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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:19:33 GMT -5
Yes Diane, you definitely got the picture I was trying to send. I just wanted to keep the misquotation a little closer to the original.
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:20:15 GMT -5
I never have the benefit of an edit button or I'd add this to my last post, since it's related but I didn't think of it until after I'd already posted.
When considering one's definition of a human, consider Spike and Angel. If a person ceases to be human once their soul is removed, then Spike and Angel are again human since their souls have been returned. Or if a person ceases to be human because of the demon added, then at what point do we define a person is no longer human, say in the case of Caleb with his super strength or of the Slayers who's power apparently comes from demonic origins?
What exactly is it that makes us human, that we no longer possess (or instead, that we gain) when becoming a vampire? And from that, then examine whether or not it would be right to kill Caleb -- is he, indeed, human.
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:20:42 GMT -5
Faster pussycat; kill, kill!
Yeah THAT was the line! Dang it!
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:21:30 GMT -5
Spring - I loved that analysis! After reading it, I 'see' so much more in the episode.
The relationship between Spike and Harmony is so much more complex than I had seen before. And knowing that makes the episode very much more intense and interesting, even though I always liked it before. Thank you!
To spread the credit, the original information on the JM interview itself was provided by Lee H. What I did was read more into what JM said, with some interpretaton about his date and dumping by Mercedes.
What brand and model of DVD player do you have that zooms? I think I want one.
Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:22:18 GMT -5
David said 'This stands as a testement to just how desperate I am to discuss all things Buffy; since I'm not really a Spike worshipper, I generally avoid the Spike Admiration Society meetings. But desperate times (no episode board to post to) require desperate measures .... '
Sheesh, Cordelia, you really know how to win friends don't you? I know I'M all honored feeling now... :-)
But, see my post #75. I think on the issue of 'what's human' we bring up the same things
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:22:53 GMT -5
Alexandra, I know that my dvd player doesn't zoom, but when I play my DVDs on my computer, they do. Which makes it really cool cause its already close up and in my lap...
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:23:54 GMT -5
//But, see my post #75. I think on the issue of 'what's human' we bring up the same things. //
I did read your post, and I got a different spin off of it than the one I was trying to go with. You raise the point that whether or not it's wrong to kill humans is no longer a black and white issue. I, on the other hand, was looking at what it is that defines a human, since if someone no longer fits that description specifically, then whether or not it's wrong to kill them ceases to be an issue, black, white or grey.
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:24:49 GMT -5
The Night of the Hunter (1955) A tall, handsome "preacher" - his knuckles eerily tattooed with "love" and "hate" - roams the countryside, spreading the gospel... and leaving a trail of murdered women in his wake.
Rusty Goode
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:26:47 GMT -5
Confession time: I've been spoiled on this episode for quite some time. I knew this was coming, and that just made it worse. Imagine waiting for your favorite character on your all time favorite show to get his eye poked out. It sucked. I wish I had something more eloquent to say than that, but I'm still pretty upset.
So, it is with heavy heart that I give my thoughts on this episode.
Caleb must die. Soon. Painfully. Nuff said about him, though Nathan Fillion plays him quite well.
I genuinely felt for Robin Wood after LMPTM. Therefore I understand his actions...but that doesn't make them any less asinine. How is Buffy supposed to feed all those mouths in her house? He's acting out of spite, pure and simple.
Spike and Faith set off sparks that could be seen in seven states. Seriously hot. Eliza Dushku is a goddess.
The pillow fight sequence was funny. Faith fighting a Vulcan was hilarious.
If there is one thing that is made abundantly clear in this episode, it's Buffy's utter disregard for the opinions of those around her. Hindsight being 20/20, clearly she made a rash, unwise decision.
Wait a moment....is it hindsight, really? Or did she have ample opportunity to change her decision regarding the vineyard attack?
Every member of the inner circle counseled against it. Willow, Xander, Giles, Spike....all made valid points. She blew right past their objections and ordered them full steam ahead, damn the torpedoes.
In the old days, this was the time for "research mode." Why in the world wouldn't Buffy wait for Willow to find info on the mark left on the potential's neck?
Let's learn something about this guy before we make a move. This is more than reasonable. Buffy, however, feels like she's being called out. She takes it personally. She let her ego get in the way of good sense.
Now, was she right about the importance of that vineyard? Absolutely. Something in there is extremely important to the good guys. I don't question that. I just question her allowing her arrogance to get ahead of her brain.
Everyone in the Scooby Gang has been fighting evil nearly as long as she has. They don't have her power, of course; but they are all vitally important advisors because of their experience. This doesn't make them right all the time, but if every last one of them are uncomfortable with the plan, Buffy should've listened.
There is one more thing to talk about. He deserves his own post.
Rob Sorenson
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:27:27 GMT -5
Yes...so now we know how to defeat Caleb. We need an old woman, a rocking chair, and a gun full of buckshot...
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:29:42 GMT -5
Sue P. said, "Caleb said (about one of the dead girls): 'One who's already paid her wages.' I took this to be a direct reference to the scripture which says, 'The wages of sin is death.'"
I agree about the reference to scripture. But Caleb (i.e., a writer) got the meaning snarled up. Wages are earned. So Caleb should have said, "one who's already earned her wages". I think the writer was mixing up the phrases with "paying one's dues".
Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:30:58 GMT -5
Patti says (about David's comment that the fact that he posted here is a sign of his desperation): "Sheesh, Cordelia, you really know how to win friends don't you? I know I'M all honored feeling now... :-)"
Oh Patti, you crack me up.
DAVID (Cordelia, Anya): I second the smiley face by Patti though; I am assuming from knowing you from the ep boards that you didn't mean to come off quite the way you did - believe me, one does not need to be desperate to post here - I've not found a higher level of discussion anywhere. Sure we like to have fun with the shirtless Spike comments and the drooling too. But Robert and Joshua and Vlad put up with it OK.
BEING HUMAN: To me, someone with superpowers who is using them toward evil is no longer human, and can be killed without violating the "killing humans is bad" thing. But BtVS also seems to be espousing a "killing anything good and/or defenseless is bad" posture . . . Spike wasn't killed in Season 4 because of his defenselessness - though Spike did some nasty stuff in Season 4, helping Adam, it was clear that his chipped defenselessness meant it wasn't OK to kill him. The Scoobies didn't feel right about it, and neither did Buffy. And when you look at amibiguous or "good" demons like Clem or Whistler . . . I would say they also fall into the "you shouldn't kill them - killing them not OK" territory.
CALEB would be OK to kill. I mean, he may have started out human, but then, so did vampires. Those superpowers means he has transformed into something other than human.
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:31:48 GMT -5
Someone recently asked about italicizing words and why her words disappeared when she tried it (Deborah?). I didn't see anyone responding yet, so I'll try.
In my example I will use parentheses for the other sideways 'html marks' (found over the period and comma on the keyboard).
Anything you want to be italicized goes between two separate double marks:
(I)Spike(/I)
The forward slash indicates where you want the italicizing to end.
Hope that helps.
P.S. What are those marks called, anyway?
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:32:29 GMT -5
I'm sorry you're forced to be so desperate, David, but all civil discourse is always welcome here.
So you are very much welcome here.
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:33:07 GMT -5
Rob, that was...a surprise. You chilled me to the bone. That was truly scary, and necessary, and thank you. And you aren't really finished, right? There's an epilogue?
Patti T.
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