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Post by Nickim on Aug 13, 2003 16:19:30 GMT -5
I want to see all three parties - Angel, Spike & Buffy - just move past it all and move forward with new loves. It would make the most sense with the way Joss has set things up - and I would be upset to see him compromise that careful set-up. What Spring said.
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Post by LadyDi on Aug 13, 2003 16:25:48 GMT -5
Oh no Lee - I didn't feel like you were coming down on my post. Not at all. And I agree, it would not be impossible for B/A to get their past the "HS/idealized" history. But . . with Angel on the WB and Buffy on UPN we've seen nearly zip of the two of them relating as equal, "no stars in eyes" adults . . . so . . . my whole feeling on it is "who knows?" And since I don't think it will ever happen . . . I have to admit, I also have the feeling, "who cares?" I want to see all three parties - Angel, Spike & Buffy - just move past it all and move forward with new loves. It would make the most sense with the way Joss has set things up - and I would be upset to see him compromise that careful set-up. I sometimes wonder why I'm still so hung up on the B/S thing. She treated him like cr*p and he proved to be so much more. I should want him to get into a better, genuine relationship myself. I don't know. Why is JW saying that neither Angel or Spike will ever be able to stop loving her? Again, maybe I'm just being too literal. Thing is, Spike suffered so much for her. Seems to me that if she ever did get back together with one of them, it should be Spike. He wants her, and I want him to be happy. Of course, (as any Trekkie knows) having is not always so pleasant a thing as wanting. I suppose I should allow for the possibility of a change in the B/A ship, but I'm just so over it. Too much angst! Besides, Angel ( NOT Angelus) lied to her and hit her. ME made such a big deal out of soulless Spike's "abuse" of Buffy, but he never hurt her once he was free of the trigger. I find the B/S relationship infinitely more satisfying and I guess I just want more. They only had a few weeks/months together while trying to rebuild their relationship. D*mn. I keep having these ...and another thing moments. If Spike does Shanshu (I hate that's it still in question), he could be her man. I love it...her champion, her lover, her man. Soooooo romantic. Mmmmmmm.
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Post by LadyDi on Aug 13, 2003 20:40:02 GMT -5
Do I really think that Buffy and Spike will get back together? No. Do I want to see it anyway? BLOODY RIGHT I DO!!Okay, I think I need to clarify something I said earlier. I don't like that Buffy treated Spike like cr*p. I don't like that at all. You can't have higher standards for a soulless vamp than you do for your freakin' herione! On the other hand, the fact that they could overcome so much hurt and hostility to form a real bond of loving trust and intimacy touches me very deeply. As for Angel changing, he's shown us that he can - given enough time and a swift kick in the rear! But Spike has proven himself (IMO) to be the more adaptable of the two. He was changing and growing pre-soul. No way in H*ll could Angelus have made Spike's journey. Spike has earned (many times over) Buffy's love and trust and admiration. So will he ever know that he has it? That's my question. He certainly has mine.
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Post by RAKSHA on Aug 14, 2003 2:37:21 GMT -5
I sometimes wonder why I'm still so hung up on the B/S thing. She treated him like cr*p and he proved to be so much more. I should want him to get into a better, genuine relationship myself. I don't know. Why is JW saying that neither Angel or Spike will ever be able to stop loving her? Again, maybe I'm just being too literal. Thing is, Spike suffered so much for her. Seems to me that if she ever did get back together with one of them, it should be Spike. He wants her, and I want him to be happy. Of course, (as any Trekkie knows) having is not always so pleasant a thing as wanting. I suppose I should allow for the possibility of a change in the B/A ship, but I'm just so over it. Too much angst! Besides, Angel ( NOT Angelus) lied to her and hit her. ME made such a big deal out of soulless Spike's "abuse" of Buffy, but he never hurt her once he was free of the trigger. I find the B/S relationship infinitely more satisfying and I guess I just want more. They only had a few weeks/months together while trying to rebuild their relationship. D*mn. I keep having these ...and another thing moments. If Spike does Shanshu (I hate that's it still in question), he could be her man. I love it...her champion, her lover, her man. Soooooo romantic. Mmmmmmm. No question in my mind that if Buffy ends up with one of the two hunky vamps, it should be Our Effulgent Prince...But I betcha it won't throw down like that when the final episode of AtvS runs. It may be a matter of timing; it could take a few years for Buffy to get her head and heart together and realize that it IS Spike she really loves and wants to be with, only Spike might not have the maturity to wait for her to make that decision. I could definitely see Buffy coming back to tell him the good news, only to find Spike (a) has Ascended to heaven or somewhere else, (b) is a pile of dust in an urn on Angel's fireplace, (c) in bed with Fred or even Willow. Angel would still have to work around the happiness clause; and I'm not convinced he wants to give up his status as the Undead Soulful Vamp Champion-Hero to become a feeble mortal man or a Slayer's consort, anyway. Buffy also has to figure out what she wants in life. I think she would be bored very quickly with a life that didn't involve vamp-staking and demon-hunting and apocalypse-averting. But she should be able to do some normal things along with those activities, the pressure can ease now that there are so many more Slayers. I have said it before, and I'll say it again: I think the last episode of AtvS, or Buffy's last appearance in the Jossverse, will end with the fully baked Buffy saying goodbye to BOTH vamps for whatever reason; and Spike and Angel walking off into the fog arm in arm; with Spike saying 'Y'know, this could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship' and Angel saying "Shut up, Spike". Or vice versa (i.e. Angel saying it and Spike saying Shut Up You Git). Gail
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 14, 2003 6:51:10 GMT -5
I sometimes wonder why I'm still so hung up on the B/S thing. She treated him like cr*p and he proved to be so much more. I should want him to get into a better, genuine relationship myself. I don't know. Why is JW saying that neither Angel or Spike will ever be able to stop loving her? Again, maybe I'm just being too literal. LADY DI: I don't think you are being too literal, possibly you are being a little narrow in your thinking. What I mean is: I do think JW means this literally. Neither Spike nor Angel will ever stop loving Buffy, and, I'm guessing, Buffy will never stop loving either one of them. BUT, that doesn't mean they all can't find new, more satisfying loves in the future. GAIL: Yeah, I think if they can get SMG to be in a finale, we will see some version of what you propose.
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Post by LadyDi on Aug 15, 2003 0:08:56 GMT -5
LADY DI: I don't think you are being too literal, possibly you are being a little narrow in your thinking. What I mean is: I do think JW means this literally. Neither Spike nor Angel will ever stop loving Buffy, and, I'm guessing, Buffy will never stop loving either one of them. BUT, that doesn't mean they all can't find new, more satisfying loves in the future. That may be. There are all kinds of love, after all. I was very upset w/Joss when I read his remark, and thought how awful it would be for Spike to go on loving Buffy if they were never to be together (thinking his love still unrequited).
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Post by LadyDi on Aug 16, 2003 19:30:25 GMT -5
Maybe cuz it was or felt safer, doesn't have to confront reality . . . it's kinda of idealized. With some adult relationships, it's a big scary . . . seems more real than looking back. You tend to forget the bad things when looking back to such an innocent time. I just just picture Joss sitting in his office, reading the scripts and wondering just how he can piss us off, make us sweat . . . I haven't seen any details to how Spike comes back at the end of Ep. 1. I asked my mom the same question. She gave me pretty much the same answer. Being w/Angel would be easier and less scary. If they can't have sex then they don't have to deal with kids and responsibility and growing up (but I thought this was supposed to be about growing up).
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Post by RAKSHA on Aug 16, 2003 20:20:57 GMT -5
Maybe cuz it was or felt safer, doesn't have to confront reality . . . it's kinda of idealized. With some adult relationships, it's a big scary . . . seems more real than looking back. You tend to forget the bad things when looking back to such an innocent time. I just just picture Joss sitting in his office, reading the scripts and wondering just how he can piss us off, make us sweat . . . I haven't seen any details to how Spike comes back at the end of Ep. 1. I found a description of Spike's return, but forgot to bookmark the site where it was revealed. If you want me to tell what I read, I'll do it. What annoys me most about the spoilers I've read on Spike's foray into Angel's world is that he is still being treated by a leper/monster, even by people who weren't there when he tortured Angel. And it doesn't occur to anyone to tell Spike that he did a great and wonderful thing in closing the Hellmouth with his own life. They're still playing Kick-the-Spike. If the cool reception, as in The Fang Gang theorizing that it would be best to send Spike back to eternal peace, motivates Spike to become evil again, I'll be sooo angry. Don't want him a saint either, but I don't want him to lose what he gained at such a high price last season. I also wonder whether a plot is being set up via Spike's predicament (i.e. being owned by Wolfram & Hart, unable to leave L.A., and incorporeal) to pit Angel against W&H in a direct confrontation, and eventually a break from W&H, with Spike's right to freedom being the catalyst. Which could be neat if well done, think of the irony, Angel battling or working to free someone he strongly dislikes and resents from the powers that also hold the happiness of Angel's son in their diabolical hands. I think part of Buffy desperately yearns for that more innocent time, when she had a mother to take care of her financially, when Giles was there all the time, and she wasn't so stressed and tired with the burden of growing up too soon and too traumatically. Gail
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Post by LadyDi on Aug 16, 2003 20:44:12 GMT -5
I found a description of Spike's return, but forgot to bookmark the site where it was revealed. If you want me to tell what I read, I'll do it. What annoys me most about the spoilers I've read on Spike's foray into Angel's world is that he is still being treated by a leper/monster, even by people who weren't there when he tortured Angel. And it doesn't occur to anyone to tell Spike that he did a great and wonderful thing in closing the Hellmouth with his own life. They're still playing Kick-the-Spike. If the cool reception, as in The Fang Gang theorizing that it would be best to send Spike back to eternal peace, motivates Spike to become evil again, I'll be sooo angry. Don't want him a saint either, but I don't want him to lose what he gained at such a high price last season. I also wonder whether a plot is being set up via Spike's predicament (i.e. being owned by Wolfram & Hart, unable to leave L.A., and incorporeal) to pit Angel against W&H in a direct confrontation, and eventually a break from W&H, with Spike's right to freedom being the catalyst. Which could be neat if well done, think of the irony, Angel battling or working to free someone he strongly dislikes and resents from the powers that also hold the happiness of Angel's son in their diabolical hands. I think part of Buffy desperately yearns for that more innocent time, when she had a mother to take care of her financially, when Giles was there all the time, and she wasn't so stressed and tired with the burden of growing up too soon and too traumatically. Gail Yes, plz. From the spoiler for ep. 2, I figure someone tells Spike about the prophecy (his use of the word destiny). I tried to register for a site that claimed to have the info, but they never emailed me a password I could use to log on. I know what you mean about Kick-the-Spike. Angel didn't even bother to tell the FG that Spike was ensouled. You'd think sacrificing himself to save the world and closing the Hellmouth would get him a little respect at last. Apparently, you'd be wrong. I too wonder about how much work Angel and the FG are going to be putting into getting Spike back. Angel for one certainly doesn't want him. At least when Buffy came back from the dead, she got to come back to people who loved her. Spike comes back to people who don't like him (Angel), only know of him - and the old him at that (Wes), or don't know him at all (Fred & Gunn). I'm hoping he'll find a friend in Lorne. Since Lorne has the ability to read people the way he does, he'll know that Spike is a stand-up guy.
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Post by RAKSHA on Aug 16, 2003 21:36:20 GMT -5
Yes, plz. From the spoiler for ep. 2, I figure someone tells Spike about the prophecy (his use of the word destiny). I tried to register for a site that claimed to have the info, but they never emailed me a password I could use to log on. I know what you mean about Kick-the-Spike. Angel didn't even bother to tell the FG that Spike was ensouled. You'd think sacrificing himself to save the world and closing the Hellmouth would get him a little respect at last. Apparently, you'd be wrong. I too wonder about how much work Angel and the FG are going to be putting into getting Spike back. Angel for one certainly doesn't want him. At least when Buffy came back from the dead, she got to come back to people who loved her. Spike comes back to people who don't like him (Angel), only know of him - and the old him at that (Wes), or don't know him at all (Fred & Gunn). I'm hoping he'll find a friend in Lorne. Since Lorne has the ability to read people the way he does, he'll know that Spike is a stand-up guy. The spoiler I read for Spike's return said that at the end of Episode 1, Angel found an envelope on his desk and opened it. The amulet was in the envelope; and Spike came out of the amulet, screaming. (well, gee; he comes back to some sort of life after burning up and exploding, and the first thing he sees is Angel? Wouldn't you scream too?) I'll go see if I can find the site. Gail
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Post by LadyDi on Aug 16, 2003 21:46:50 GMT -5
The spoiler I read for Spike's return said that at the end of Episode 1, Angel found an envelope on his desk and opened it. The amulet was in the envelope; and Spike came out of the amulet, screaming. (well, gee; he comes back to some sort of life after burning up and exploding, and the first thing he sees is Angel? Wouldn't you scream too?) I'll go see if I can find the site. Gail I sure would. It seems Spike doesn't realize he's non-corporeal. He must feel solid to himself. I think ghost is definitely a misleading term for whatever he is. It sounds more like he's trapped in his own little dimension or some kind of space bubble.
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Post by RAKSHA on Aug 16, 2003 21:57:07 GMT -5
I sure would. It seems Spike doesn't realize he's non-corporeal. He must feel solid to himself. I think ghost is definitely a misleading term for whatever he is. It sounds more like he's trapped in his own little dimension or some kind of space bubble. Here's the URL. Go there and go to Season 5, where there are spoilers for the first three episodes. www.tvtome.com/Angel/season5.htmlGail
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Post by RAKSHA on Aug 16, 2003 21:59:38 GMT -5
I sure would. It seems Spike doesn't realize he's non-corporeal. He must feel solid to himself. I think ghost is definitely a misleading term for whatever he is. It sounds more like he's trapped in his own little dimension or some kind of space bubble. I dunno, he can phase into/through solid objects and people. I think he would realize it, and be very frustrated about his condition. Spike has always been a very physical person. Poor guy probably won't be able to eat buffalo wings or wheetabix anymore, or anything else either. Bummer. Gail
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Post by LadyDi on Aug 17, 2003 11:23:00 GMT -5
I dunno, he can phase into/through solid objects and people. I think he would realize it, and be very frustrated about his condition. Spike has always been a very physical person. Poor guy probably won't be able to eat buffalo wings or wheetabix anymore, or anything else either. Bummer. Gail Dang. I had this great theory all worked out that Spike was corporeal, but out of phase w/this dimension. That would've explained the brain waves and lack of ectoplasm. It also would've explained why he didn't realize he was a ghost right away (guess he's just disoriented - who wouldn't be?) and it would've meant that he didn't need a new body 'cause he already had one. Oh, well. So much for logic.
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Post by LeeHollins on Aug 18, 2003 14:08:24 GMT -5
Filmjerk is reporting that the episode title for Angel 5.03 is "Unleashed" - here's what they say: Angel Episode 503 is called “Unleashed”, and what’s unleashed are werewolves! Woo Hoo! Nina is bitten by a werewolf, and we all know what that means. (We do, right? She becomes a werewolf, too.) The gang must find her before she becomes the main course in a nutty dinner party where rich people eat werewolf. Did W&H turn her on purpose, just to serve her up to rich clients? I sure hope so. Here's the link: www.filmjerk.com/nuke/article593.html
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