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Post by Dalton on Sept 21, 2003 22:12:39 GMT -5
Whether or not Angel mindwiped Conner and everyone else to assuage his own guilt,I think he was also trying to save Conner. What else could he do - throw him to the criminal justice system? Faith at least was raised in America, in this world, with knowledge of the penalties awaiting murderers and lawbreakers. Also, Angel loved Conner; he always loved him, and the kid was not only self-destructing he was at the point of destroying innocent people on his own initiative. Angel didn't have too many alternatives (send Conner to prison, where Conner would probably end up on death row for killing others, or go crazier, or a mental institution, or kill the boy himself). The sad thing is, Angel has compromised his own integrity, made the deal with the devil, to save his son. I hope that the other members of Team Angel don't sign Perpetuity Contracts, or Angel will have more guilt to deal with. I would have preferred to see them all walk away from W&H. And much better use could have been made of Conner as a character. Gail
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Post by Dalton on Sept 21, 2003 22:13:40 GMT -5
OK, I was just rereading my post and after thinking about what other people are saying about Angel and Willow and messing with people's minds, I can get on board with that. I agree that Angel is getting away with similar behavior that Willow was called out for. However, I think the difference is their intentions (and seriously, call me out if I'm dead wrong!). Willow took away Tara's memory because she didn't want her to remember their argument (I'm correct in saying that, right?) - it wasn't for the benefit of TARA, it was for WILLOW'S benefit. She did it so Tara wouldn't be mad at her anymore. There was never any feeling of self-sacrifice on Willow's part - it was in order to make Willow's life better, not necessarily Tara's. Willow couldn't handle Tara being mad at her and, in trying to improve the situation, ultimately she only made it worse. Her handling of everyone in "Tabula Rasa" was a little different but still similar to her handling of Tara. She wanted to help Buffy forget about her experiences in Heaven but at the same time I think there was an underlying idea of “make Buffy forget that I pulled her out.” Yes, IMO her main motivation was to help Buffy but another motivation, while not as prevalent as the first but still there, was to make herself feel better. If Buffy didn’t remember her time in Heaven, she wouldn’t remember that Willow and the others pulled her out and she wouldn’t have this anger toward the Scooby gang. Now, Angel, on the other hand, was unselfishly motivated in both of his decisions. The first, with Buffy, was done so that she would live. I’m not saying this decision was completely unselfish but I think 98% of it was unselfishly motivated. He took on the burden of keeping this memory, this memory of what was the fulfillment of all his wishes. I’m sure some people will say I’m defending Angel because I’m a B/A ‘shipper but that’s not it. To me, it would have been selfishly motivated if HE also couldn’t hold the memory. Then I can see the argument that he was doing the same thing as Willow. Honestly, I cannot see any good that came out of his decision but maybe I’m just not seeing everything. His decision last night about Connor was the furthest thing from selfish behavior IMO. He sacrificed his only son, the only child he will probably EVER have, for the well-being of Connor. He sacrificed his son so that Connor could have everything he has dreamed of: love and family. Angel could have kept Connor and attempted to show him again and again that Angel loves him but instead, he gave him so that Connor could live a better life. Angel was the embodiment of what a parent is (to me): giving of yourself for the betterment of your child. Doing what is right for the child no matter how much it hurts you. Loving your child enough to let him go and give him a better life. So, to sum up, I agree that Willow’s and Angel’s behavior is similar but I think why Willow is accused of mind-rape and Angel isn’t is due to their intentions. IMO, Willow’s intentions were selfishly motivated while Angel’s weren’t. Again, call me out if I’m wrong (and I have no doubt someone will!) -L :-) Addition to this post I see some have already called me out! :-) I want to add one thing - I DO hope that Angel suffers some sort of consequences from his actions. Just because I think he was unselfishly motivated doesn't mean that he should get off scot-free. He WAS playing God (in a sense) but IMO he was playing God for the betterment of others. Willow played God to help herself. I know people will argue that Angel only did this to help himself but I can't get on board with that. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. :-) -L Edited By Lee Hollins at 5/8/2003 9:42:00 AM.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 21, 2003 22:14:08 GMT -5
I wasn't saying that I didn't understand Angel's motivations (and yes, I very well might do the same for my children), my point was that the writer's of ANGEL have twice used this plot device (wiping memory for "good") and then shrugged it off; WHEREAS the Buffy writer's took the view that Willow's mind meddling was akin to mind-rape. Hypocritical much? They are separate shows, but I'm bugged by the wildly divergent attitudes. Even worse, Willow only fiddled with a few memories of a few people. We have no idea what-all changes Angel's meddling has caused. I rarely complain about the creatively of ME writer's, but it just seemed like a bit of a cop-out (someone, Diane?, mentioned the dream season in Dallas) to solve Connor's problems by re-writing the history of millions. James--thanks for the warning about the spoiler. Gail--Hello and welcome!
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 9:29:29 GMT -5
I thought the use of a black panther to inspire some kind of cryptic revelation/turning point for Gunn was maybe rather racist? Also didn't care for Gunn's chin hair, he's more attractive without it.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 9:30:23 GMT -5
///////Sue writes: Patti I finally got around to reading part II of your convention report and it was WONDERFUL. I could visualize everything. It was funny and heart-warming and took my breath away. //////// I agree whole heartedly!! I was SO looking forward to the convention happening in my city of Toronto in July, and was planning to have JM autograph my Companion Guide to OMWF [which has the sheet music, photos, and commentaries from Joss and others about "the making of" etc] But JM has cancelled his appearance at the convention due to his touring in Europe with GotR. argh!! the ONLY thing that makes me feel better, is to read your blow by blow account, with all your funny comments, which make me feel like I was really there, and what it might have been like if he were at the convention here. so thank you Patti, I really enjoyed your account, and it makes me feel better. -Shannon 8 -)
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 9:31:01 GMT -5
Lee, I agree with you to some extent, but not totally. Connor played the guilt card. NOt just, I'm miserable, but "I'm miserable and it's ALL your fault." And, even though it wasn't all his fault, being a parent, Angel bought into it. Yes, I agree that Angel did it FOR Connor, but I also think he did it partly out of guilt (to assuage that guilt). Also muddying the situation is the question: at what cost? "Fixing" Connor's life has impacted how many other people and to what degree? I don't think we know yet. And at what price to Angel? What did he have to promise W&H? Finally, he didn't fix Connor--he created a brand new person who simply looks like Connor. (Q: does Connor retain his vampire-like strength and other super abilities? What kind of problems will that lead to in a "normal" life?) With the amount of power/majgc it took to do all of that why not just wipe out Connor's memories of Quor-toth and replace them with happy growing up with Angel memories. (Yeah, I know, it didn't serve the plot as well. So, I guess it's not so much Angel I'm unhappy with as the writer's chosing this particular device to "solve" the Connor problem.)
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 9:31:48 GMT -5
Thanx for the welcome. I only recently discovered the SLAYAGE.COM site and then found these boards, just as possibly both the series are ending. The mass memory alteration is repetitive, but makes a certain amount of sense given Connor's problems and Angel's history with Wolfram & Hart. I don't think anything else could have caused Angel to sign on with W&H. And again, what else, now that the writers and Joss had brought the character of Connor to this point, could they have done with the boy? I would not have enjoyed seeing him go nuts every other episode and see Angel tell him how sorry he was. As I said, much better use could have been made of Connor. I really liked most of what Whedon & Co. did with Dawn. I wonder if Connor could have been physically abused in early childhood by Holtz; where the source of all that smoldering anger was...It doesn't excuse his complicity in the young girl's murder or his going postal, but it would help explain it. Gail
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 9:32:26 GMT -5
lins Gail, completely on board with you about the racist thing. That was my first thought when I saw it - "There's a black panther, Gunn is black, I wonder if the writers are trying to say he will be a revolutionary next season?" I hope that my statement in my earlier post did not lead you to believe that I think it was OK to put that racist imagery together with Gunn. Seeing those two images together made me question Tim Minear's intention and perhaps I drew the wrong conclusion. Gunn is (at times) portrayed as the stereotypical black male and my first assumption was that this was another one of these times. I apologize to anyone who I offended with my statement in my earlier post. -L Edited By Lee Hollins at 5/8/2003 10:01:00 AM.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 9:33:07 GMT -5
Watergal-- The actual promo is up at upn.com. Yes, there is a 3 line written blurb re the new ep. In my opinion it doesn't give away much we couldn't have assumed on our own, but just wanted to warn you. If you don't want to go to upn.com here is a description: "Everybody get down!" **big explosion** "Is anybody else alive?" (maybe said by Vi?) -- shot of unconcious Faith.
"Nothing could prepare Buffy for what happens next." **shot of Buffy dropping through hole in floor (holding weapon--the super-sword??). She's still wearing white blouse, tan coat.** **brief shot of a turok-han** cut back to very brief shot of Buffy (except now she is in a denim jacket) cut to brief shot of T-H and Buffy fighting, she's back in tan coat. (so, clearly they have intercut scenes from two different fights here) **Angle leaning against wall, says, "God is miss watching this." Buffy walks up to him, he pulls away from wall, she leans into him.... (Have to say after rewatching him several times it looks less like TFE than I first thought--shot!, and the upn website version makes it look very much like they really will kiss.) Edited By Sue P at 5/8/2003 10:03:00 AM.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 9:33:48 GMT -5
You know, honestly, Sue, I haven't really processed last night's entire show. Who knows what effect it had on Connor? Or anyone else? I think that is something that will (hopefully) be explored next season. I will be pissed if, next season, the writers don't show any of the fallout from this decision! C'mon, you know there's got to be! Maybe once I watch the episode again and sit down and think about it, I'll change my mind. Who knows? Most of the time when I post my thoughts on an episode of Buffy or Angel, it's from my first time watching it and I'm flying by the seat of my pants. Half the time, after re-watching an episode, I change my mind about certain things. BUT, I do see your point. I don't agree with it (right now at least) but I can recognize where you're coming from. You have actually backed up your statements, unlike me. I'm mostly going, "It wasn't selfish. Nyah, nyah. nyah - Angel wasn't selfish." Mature I know. -L :-)
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 9:34:19 GMT -5
Sue said: //deborah- I was so anxious to post about Angel last night that I didn't finish reading pages 23, 24 of part 24. I wanted to say I enjoyed all of your replies to earlier posts and appreciate the time and effort you went to to go back through all the old posts// Thanks Sue. I am so compulsive and addicted to this board that I was determined to catch up all the way. Particularly since the great majority of the posts were about the new episode. But as much as I enjoyed reading everyone's comments I am going to have to try and discipline myself not to be so anal about this. The coming long weekend will be enforced practice for me. Sat & Sun - I'll be you know where. I've scheduled Monday off to take some personal recovery time. Back to work on Tues to a mountain of paper that will allow me no catch time. And believe me when I tell you that there's no danger of me staying late in some misguided heroic effort to catch up on what will then be 4 + days of posts (Fri evening/night, Sat, Sun, Mon and all day Tues) and space out what's on TV that night as I did for the last two weeks in a row with Angel. My plan is to try to start fresh from the post next episode posts and keep up as best I can. And it just occurred to me that I can't be having with staying late on Wed trying to catch up with the new episode posts that I'll have been to busy to read during the day because the A&E Biography will be on that night....Maybe I could just set the VCR....Rambling here. What if there was a power outage during the day? (I don't know how some of you have the guts and the faith to rely on programming your VCRs to tape Buffy in your absences. I'd be a nervous wreck. Well, shouldn't even be here. Gotta get back to work. TTFN. deborah
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 9:34:41 GMT -5
Yes, I would love to hear about the promo. But whatever shall you do if you should be forced to rewatch Spike and Buffy? Oh the torture! *G* Edited to add: Oh, you've already writen it. Great description. Now you have Me wondering whether Angel is really there or not. I guess my opinion on that will depend on how the season finale of Angel ended. I can't wait to see it! Thanks, Watergal Edited By Watergal =^..^= at 5/8/2003 10:54:00 AM.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 9:35:18 GMT -5
Many people have found as offensive or sterotypical the use of the Black Panther in relation to Gunn. However, after having writen his senior thesis on the Black Panther Party, and having some limited knowledge of African-American History (my college major), I thought I'd share some thoughts (not preaching). First off, while it is little known, the Black Panthers were originally a group organized in Mississippi during the early 60's in an attempt to get Black people to register to vote. They were fairly successful until state laws were passed forbidding private citizens from registering others to vote. However, their campaign, while frustrated, continued to encourage Black Mississippians to vote. The image was selected because the Black Cats (there is technically no Black Panther species, they tend to just be Black coated leopards or, more commonly, jaguars) were thought to represent empowerment. The Black Panther Party founded by Huey Newton adopted this image, and while many in American culture just view the group as militant, angry Black men, the BPP did much in the way of community empowerment (including sickle cell anemia awarness and testing programs, free breakfast programs for poor children before the school systems adopted this, and political news on candidates). Again, the theme was one of mental empowerment, not physical force. Flash forward to now, and why the animal was chosen for Gunn. To date, the writers and characters on AtS have seen Gunn as little more than muscle, no brain. However, beginning a few episodes ago, they began to develop Gunn, and show him as a thinking individual. In last night's episode, he was ready to be pushed into the security job before the woman at W&H told him they had grander plans for him. What happened in the White Room, I'm sure we wont know until next year, but I imagine the writers set this up as a mental empowerment for Gunn, and hopefully a sign that his character will develop. Just my little (actually, rather long) diatribe about Black history, Gunn, AtS, and well, other thoughts. Hope this is read.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 9:35:51 GMT -5
Thanks, James, I knew a little bit about the Black Panthers but this really helped fill in the gaps. I didn't see the panther last night as a stereotype in the first place but this confirms my reaction.
Becky Henderson
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Post by Dalton on Sept 23, 2003 9:36:12 GMT -5
does anyone know where i can find a transcript of touched? I cant find it anywhere and I missed the first half of the ep. Please?!?!?!?
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