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Post by Dalton on Jul 2, 2003 14:19:29 GMT -5
Harmony? Oooooh yuck. I must admit that Harmony's ditzy ways are very off-puting for me. I couldn't stand her, which is not to say that she didn't love Spike. I do believe that she did. However, I think she was truly a stopgap for Spike. His slayer infatuation was materialising (if not already entrenched.) Spike is not (was not?) the type to be comfortable alone. He was the type of guy who NEEDED to be in some type of relationship. He was with Dru for how long?
Further, and in another vein, Spike is more intellegent than your average vampire. And to put it quite bluntly, Harmony was at the other end of the scale. She may have been smarter than she let on (that is a big maybe,) but she was in no way Spike's intellectual equal. In fact, her dense responses to him, led him to fits of violence in an attempt to shut her up. (Stake through the heart anyone?) I feel that Spike may well be the most intelligent of the Scoobies. Notwithstanding Willow's technical knowledge and Giles's bookish knowledge, Spike/William's insight and natural intuitiveness leaves them in his dust. Spike may like to snark, but I think he needs to be surrounded by people with a modicum of good sense and intelligence. I feel that Buffy's schoolgirl lack of ability to remember the name of any of the demon adversaries belies her natural understanding of things demon-related. Xander also "sees things" and understands what is going on around him better than his companions. In this manner, he is not unlike Spike. Maybe that explains all the snarking and fighting between them, they are too alike in this respect.(My Mom and I are prime examples of this phenomenon.)
This is much longer than I intended, so I'll just sign off with the conclusion that Harmony's resemblance (blond and slight build) was what really attracted Spike.
Watergal
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Post by Dalton on Jul 2, 2003 14:20:53 GMT -5
I'm going to warn you right now that my grammar here may be a little suspect, but I can't think of a better way to express this. Harm was to Spike what Buffy was to Parker and Xander was to Faith. Sex. A warm body is better than nothing at all. I exclude the sex between Buffy and Spike because there was more going on there, at least from Spike's perspective. Buffy used Spike, of course, but at least it was out of need for something other than getting her rocks off. You can't say that about the previous 3 examples. In the long run, Spike would never associate himself with anyone stupid, and there's no more accurate word for Harm.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 2, 2003 14:21:29 GMT -5
I've taken off that hat for good. I'm the janitor. Janitors don't know from prepositions.
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jul 2, 2003 14:22:38 GMT -5
Thank you Robert! You have managed to say in two sentences (Or whatever many, I didn't count) what my previous post was attempting to. (dangling participle be damned! ) So let me say, " Hear, hear." (or is that here, here? and no that isn't a rhetorical question, I would like to know. please e-mail me at waterscubie@yahoo.ca with a response if you care to.) In any event, I just logged on to wish everyone a happy Chinese New Year as I head out with my Chinese roommate for some particularly yummy Chinese food as is our tradition on this day of the year (Chinese year that is). And welcome to the year of the Ram. Watergal Edited By Watergal =^..^= at 2/1/2003 6:00:00 PM.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 2, 2003 14:23:51 GMT -5
I don't post this as a response to anyone here, but I occasionally lurk on other boards (though I spend more and more time here due to the quality of the discussion), and I get irritated when any main Scooby is classified as a weak link. I ran across a post recently that classified Willow, Giles and Spike as the brains of the group, with the rest catching up later because they're stupid. I find it fascinating when people make these blanket statements about characters. This person claimed to have watched the show from the beginning, but I have to question that. Ok, if we're going to classify on schoolwork and book-learning alone then those three definitely qualify (I've always assumed that William was an excellent student). What about common sense? It's hard to define that sort of thing, but that's where Xander outdistances the others. He has a priceless gift to see into the heart of things and figure out how to fix it. He recognized Willow was in trouble early on last year, for example, but the Scoobs had pulled away from each other again and he was ignored. In Buffy's case she's actually a pretty good strategist when she's forced into it...frankly Willow, Giles and Spike are not. They can indentify the problem, but stopping it is another matter. This post is getting too long, and I'm sorry, but a perfect example is the defeat of the Mayor. Willow and Giles figured out the date of the Ascension, but his destruction was all Buffy and Xander. She came up with the plan and Xander implemented it. Xander got the explosives, he set them up with help from Giles, and he led the troops in the climactic battle scene with the vamps while Buffy roped the Mayor in. Those aren't the actions of stupid people.
Rob Sorenson
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Post by Dalton on Jul 2, 2003 14:24:34 GMT -5
water gal, Robert -
Yes, of course you are right that Harmony was a warm body to Spike; he wasn't in love with her, and he didn't like her or respect her, and he abused her.
It was sort of like Parker/Buffy and Faith/Xander, but more complex, because it wasn't just a one-night stand.
I don't think Harmony was JUST a warm body to Spike. She also provided some relief from loneliness - he genuinely seemed to find her amusing sometimes. And even with Harmony, he played the "I'll be what she wants me to be" game. Before she got wise (well, "wise" this isn't quite the right word for Harmony, but it'll have to do), she often egged on the abuse. He would yell at her and that would make her smile - she got into it. And whenever she seemed to want it, he complied.
He made other efforts to please her like playing 20 questions and lying to her that he was thinking of her when he was having sex with her, but thinking of Buffy to come to climax. He even lets her comfort him in this scene.
Also, Harmony, for all her ditziness, understood Spike better and faster than Buffy ever did. She had his number - she knew he was obsessed with The Slayer and it was bad news for him. She knew he was ultra-sensitive and insecure and needy. She knew he needed someone to love him, and she clumsily tried. But of course, she was a terribly annoying ditz, so that got in the way.
She was in a no win situation - not just because she plain wasn't right for Spike (which she wasn't), but because the fact that she loved him was one of the main reasons Spike had no respect for her.
Edited By Spring Summers at 2/1/2003 6:50:00 PM.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 2, 2003 14:25:29 GMT -5
Spring-
Again you have hit the nail on the head.
" She knew he was ultra-sensitive and insecure and needy. She knew he needed someone to love him, and she clumsily tried. But of course, she was a terribly annoying ditz, so that got in the way."
I have always had a sneaking fondness for Harmony. (Remember she made no attempt to bite Xander? They both resorted to hairpulling!!) Even Cordelia had some compunction about actually killing harm. She arouses a kind of irriated affection in most of the characters except Buffy.
She also shows the area of grey in the Buffyverse. The whold idea of what constitutes absolute evil is made complicated by the demons who retain enough human characteristics to tie them to obligations/needs and character tics. (Remember the Mayor whose Ascension was impeded by his fondness for Faith?)
I think part of what may have drawn Spike to Harmony was her very "humanity" in addition to her tiny blondness and inability to demand a serious committment from him. He was reduced to hanging around Sunnydale waiting for some crumbs of atention from Buffy and he needed female companionship that did not deflect him from his obsession. I think he depended upon her sensitivity as much as he did upon her obtuseness.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 2, 2003 14:26:19 GMT -5
Water Gal said, "I feel that Spike may well be the most intelligent of the Scoobies. Notwithstanding Willow's technical knowledge and Giles's bookish knowledge, Spike/William's insight and natural intuitiveness leaves them in his dust. Spike may like to snark, but I think he needs to be surrounded by people with a modicum of good sense and intelligence. Spike has something none of the others has, including Giles. He's of the world. He had lived over a hundred years, and nearly all of those years he has experienced events, people, and emotions, and personally done things none of the Scoobies will never know or experience for themselves. I find it interesting that Drusilla, who had the sight and knew people in ways beyond anyone else, chose William. He was not very prepossessing, was he? Yet there was something special Drusilla saw in him. And she was so right. She says in "Fool for Love": "DRUSILLA Oh, I see you. A man surrounded by fools who cannot see his strength, his vision, his glory. (beat) That and burning baby fish swimming all around your head. Spike backs away from her, nervous. SPIKE That's quite close enough. I've heard tales of London pickpockets. You'll not be getting my purse, I tell you. DRUSILLA (smiles) Don't need a purse. She points to his heart and head in succession. DRUSILLA Your wealth lies here... and here. In the spirit and... imagination. You walk in worlds the others can't begin to imagine. Spike is riveted by her insight into his character. (excerpt from P.S. Please someone tell me what the burning baby fish mean. I've heard interpretations of foreshadowing for the chip. Any other ideas? Alexandra K.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 2, 2003 14:28:02 GMT -5
Awwwwww, Lee...
If you could only see my face now!
*blushing*
You are sweet.
To Gia,(and really to all)
The original post that caused all this hullabaloo was in another thread, on a different topic. Let's let this end. It's hurting our discussions. I think everyone knows where everyone stands now. I truly wish for you, Gia, not to leave us and stay on the Episode board entirely. (To be honest, I am just cocky enough to believe that you won't..we are too much fun here, overall, to ignore. So, you'll be watching and reading, but you won't post anything. I find that saddening.) You have entertaining posts. Your insights are unique as are everyone's here and they deserve to be shared. Don't take them away from us.
So a plainitive cry from all of us guys stuck here in the middle. Please, let this end. We want to hear from you all.
Vlad
(This is my final comment on the matter.)
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Post by Dalton on Jul 2, 2003 14:28:53 GMT -5
Spike and Harmony: I am glad Spring chose to bring up this topic, because Harmony (post vampification) has always been one of my favorite characters.
Lots of interesting things have been said about these two already and I am rather glad I got to weigh in later in the discussion rather than earlier, as it let me consider the pair in more definite ways.
First off, I believe it was more than just "sex" to Spike. Spike was fond of Harm. He put up with alot of annoying habits, things that really grate about her because of his fondness for something he saw in her.
Much has been mentioned about how the core personality of a person remains after getting sired. Harmony really showed this. And she showed it in a new way, actually. I have seen people conjecture on these boards how there are two types of vamps (not the 3 "species" argument): the master vamps (like Angel, Spike, Darla, Dru, Mr. Trick, the Master, etc.) and the henchvamps (all the bumbling, kung fu-ing, freshly risen from their grave, Star Trek red shirt, meant-to-die vamps).
Now, before Harm, all the master vamps we have seen, the ones who exhibit humanistic qualities, are fairly intelligent. They are cunning, manipulative and resourceful. Then along comes Harm. Harm is still Harm. Her idea of fun is still to go shopping for a new pair of shoes. (Tho' now she eats the shoe salesman.) Her intelligence didn't change one iota. She was an 18-19 year old young woman, who happened to be a vampire.
She retained her "essence", if not her soul. Actually, other than her new dietary desires, Harm isn't all that different from the Harm that was in Cordy's court. She is basically what any shallow, not too brilliant person would be if they desired blood and had new-found strength and less inhibitions.
Now ,as far as what Spike saw in her... Well, we already know that Spike has a fondness for the ladies. She is attractive and Harm is nothing if she is not a shining example of every feminine cliche'. Spike KNOWS this woman; knows what makes her tick. To be honest, if you took away Drucilla's maddness, dumbed her up a bit and bleached her hair, you would have Harmony. Think about it for a moment.
Harmony was still a woman to Spike. Not perfect, but at least she still lived in the world. She wasn't wholly consumed with ruling the world of the night; feeding wasn't her end all, be all. I think it's pretty clear to everyone that Spike "lives," unlike many of his vampire brethern. Spike has enjoyed his 100+ years of living. It's only natural for living things to want to be near other living things.
So Spike found comfort in Harm..she pleased him sexually, she attempted to please him in other ways, and I never got the impression that Harm was really so stupid... it was more like she was just completely wrapped up in herself and her narrow world. And she truly seemed to want Spike to care for her. She wanted his affection.
She rather reminded me of a highchool cheerleader that goes to college looking for a smart, potentially rich husband. She in the end wants to settle down, raise a few vamps...errr kids.. of her own and have some status in the community. Spike, let's face it, in the vampire circles, is something of at least a minor celeb. He has status; he has power. Hey, he killed two slayers after all and was working on his third. I am sure that she found a lot of hte things about Spike lovable that others have; his looks, his charm when he wanted to use it, his prowness in bed.
If you notice, by the end, when Harm tosses Spike out and when she finally heads off to LA, she has grown herself. She sees Spike doesn't love her, she sees a need to go off and really become something on her own. In some ways, she is an example of the modern liberated woman at this point. She's been there, done that, and doesn't need a man anymore to provide the things she wants. She's quite capable herself, thank you!
I've always liked Harmony. And in some funny way, I kinda hope the gal makes it. She's really not so bad for an evil blood sucking creature...kind of a Mary Tyler Moore with fangs.
*Starts humming: She's gonna make it after aaaalll*
Vlad, TA, tp
Edited By Vlad I at 2/2/2003 6:34:00 AM.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 2, 2003 14:29:50 GMT -5
: ...a perfect example is the defeat of the Mayor. Willow and Giles figured out the date of the Ascension, but his destruction was all Buffy and Xander. She came up with the plan and Xander implemented it. Xander got the explosives, he set them up with help from Giles, and he led the troops in the climactic battle scene with the vamps while Buffy roped the Mayor in. Those aren't the actions of stupid people. :
You're right, Robert. You've hit on the secret to Buffy's success as a Slayer. These are the actions of a TEAM!
Diane U
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Post by Dalton on Jul 2, 2003 14:30:29 GMT -5
: Even Cordelia had some compunction about actually killing harm. :
Compunction about killing Harmony? Cordelia invited Harmony over for an evening of pedicures! (ANGEL: First Season)
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Post by Dalton on Jul 2, 2003 14:31:34 GMT -5
Burning baby fishes – you know Alexandra, I’ve wondered about that reference as well. The chip? As in Fish & Chips? :-). No, I assume the “chip” theory has to do with the fact that Dru says the fishes are “all around his head”, and makes some sort of similar statement about “electricity in his head” when she returns in “Crush”. I guess the image could refer to the chip, but I don’t really find that theory very satisfactory. I mean, without the reference to “in your head”, it doesn’t stand up at all.
You know what that image – burning baby fishes – makes me think of? Sperm. It really, really makes me think of sperm. Maybe it refers to his potential progeny, the future that Dru is taking away from him? There’s an episode where Angel mentions to Faith how some of the feeling of power in killing comes from taking away “all that potential” from the victim. Or maybe that is kinda far out, and I am just revealing (for the 1000th time) where my mind goes when James is on the screen.
The other thing “fishes” makes me think of is Christianity - the fish symbol, and the “loaves and fishes” story. It could just be another “Jesus” reference for Spike, like the crucifixion poses. Though that just doesn’t seem quite right either.
Or maybe it's just random dialogue designed to drive us as nutty as Dru.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jul 2, 2003 14:32:37 GMT -5
(This is an historic post.)
Check out Fanfictional! on the S3 webpage (http://www.geocities.com/scubiefan/) 'cause our dear own Robert S. has posted his first piece of fanfic for the S'cubies there.
I hate saying I told you so (Actually, no I don't *shrugs*) but he is a talented writer. Yep, yep. Knew it all along. Won't you people ever listen to me?
*L* Seriously, go take a peek. I like how Rob has pulled in themes and questions that we have all been pndering should certain folk actually meet up. We want more Rob, you hear?!?
Vlad, TA, tp
Edited By Vlad I at 2/2/2003 9:27:00 AM.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 2, 2003 14:33:11 GMT -5
Vlad, a felicitous typo:
"his prowness in bed."
PROW: the leading, forward-thrusting (etc.) part of a ship.
Goes well with SPIKE.
Worth a small smile?
Nan
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