he volunteered for were scheduled. He did not abuse, not touch, nor have any private contact with the kids, it was all verbal teasing, and they hated him for it. Julia, meeting people on their own ground and being kind to them goes a long way toward sainthood, I think Did he ever get the hint? My ex FIL was a bully teacher. The kids both feard and hated him, too. He didn't like kids, but was an excellent musician who hated being a teacher, i think. This kind of fits in with the whole push to ban dodge ball. I hated that game as a kid. Couldn't see the purpose of it. Thankfully, most of my gym classes didn't partake.
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Nov 19, 2011 19:03:37 GMT -5
Speaking of which, a friend (well, we've not spoken for a long time, but he found me on facebook and I couldn't think of a compelling reason not to accept the request), did something very similar to me the other day. I put the whole "got my PhD" announcement there, since it would have been too hard to e-mail everybody, and after this person congratulated me, he pinged me for a chat and wrote "what? you couldn't find something more fuzzy-headed to get your degree in?" I ended the chat right there, rightly pissed off. Of course, part of the reason why I hadn't talked to him in years was the way he would drop his IQ into so many conversations, trying to figure out what mine was so he could satisfy himself his was higher. Now that I think about it, he probably felt threatened, both than and now, by an intelligent woman. But what an asshole thing to do in response to something I worked so hard for and sacrificed so much to accomplish. Argh. That's just... argh. I am as proud of you, Erin, as I will be of Emily one day when she gets her doctorate. That's an amazing accomplishment. Yeah, you work really hard on something, you show it to the guy, and he says something, one little nasty picky thing, that takes all your pleasure out of it, and all you can see is that mistake he picked on, or that the colors don't work because he said they don't. Then he says he was only trying to help. And the Husband wonders why I don't show him my craftsy crap stuff any more... Nothing creative to add, just a big for all accomplishments that are not sufficiently acknowledged by the mutton headed among us.
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Nov 19, 2011 19:04:42 GMT -5
And people wonder why I swore off color war during my much-hated camp years.
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Post by Sue on Nov 19, 2011 19:50:13 GMT -5
And people wonder why I swore off color war during my much-hated camp years. ? Also -- cool posting from the future: my computer says it is 6:49 but that Diane posted at 7:04. Also --- Go VANDERBILT, beat UTn
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Post by Queen E on Nov 19, 2011 19:55:47 GMT -5
Speaking of which, a friend (well, we've not spoken for a long time, but he found me on facebook and I couldn't think of a compelling reason not to accept the request), did something very similar to me the other day. I put the whole "got my PhD" announcement there, since it would have been too hard to e-mail everybody, and after this person congratulated me, he pinged me for a chat and wrote "what? you couldn't find something more fuzzy-headed to get your degree in?" I ended the chat right there, rightly pissed off. Of course, part of the reason why I hadn't talked to him in years was the way he would drop his IQ into so many conversations, trying to figure out what mine was so he could satisfy himself his was higher. Now that I think about it, he probably felt threatened, both than and now, by an intelligent woman. But what an asshole thing to do in response to something I worked so hard for and sacrificed so much to accomplish. Argh. That's just... argh. I am as proud of you, Erin, as I will be of Emily one day when she gets her doctorate. That's an amazing accomplishment. Yeah, you work really hard on something, you show it to the guy, and he says something, one little nasty picky thing, that takes all your pleasure out of it, and all you can see is that mistake he picked on, or that the colors don't work because he said they don't. Then he says he was only trying to help. And the Husband wonders why I don't show him my craftsy crap stuff any more... Well, he clearly does not have the eye you have. I love your crafty awesomeness, even more so because I have absolutely ZERO skill in that department; it makes me admire yours even more. Maybe the most powerful thing you can do is to feel sorry for him that he lacks the ability to do what you do. That puts the power back with you.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Nov 19, 2011 20:13:23 GMT -5
Absolutely. So is "but I was just teasing you"and the not-unrelated "you need to smile more." Julia, should not get all riled up when I'm this sick. Oh, I HATE the 'you should smile more' comment. Well really? Time like that I feel like saying -- "You should smile more, too - with your mouth shut - especially when you feel like giving unsolicited advice." blech I've gotten that a lot, too, but I've also come to realize that my emotions are often misinterpreted by others and often my emotional responses are considered strange and sometimes make other people uncomfortable. But as with everything else, I think there are three options: pretend to be like everyone else and be miserable inside, be myself and considered crazy by others around me, or try to negotiate a happy medium in between. So I try to keep a slight smile on my face when I'm around others and have cultivated this professional persona that makes other people comfortable, but have accepted that I'm always going to be seen as the weirdo who is bored by horror films and finds certain things repulsive or hysterical when no one else does.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Nov 19, 2011 20:15:57 GMT -5
Oh, I'm in Cheyenne, BTW.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Nov 19, 2011 20:42:39 GMT -5
Argh. That's just... argh. I am as proud of you, Erin, as I will be of Emily one day when she gets her doctorate. That's an amazing accomplishment. Yeah, you work really hard on something, you show it to the guy, and he says something, one little nasty picky thing, that takes all your pleasure out of it, and all you can see is that mistake he picked on, or that the colors don't work because he said they don't. Then he says he was only trying to help. And the Husband wonders why I don't show him my craftsy crap stuff any more... Well, he clearly does not have the eye you have. I love your crafty awesomeness, even more so because I have absolutely ZERO skill in that department; it makes me admire yours even more. Maybe the most powerful thing you can do is to feel sorry for him that he lacks the ability to do what you do. That puts the power back with you. That's the hardest thing - Paul is creative, and on top of that he matches colors for a living, so I'm inclined to trust him more than I trust myself. Except that he doesn't like the color combinations I do. Different eyes, and I don't trust mine. Which is my problem, and I am trying to work on more confidence in myself. Short version: Thank you, and
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Nov 19, 2011 20:43:42 GMT -5
Oh, I'm in Cheyenne, BTW. Which reminds me that I am in awe of you and the path you're following, too. I don't say it often enough, but I do mean it.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Nov 19, 2011 21:13:30 GMT -5
Oh, I'm in Cheyenne, BTW. Which reminds me that I am in awe of you and the path you're following, too. I don't say it often enough, but I do mean it. Aww, thanks! I feel comforted to know that you guys are taking the journey with me, vicariously speaking.
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Post by angelique on Nov 19, 2011 21:37:03 GMT -5
All this talk about gaslighting has made me wonder about a habit I have now and if it was caused by the amount of gaslighting, teasing and just plain negativeness I was raised with. I have the complete inability to accept honest praise of my talents. I seem to want people to pick apart what I do because I really don't believe that I'm receiving an honest opinion unless it's a negative one. It seems to me that this might be a side effect of being raised in an environment where the only opinions that were ever expressed were negative ones and if I got upset about it I was told I need to calm down, toughen up or take a joke, but there was never a positive opinion offered after that either.
Just makes me think.
P.S. Congrats Dr. Queen Erin! I think it is so cool that you got your doctorate in something your passionate about! And as for accepting or denying friend requests, I never feel I have to justify my choices. If it is someone I don't want privy to information about my life I just deny it and move on.
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