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Post by Dalton on Sept 18, 2003 23:18:37 GMT -5
I finally found the second part of the report last night after days of looking (I am a muddle-headed wombat sometimes). It was everything everyone else has said. It felt like I was actually there. I can't wait until you do the next convention report next year. Thanks Kerrie! And yes, hopefully at next year's convention James will be able to regale us with tales of his adventures as a regular on Angel - and his upcoming movie, called "Spike, A Kiss After Dying"
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Post by Dalton on Sept 18, 2003 23:19:32 GMT -5
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Post by Dalton on Sept 21, 2003 21:55:13 GMT -5
Only on the S'cubie Website! Nan Dibble's Chapter 7 of Old Blood in the Fanfictional! area. And I have but one thing to say, Nan. Awwwwww *G* Go read it guys. It's good. Like there was any doubt? Vlad, TA, tp
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Post by Dalton on Sept 21, 2003 21:55:32 GMT -5
Nite folks...see y'all later.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 21, 2003 21:56:21 GMT -5
WHAZZUPWIDAT? Overall not bad, and the notion of the Fang Gang having all the tools of W&H at their disposal was tempting! But still, it seemed like AtS this season went out with more of a whimper than a "bang!" *I* was not satisfied. However, some bright spots - "IT's HOLDEN WEBSTER!!", I screamed as Fred met her W&H counterpart! Yes, it IS good of Joss to re-use people like this as he did with the two Big Bads. There IS maybe a fraction of compassion in his heart after all. ;-) THE BEST: CONNOR'S GONE, and so is VK'S SALARY - NOW, ME, PUT JM IN THE PERMANENT ATS CAST, DAMMIT! THE SORTA TOUCHING BUT FELT LAME: The WAY he left. Are we sure memory wiping is now a GOOD THING after S6 BTVS?? Well, it got us rid of Connor, so I guess it has its place. But I MUST reply to Sue P's post #507 from S3 #24 where she says: "They un-Dawned him! Buffy, season 5, open brain, insert memories of Dawn. Angel, end of season 4, open brains, remove memories of Connor. Never, NEVER, in the history of television has a character been written out in this manner. No, plane crash and missing, no amnesia, no death, not even going to an alternate dimension. And...what is done can be undone. Connor can always be written back in. Boy, is this going to save Cordelia a LOT of embarrassment when she wakes up! Is she even going to remember Connor? If no Connor, no pregnancy. Wait a minute--do they all remember Jasmine--where do they think she came from--way too many loose ends here!" I agree totally; my husband said the very same thing about Connor being "un-Dawned" right after it was over - well, after we'd sat in stunned sllence for a few minutes trying to process a lot of loose ends tangled up in our unspoken, gigantic "HUH? WTF was all THAT - That's IT???" Anyway, just thought it was neat that someone else also saw it that way! Man, BTVS had BETTER go out with more of a "BANG!" than AtS did this season, IMHO. Of course, I'm going to be careful what I wish for... after all, it IS a Joss Whedon show, and I'd much rather see what I WANT than what I "need". 21 Re: Thoughts on Season Finale Angel Ep (SPOILERS) 5/8/2003 2:07:57 AM Patti T. Hi Miss Pam! Won't be here long, just exhausted, but saw your post, and wanted to chat on a few things. I thought this was a great episode. In fact, I bawled buckets when Angel was standing outside that window with his son loving someone ELSE as his father. That is true love - Angel got NOTHING out of the deal...and his son got everything he had been denied - love and family and normal life. I'm going to tear up again... Angel did this once before, remember? 'I will Remember You'...when he made the deal with TPTB to remove Buffy's memory of their day together. He carries both of those memories with him now, all alone. OH Poor Angel! I just wanna hug him. (completely altruistically, of course.) (However, this does not mean I want his poor sweet self to mack on SPIKE'S GIRL next week!) I don't know how they are going to handle the Jasmine/Cordy in a coma/all of LA running amuck....possibly it will just all be over by September or October and never be mentioned again...and maybe Cordy will stay in a coma for a season and and just do 'guest coma' shots, and then there will be plenty of money for James... Did you (or anybody) get the significance of the big black panther meeting Gunn in the white room? What was THAT? What did he communicate to Gunn? This inquiring mind wants to know. I thought it looked a lot like Spike..:-) Maybe it was telling him Spike was on the way! LOVED seeing Holden again! Loved Wesley, again. I want a 'Wesley/Spike' show! (not a WEs/Spike SLASH show, just the two of them starring.) BUT I'll take what I can get, and Spike and Angel should be lots of fun together. I also liked seeing the amulet and the Sunnydale references and hearing about the council of watchers being gone. Love the tie-ins. Ok, eyes closing now, I know its not fair not to stay around so you can post back but zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. so tired...
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Post by Dalton on Sept 21, 2003 21:57:31 GMT -5
PT: "Hi Miss Pam! Won't be here long, just exhausted, but saw your post, and wanted to chat on a few things." Hi, Patti! Yes, I'm tired too - unfortunately, I'm still suffering very much from pre-convention stress and, for the first time in forever, can't sleep! I AM a night owl, but usually I'm not such a WIRED one. ;-) However, TOMORROW is J-DAY1 and I too must get some sleep soon!! In a nutshell, having read yours and others' thoughts on this ep, I may have been a TAD too harsh - yes, I did feel terrible for Angel. He may be about the only one who'll miss Connor, but it mattered to him and that's what I should be concerned with - that he's lost someone (AGAIN) who he truly loved; maybe only the second person in his entire existence. But yes - sympathy for Angel doesn't mean I wouldn't still value Spike's happiness above HIS (or anyone else in the Jossverse). ;-) DID love the references to BTVS (about time!) and seeing "Holden 'Why Did They Kill Him and not Kennedy In One Ep' Webster"! And yes, too, somehow the black panther reminded me of Spike, but I sure don't know what the message was. I still don't think the ep was "great", though. With the wiped memories plus Cordy still out in a coma, it all sort of reminded me of the infamous "it was all a dream" shortcut wrap-up on one of the "Dallas" seasons. And finally - if, God forbid, "Angel" is NOT renewed by the WB, then I think Joss will still owe us some explanations and loose end tie-ups, the thing with Gunn and the panther as well as Cordy's fate are just two of them. And that'd also mean NEITHER souled vamp gets to SHANSHU!! Good night - I hope... Miss P.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 21, 2003 21:58:00 GMT -5
Since it's almost 3 in the morning, I'll be shocked if there's someone who hasn't yet seen last night's Angel. I just finished watching my tape of it; had to work, and then there was the tornado (these things are becoming an annual event here in southern Maryland), and by the time I got home, after not sleeping the night before, I was exhausted. So I slept a few hours and then watched my tape with the edge off. In answer to your query, Patti, I do sleep on occasion, just not very well. And OH MY GOD, what an incredible episode of Angel that was. Friends, I dare say that Angel is looking to ensure that anyone feeling even a little hole somewhere from the loss of BtVS won't be looking far. I do like what they're doing to set up next season. First off, let me just say, the episode was completely freaky and bizarre -- and Daddy likes! Angel Investigations taking over the Wolfram & Hart operations. I knew about it, I already read all the spoilers, and still yet, there was something that just, well, the spoilers couldn't convey that was in the context of the final package. Next season is going to be interesting. Very interesting. Some of the things really cool about this episode -- Holden. I'll be frank, I didn't recognize Sigmund Fang at all, but I definitely thought I knew him from somewhere. Thanks to everyone who spotted him and cleared that up for me. Good to know Joss and Co. have actually managed to make it clear that although it's the same actor, it's not the same role. Cool how they do that. Connor and his new family. So what happened, did Angel kill Connor but under an agreement with Wolfram & Hart he was reborn into a new family? Someone asked if Cordelia would remember her tryst with Connor, I'm thinking not since Fred (and apparently the others, only Fred was the one who actually said it) doesn't remember Connor. I thought the limo scene was interesting -- Wesley's line about the humans being the most corruptable, and then it appearing that Lorne and Angel were already out there so he was apparently wrong. Wesley trying to redeem Lilah. She seemed sincerely touched by his interest. I'm not sure if he loved her, but having spent the time with her he did, especially after the post-Beast-destruction of W&H, he seemed to be willing to see her as a fellow human, regardless of who she worked for. And would someone mind explaining to me what happened with Gunn and the panther? I read the spoiler several times about Gunn and a black panther, and every time I read it I was left wondering if what was meant by the black panther was a 70s minority activist. Obviously not. And then there's Jasmine. I do think after this episode they were even more trying to establish that Jasmine really was attempting to establish world peace, possibly to defeat the First Evil. Misguided, to be sure, but she believed her motives pure. And now Team Angel is at Wolfram & Hart, working for the enemy in hopes of doing good. Anyone else see an interesting corallary there? In a way, by doing the wrong thing for all the right reasons, that is, joining Wolfram & Hart, has Angel not become the next Jasmine? After this episode, I was also left buzzing wondering if Spike were to join the cast, where might he fit in. Could he be the new "good guy", challenging Angel and the W&H team? In a way, are we now going to watch from the side of the W&H lawyers, how the corruption slowly overtakes them even though they often think they're doing good? Could Angel and the Fang Gang now be the bad guys? It could make for some interesting storytelling.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 21, 2003 21:58:25 GMT -5
I love the comments I read about the un-Dawn-ing of Connor, and forgot to post something to that effect in my earlier post. Yeah, that is sort of ironic how they did that -- she had false memories created that put her in the Buffyverse, he had false memories created that took him out of the Buffyverse. It will be interesting to see next season if Connor is still a part of things, but I have to give the writers credit -- they brought him in in a very creative way (as they did Dawn), and then when his storyline was over, they took him out in a very creative way. Makes me wonder why they didn't do the same thing with Dawn. I like her, don't get me wrong, but once the whole Key storyline was done, it felt as if the writers had no clue what to do with her. Maybe Connor was a learned lesson from Dawn -- we're out of storyline for this kid, we need to dump him rather than keep him as human scenery. Bravo on the way it ended -- bittersweet, but he's finally happy.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 21, 2003 21:58:46 GMT -5
Was anyone besides me hopping mad for only a moment when they found out that the Biography special was going to be two hours, that is, running the second hour against next week's Angel? Guess it was just habit that I got upset, had to remind myself that by that point, Angel's season will have concluded and it will be a re-run (if it's on at all, haven't looked to be sure). Before someone says if it's that important why not just record the Angel re-run, I have digital cable. Lots of nifty bells and whistles, but the box doesn't interface with my VCR making it possible to watch one channel and record another, or if I'm out, I can only record whatever is playing on only one channel (no taping Angel, and then former Angel alum Elizabeth Rohm on Law & Order if I'm out on Wednesday night, for example).
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Post by Dalton on Sept 21, 2003 21:59:58 GMT -5
Hi David. Don't know if you're still here, but thought I'd chat with your post anyway. I'm not sleeping tonight either. :-) I'm glad you made it safely through the tornado. You said (I'm trying to follow all the new rules about quoting) "And OH MY GOD, what an incredible episode of Angel that was. Friends, I dare say that Angel is looking to ensure that anyone feeling even a little hole somewhere from the loss of BtVS won't be looking far. I do like what they're doing to set up next season." I agree. This was an excellent episode. I am EAGER to see how things go next season - (let there BE one!) and already nervous for the Fang Gang's 'moral center'. What diabolical lessons is Joss going to be trying to teach us now? But how cool to have Angel in that fancy office..I can't even imagine the stories to be told. You said, "Connor and his new family. So what happened, did Angel kill Connor but under an agreement with Wolfram & Hart he was reborn into a new family?" That's what I think. Angel wiped out his existence so he could have another one, and that was his bargain with W&H. Beautiful and so sad! I did NOT expect that. I expected Connor to die. So ok, he did, but not. I wonder if Angel will look in on him from time to time - but now I'm remembering that the new Connor and family were discussing him going away to college, so I guess not. You said " Someone asked if Cordelia would remember her tryst with Connor, I'm thinking not since Fred (and apparently the others, only Fred was the one who actually said it) doesn't remember Connor." So how will Angel now relate to Cordelia, if she lives and gets out of the coma? Will she Not remember Connor but WILL remember she was in love with Angel? And will he remember it all (yes) but not be able to get over what happened between her and Connor and her evil inner hostile takeover? "And would someone mind explaining to me what happened with Gunn and the panther?" I need the explanation too. Maybe it WAS all about black power - maybe the panther was Malcom X or somebody giving Gunn the pride in himself he has been lacking? But that would be so cliche, and kind of insulting to Gunn, wouldn't it? I'm just remembering Fred said he looked 'taller' when he came down. As if he needed that. "And then there's Jasmine. I do think after this episode they were even more trying to establish that Jasmine really was attempting to establish world peace, possibly to defeat the First Evil." Along those lines - WHY would Lilah give Angel the pendant and tell him to go help Buffy in Sunnydale? Why would W&H want the First Evil defeated? Are there a bunch of competing evils and they all want to be FIRST in the evil department? Very confusing to me. Of course, if it really IS just 'all about power' then I can see the competition, but then where's the hero aspect? Can there be a hero if everything is relative? Sigh. "After this episode, I was also left buzzing wondering if Spike were to join the cast, where might he fit in. Could he be the new "good guy", challenging Angel and the W&H team?... Could Angel and the Fang Gang now be the bad guys? It could make for some interesting storytelling. " That would be REALLY different...to have someone 'new' come in and play the hero against the reigning champion as it were? Only Joss would do something like that. But, he does love to play dangerous. Ok, going to TRY to go to bed and sleep now. Talk to you later.
27 Re: Buffy Biography 5/8/2003 4:13:48 AM Patti T. David, I have digital cable too, and the same set up apparently, because I have the same problems taping that you do. It's kind of frustrating to supposedly have all this cool technology and not be able to do a simple tape function, isn't it? I'm glad the Buffy biography is going to be on, it is one more little Buffy event - to extend things one more night at least. G'night, George...
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Post by Dalton on Sept 21, 2003 22:00:47 GMT -5
Since David has obviously retired, let me do the closure honors: Good night, Gracie. Nan
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Post by Dalton on Sept 21, 2003 22:01:22 GMT -5
I was just reading Wanda or Kristin or whoever she is this week's column over on E!. I know a lot of people don't because she's a big spoiler whore. But she did let the cat out of the bag that Fox would be auctioning off a lot of the Buffy set pieces and wardrobe and stuff, just like they did for X-Files. The one piece that Wanda/Kristin specifically listed in her column ... the King Arthur sword that Buffy finds in the basement of the vineyard can be yours (the very one, not a replica) if you're rich enough to outbid everyone else for it.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 21, 2003 22:02:14 GMT -5
I'm around, Nan -- was just cruising a different page. And ... good night, Gracie. :-)~
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Post by Dalton on Sept 21, 2003 22:02:58 GMT -5
Patti, I got the impression that the Black Panther was the woman he'd been with, and that she had somehow "possessed" him. Fred noticed something different about him when he got back. Guess we'll find out. Rhonda
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Post by Dalton on Sept 21, 2003 22:03:31 GMT -5
Well, the late-night posting party has once more commented on all the obvious things about this episode, to wit: the Un-Dawning of Connor (love that phrase!) the WHATTHEF**K of the collective memory wipes, the excitement of the Holdenage (mabe a recurring character?) the WHAZZAT about Gunn's panther and the HOWCUM of W&H secession to Angel & CO. My turn. Starting at the end and working backward: W&H are giving up? Giving in? Getting out? Turning over the front door key AND the mat? So serious pile of crapola that is. W&H are corruptors not a charitable foundation! Before each of the Fang Gang they've dangled the one thing that epitomized that person's hopes, dreams, and passions. I don't know of anyone who could resist temptation on such a massive scale (I couldn't.) Angel&CO must be formidable foes indeed to warrant such an all-out assault on their moral centers. "You ended world peace, so we're giving you a state-of-the-art multimillion dollar corporation???" No way. Price tag--invisible, but much too high! Gunn's Kitty. I saw the panther--georgeous animal!--as some form of spirit guide or totem. I'm not sure what to make of the use of a BLACK panther, as opposed to the spotted variety, but if it was harking back to the 60's, I would consider it dated and borderline offensive. I'm not sure what to make of it. Was it supposed to be a symbol of independence? Power? Self-suffiency? Purity? Or a remorseless killer? Gunn committed a murder earlier this season. Was this supposed to tell us that he's now a predator? And why did Gunn look "taller" when he returned? What did the nice kitty give him? Holden.Didn't recognize him. If he's another character, will wait to see. Joss lost a winner when they dusted that vamp. The Un-Dawning of Connor and the Collective Memory Wipes. This one deserves some serious WHATHEF**KAGE. I can buy that Angel would sacrifice himself for his son's happiness. Even as unlovable a brat as Connor. This this kid was VERY messed up. I can even accept that he made the W&H deal with the proviso that Connor get a happier life. However, this whole bright light (just when we think he's slitting Connor's throat) and then it all never happened? So, does that mean that the whole icky Connor + Cordy = Jasmine never happened? Does that mean that LA goes back to the way it was before--and everybody that died during and after the Rain of Fire are now alive again? What about Jasmine's human tasty treats? Are they back too? And if they're not, what kind of explanation is going to fill the holes? WHATHEHELLSGOINGONHERE? JOSS, you've got some 'splainin' to do!
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