|
Post by Dalton on Aug 12, 2003 16:15:26 GMT -5
Spring-
I just read your essay on harsh Light of Day- my immediate reaction-
You rock
Seriously- the episode now demands rewatching in light of your analysis-
I loved the way you dovetailed the themes of inner history and jackhammering with the idea of convergence of individual history comprising the history we all share.
You also made me rethink the way I had interpreted Spike's relationship with Harmony.
I had not sufficiently appreciated the nuances of their interaction- i had seen it much more in terms of his misusing her rather than a mutual and enmeshed emotional exploitation of one another.
I really think you should submit an analysis of Spike and his relationships with women to Slayage- online journal.
Selfishly- because I really want to read your take on a complete overview.
Joshua- I have to re-read your essays- I had a lot of immediate responses but then real life calls.
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Aug 12, 2003 16:16:29 GMT -5
Feeling a little sorry for the Ep board people. We're merrily chatting away and they're...stuck?
Diane U
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Aug 12, 2003 16:17:13 GMT -5
Very briefly:
While I resented yet more knew characters the portrayal of Caleb was so outstanding that I almost forgave the sacrifice of screen time to our core group. A truly gifted actor. I had no idea until reading the postings that he was the Captain from FireFly. I thought that character to be fairly bland but Caleb was electric. Very powerful.
Speaking of power, where did he get it? That's all I kept thinking in the fight scene; what is the source of his superior physical strength? How can he be so much stronger than the Slayers and Spike? If Spring is right and he has the demon power that Buffy rejected from the 3 magic *wise* men she met through the portal then how did he get it? I hope this will be explained.
Was sad to see Dawn's beautiful hair that I associate so closely with her character chopped off in a very ugly, uneven cut.
No Anya/no explanation for her absence.
We didn't get to see Buffy, Giles Scoobies, SITs and Andrew told and no mention was made to confirm it is generally known that Spike's trigger is deactivated. I'll assume they all know but I'd have liked to see their reactions to the news, especially Giles'.
Loved the graveyard scene, especially Spike's [Punch] "Will" [Punch] "You" [Punch] "Stop" [Punch] "Hitting" [Punch] "Me". And his line: "I reformed way before you did."
Loved the basement scene, especially when Buffy came downstairs and Spike visibly leaned away from Faith and looked so very sheepish.
Which leads me to Alexandra's comments in #17; Forgive me Alexandra, but I couldn't help wondering if your grief and compassion for Xander (which I share) hasn't coloured your judgement. I just cannot believe that after all this time during which Buffy's feelings for Xander have been well established as those of deep brotherly love and affection that they would be suddenly transformed at this late date to romantic love...and that you would acvocate such a transformation. I saw no evidence of such a revelation on her part as she listened in on Xander's moving comments in her defense to the SITs. Yes, her face did flood with renewed love and appreciation for him but carnal romantic love? Of that I saw no sign. Of course, I'm biased against such a development and freely admit as much. I's just inconceivable to me that Joss would pull the rug out from Spike's and Buffy's unfulfilled, entirely unresolved and on Buffy's part, unacknowledged love. As EeeeeVil and Ruthless as I believe him to be I can't believe Joss would pull that one. While I am resigned to ultimate heartache and disaster I am counting upon them realizing and acting on their love before the end. Anything less and I will feel monumentally betrayed.
Which isn't to say that I don't think that could happen.
deborah
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Aug 12, 2003 16:17:54 GMT -5
Replying to my own message, a further thought about how they are to fight Caleb.
From the high school scene when the hellmouth/seal is erupting, I think it's established that the Bringers at least start out as human. And it's not established that they then become a particular kind of demon or a demon-infested, like vampires. As far as I can tell, they're certainly evil but still human. And Buffy and Co. have been killing them right and left with no compunction or awkward reflections afterward. So I conclude it's "legal" and moral to kill Bringers.
Caleb is the head of the Bringers, this episode reveals to us. So is it fair to conclude that what's good enough for them, in terms of morality, is good enough for him? Can they take him on and kill him by any/all means necessary (for instance, your basic rocket launcher) or do the "Kill no humans" rules apply here? And if not, why not?
Why are the Bringers, and by extension Caleb, apparently fair game, even though as far as I can tell they're fully human?
Anybody got any ideas?
Nan
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Aug 12, 2003 16:18:25 GMT -5
I'm inclined to the simpler self-defense philosophy, i.e., It's trying to kill me therefore I kill it first. I think Buffy will have no trouble with this philosophy. Or for the mathematically inclined:
Bringers = Kill on sight. Caleb = Bringers, squared Caleb = Kill on sight, cubed
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Aug 12, 2003 16:20:45 GMT -5
Joshua-
Your essays were well worth the wait-
i have been ambivalent about the Nerdy Trio for some time.
I now like Andrew although a little goes a long way. (the actor's line readings are often brilliant which serves to mitigate the annoyance factor)and I was genuiniely saddened when tiny Jonathan was offed, I kinda wanted him to get the chance to hang with the Scoobies.
Your exploration of the underlying motif of the trio shadowing the relationships, character arcs and thematic concerns of the major characters reads well and feels accurate. Bravo!!!
I will respond later to your other essay but I will say that your comment upon the "message" that ones attire conveys to society was so impressive and yet nonjudgemental that I am giving it to a 13 year old of my acquaintance who wants to know why people judge kids who dress "the way they want to." (His words) I think your take on it will be less threatening than his uncle's "you look like a punk!" And yes- he does like Buffy- Faith is his favorite (big surprise huh?) after Buffy.
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Aug 12, 2003 16:21:38 GMT -5
With Hunter's review delayed, some of us who can't stand the wait to discuss last night's eppy have already started, on the ScoopMe board that was created by the editors to appologize for Hunter's delay. Anyone else care to join us?
David Crenshaw
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Aug 12, 2003 16:22:11 GMT -5
Sue you said 'You HATE Caleb, but you believe that such a person could actually exist. '
I think that's why the character is so easy to hate. Such people, totally evil, totally twisted serial killer people DO exist, so they are much more terrifying than vampires or hellgoddesses or big horned demony things because there's nothing in them that couldn't be in any one of us. There but for the grace of God...
But I disagree that he could give JM a run for his money. He had a lot of camera time, and a lot of ranting time, but I wasn't mesmerized by him - I just wanted him killed fast. NF did a good job, and I hate Caleb, but...bored now...
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Aug 12, 2003 16:22:54 GMT -5
Sue, about Molly -me too. She was the one potential I liked. Stands to reason Joss would kill her doesn't it?
Nan, you are so right. 'Mirror Mirror on the wall, Joss is evilest of all!'
Which terrifies me for Spike. I KNOW I read he's supposed to be on Angel next season, but that could be a smokescreen. I've just finished his biography and there's no reason to think Joss will spare us the greatest heartache of all. None.
Evil!Joss: 'Kill Buffy? Shoot, been done twice, no fun in that. Kill Willow or Xander or Anya? Everyone knows they're leaving anyway. Kill Spike? Hmmm - he's the biggest draw, the literal golden-haired boy - the one I promised to let live on. Yeah! I'll do HIM!' (rubs evil hands together in glee)
Patti T.
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Aug 12, 2003 16:23:32 GMT -5
Patti says: "But I disagree that he could give JM a run for his money. He had a lot of camera time, and a lot of ranting time, but I wasn't mesmerized by him - I just wanted him killed fast. NF did a good job, and I hate Caleb, but...bored now..."
Right there with you, scooter. Great job by NF, but since I just saw SchoolHard again, where Spike is introduced, I agree he doesn't rival JM. The portrayal of Caleb was well done, and it was more than "one note", but still, there are not nearly as many notes in that song as there were with Spike, even in that first episode.
I could rewatch that Spike & Faith scene a hundred times, even with the sound turned down. Delicious.
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 15:53:57 GMT -5
Xander could get a mystical eye transplant. One that 'sees' on an even deeper level. The eyball oracle ahs plenty to go around.
I find it really interesting that these classic symbols of 'good' have popped up on both Angel and Buffy. Jasmine, as the (a?) Supreme being is, first off, a wonderful take off on the joke that God is a black woman. Caleb is the perfect evil fanatic--Robert Mitchum with super powers. They're both evil of course, so they have to be connected.
Jasmine has the power to convince everyone (except Fred) that she's going to end all evil. Answer all of our whining about if God exists, why do bad things continue to happen?, by actually, finally taking care of that little outstanding problem.(And Joss may show us how bland he thinks a world like that might actually be.)
Caleb is the manifestation of every perverse thing that's ever been done in the name of God. When it comes to outright evil, he definitely has the moves.
Remeber Robt Mitchum had 'Love' tatooed on one hand and 'Hate' on the other? Joss has turned those Tatooes into two beings. They both still come from the same place, but with different weapons.
Since I'm working on my essay and I need to see what Angel has in store on the subject tonight before I finish it, I'll stop here. But I think it's full tilt boogie from here on in. Joss is a brave, brave man. We may have to save him from being burned at the stake at the Hollywood Bowl.
Rusty Goode
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 15:58:24 GMT -5
Patti says: "Which terrifies me for Spike. I KNOW I read he's supposed to be on Angel next season, but that could be a smokescreen. I've just finished his biography and there's no reason to think Joss will spare us the greatest heartache of all. None."
Gosh Patti - we are on the same wavelength today. I was just thinking the same thing. I am not convinced something horrible won't happen to Spike - anything from being dusted to losing his soul and going evil again. I don't intend to exhale until it's all over.
Something I noticed this Season was that twice, Buffy helps a vampire up, but ends up staking said vampire. The first time was in the first episode, and I find that there is always significant foreshadowing in first eps. Of course, there have been many indications through the years that Spike will be making a major sacrifice. Ugh.
If we do lose him, I hope at least that JM shows up quickly as some other character.
Spring Summers
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 15:59:22 GMT -5
Good Nan, I'm glad you see him now! Wood is a creep. It was totally 'take my toys and go home' of him to fire Buffy. I felt sorry for Buffy when she went down to the basement to be with Spike, no doubt feeling kind of insecure and sad, and found him all 'cigarette after' looking with Faith.
Hurry, Buffy, only FOUR to go!
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:00:19 GMT -5
Anybody know if they will actually ever air Dirty Girls on th West Coast? Last night I turned in to UPN and got a Mariners v. Raiders game.
I cried. I called the UPN Affiliate and bitched. I am so so so sad.
Michelle Belle
|
|
|
Post by Dalton on Aug 14, 2003 16:01:57 GMT -5
Well, I called the UPN affiliate again just now and they said will be airing the show on Sunday night at 8pm for those on the West Coast that missed it.
Michelle Belle
|
|