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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:02:37 GMT -5
Nan, you said 'How are we to categorize Caleb, and therefore what use of deadly force is morally permissable in opposing him?'
I also wondered what Caleb is. His strength wasn't human. But I had NO qualms about using any sort of force to oppose him. If he's human, he's still a monster. Worse, he's a monster who made a choice. I say 'Kill pussycat, kill.'
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:03:49 GMT -5
DAWN had a haircut? Did not notice this at all! I guess SHE's not exactly on my radar, is she? I will look for it in my THIRD watching of the episode...
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:05:06 GMT -5
Michelle, if you can catch the ep delayed, well and good. If not, I have a tape I can lend you if need be.
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:05:52 GMT -5
How can the bringers and Caleb be killed if they are human? In no particular order: 1. Because they are the incarnation of evil. 2. Because 'the police in Sunnydale are massively stupid'. 3. Because the lines between who is human and who is a monster have been continually and increasingly blurred in seasons 6 and 7. 4. Because sometimes it is necessary to go to war.
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:07:19 GMT -5
Spring: "I could rewatch that Spike & Faith scene a hundred times, even with the sound turned down. Delicious"
yeah...sometimes a picture IS worth a thousand moans, isn't it?
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:10:24 GMT -5
Caleb is the perfect evil fanatic--Robert Mitchum with super powers.
Oooh Rusty! That is great! You are so right, that IS who he was playing. And Night of the Hunter is one of my all time favorite films too.
But...save Joss from being burned at the stake? I'm waiting to see what he does with Spike. If I don't like it, I'll be tossing a few burning bushes on the fire myself.
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:11:20 GMT -5
But the rules in the Jossverse have been that killing a human is murder. It was murder with Faith did it, for which she's spent a couple of years (so far) in prison. It was murder when Giles smothered Ben, though Giles has not had to do any external penance for it.
So, not in terms of my morals (if any) or my preferences, are we contradicting ourselves here (read: Mutant Enemy). The rules of the game so far do not allow for war, righteous or unrighteous, defensive or preemptive. Killing humans is WRONG, it's been specified, and is the justification for Buffy wiping out scores and scores of vamps on sight, just because they're vamps and by definition kill people, even if they haven't had a chance to do in even a single one yet (just risen, for instance).
I'm trying to figure out if ME is contravening its own rules, established quite firmly with major characters over the course of the series.
If Caleb is human, Caleb cannot morally be killed either by the Slayer or by her adherants, at her direction.
And we've already established that it's wrong to commit a wrong to avert a wrong, correct? Buffy *didn't* take the mystical influx of demonic power...because it would have been *wrong*...correct?
So what is ME playing at now?
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:12:12 GMT -5
"If we do lose him, I hope at least that JM shows up quickly as some other character"
(Holding fingers in ears and squenching eyes closed) 'NO NO NO! Don't WANT new character! WANT SPIKE! WANT SPIKE! WANT SPIKE!!'(loud wailing and kicking of feet and tossing of cereal bowl to floor)
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:13:20 GMT -5
SUNDAY! They are airing it Sunday in Seattle.
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:14:07 GMT -5
::yeah...sometimes a picture IS worth a thousand moans, isn't it? ::
No, Patti. Sometimes a picture PROVOKES a thousand moans.
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:15:12 GMT -5
I don't entirely agree with the "Killing Humans is wrong but killing anything else is okay" line of thought. That's speciesist. It follows the line of thought that just because it's human that means it's good. Not true. I could go into a moral arguement that killing vampires and demons is just as bad and why, but I'll save it for another time.
Suffice to say it's never good to kill. But sometimes it's necessary. There's a difference and it goes with the caveat that the killer has to live with the repercussions forever after. Therein lies the difference between killing and murder.
Faith's killing of humans weren't moral judgements. She was acting first by accident and then on orders from Mayor Wilkins. As Wilkins' hitgirl she was a weapon, but a weapon with the free will. She could have chosen NOT to kill. She did not make that choice. Therefore, she what she did was murder.
Giles' killing of Ben is grayer. There were two people living in that body. The not-entirely-innocent Ben and the monster god, Glory. If Ben were allowed to live Glory would have escaped again sooner or later. Once free she would certainly have come after Buffy and Dawn. Giles knew that and did the only thing he could to prevent it. Therefore it could be said that killing Glory was necessary but resulted in the murder of Ben. I'd hate to be on the jury for that one.
As for Caleb? Faster pussycat; kill, kill!
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:15:53 GMT -5
Diane, I don't happen to agree with "Killing humans is wrong under any/all circumstances" either, but that IS the position the series has taken up to now.
My point is that they seem to be contradicting that in presenting Caleb as the threat he is.
I'm not arguing preferences but ethical consistency within the series.
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:16:48 GMT -5
Interesting point Nan- Since Spike and Angel murk up the "if it is a vamp stake it" ehos of the show by establishing the possibility of a redemptive arc for other vamps and Buffy has already declared that she will allow Spike a vampire to kill Wood, a flawed but still human possible nemesis mayhaps Caleb and the Bringers are further elaborations upon the "it depends" evolution of the show's moral code.
I am slightly troubled by this since this season seemed initially to be critiquing Buffy's "I am the Law" stance. I am beginning to feel like Buffy in one of the earlier seasons "Lie to Me."
Looks like the time for pretty-sugar coated stories is past and I am not sure I am ready for that. (Oh and can I join the "I hate Caleb" coalition?)
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:17:27 GMT -5
Define "human".
I ask that because in the case of Caleb, it seems as if with his super-strength, he's not your run-of-the-mill mortal anymore. I bring to light the question of the Slayers -- generally considered to be human, although they are often broken out as being different than humans as well. Not necissarily a different race, mind you, but again, not run-of-the-mill mortals, either. I know in one of the trading card games out there, everyone in the Scooby Gang is listed as "human", including Willow who could just as easily be identified as a witch. But Buffy is listed not as a human, but as a "slayer".
So when the question of whether it's right or wrong to kill a human is raised, then we have to ask ourselves, how do we define "human". And exactly what is our definition of "is".
This stands as a testement to just how desperate I am to discuss all things Buffy; since I'm not really a Spike worshipper, I generally avoid the Spike Admiration Society meetings. But desperate times (no episode board to post to) require desperate measures ....
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Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:18:52 GMT -5
Even though Caleb is the boss of bringers (they are 'his boys') and he has all that superstrength, I think he's as human as Gwendolyn Post was in her powerful glove of Mynhegon, and Buffy killed the heck out of her. (Issue avoided however because Buffy whacked off her arm, leading to her death) And Buffy definitely attempted to kill Faith, also human. (Issue avoided by NOT killing Faith.)
As for the harbingers, we could SAY that they are NOT human, even though we've seen human students turned into Harbingers. However - as they had not yet received their nifty membership robes, let's call them Harbingers in Training, which also gives us a HIT Squad. In either case, Buffy has killed a bunch of Harbingers, in multiple episodes.
I think ME may be saying that some black and white issues of childhood (seasons 1-3) gray out in adulthood. (This is one of the things I'll address in my essay on season one concepts and misconceptions - which I'm going to have to expand to 'In the beginning - Early season concepts and misconceptions' because season one just doesn't get into enough.)
Patti T.
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