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Post by Lola m on Oct 29, 2004 7:50:07 GMT -5
Oh, don't worry - I haven't forgotten the pilot. Or the other dead folks. Or the complete creepiness of the "it's killed them all" message. **nods very vigorously** Because something got that pilot very very dead! And I don't think the polar bear would have been Mister Nice Guy either! Lola
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Post by Sue on Oct 29, 2004 7:51:22 GMT -5
Coming back later to discuss the last page or two of wonderfully perceptive insights. Julia posted this on the main thread and I thought it deserved posting here as well:
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 29, 2004 8:17:12 GMT -5
Woah! Most excellent thoughts Linda. We have a repeating theme of trust here. And it seems like the island turning points tend to be about . . . almost . . . correcting the flashback turning points? Taking the "lesson" that was learned there (trust is a bad idea; let others stop you from trying; stay in a bad situation that will stay bad) and turning it around? Like Matthew said, great party favors! ;D And, yes. Did we really need confirmation that Spring it eeeeevuuuuullllll? No, I don't think we did. And she just can't help sucking more people into her evil web. **nods solemnly** Lola Hey, hey, hey! I just calls 'em like I sees 'em! And I gotta make a call - some great discussion here. I think we're going to find that the island itself has a dual nature - i.e., the potential to be horribly evil or wonderfully good. For reasons I'm not sure of, I see Locke as representing the island's character, and I think we are going to find that he can be both very generous, AND very ruthless, as needed.
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Post by Nickim on Oct 29, 2004 9:16:52 GMT -5
OMG! We used to do the "name that ep" game too! They re-ran Gilligan so many times in my childhood that large chunks of it are still permanently imbedded in my head. "Hamlet, dear, your **something** is clear, avenging thy father's **something**, you seek to harm your Uncle and Mom, but you're scaring me to death". The "neither a borrower nor a lender be" song. The Honeybees! "You nee-eed me." Lola I so wanna see Sayid make a radio out of a coconut shell. Oh! And they should make one of those pedal cars out of bamboo and woven mats! And then radioactive vegetable seeds can wash up on the beach and they plant them . . . . I have perhaps, spent too much time thinking about this. Really not just a funny idea. They already have tires from the plane, and it would make it much easier to transport water to the people on the beach. At least make some kind of wagon.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 29, 2004 12:00:02 GMT -5
I was thinking about what we've seen so far. Characters flashed back so far 1) Flashback decision turning point; 2) Island decision turning point; 3) What we don't yet know; 4) Catch phrase (just because) Kate 1) trusting Ray to drive her to the train station; 2) trusting Jack to tell him about why she's a fugitive; 3) why she's a fugitive; 4) Trust Me. Locke 1) flying to Australia to go on the Walkabout; 2) getting up again after missing the boar the first time (the scene exactly echoed the beach scene with the toe shot, except shoed); 3) how he became paraplegic in the first place; 4) Don't tell me what I can't do! Jack 1) chasing after his father; 2) listening to Locke and seriously chasing after his father's spectre; 3) what he did to send his father off the deep end; 4) You don't have it in you. Sun 1) staying with Jin; 2) revealing her secret to Michael; 3) why she is so certain that Jin couldn't break away from her father (there was a whole lotta not-talking in her flashbacks); 4) Something in Korean (OK joking) 11:15? Sort of weird, but not necessarily significant pattern: IMO, Kate's & Sun's island turning points have to do with trusting another human being. Locke's and Jack's have to do with trusting the weirdness of the island. Huh. Linda, of course, your mileage may vary... <Edited to add the catchphrases. > Good analysis, Linda. Anne, let the weirdness in...
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Post by Becky H on Oct 29, 2004 12:01:51 GMT -5
Put me in the camp that has reservations about Locke. He comes across as wise and knowledgeable, but the strength of his beliefs are not always founded on Truth, or he wouldn't have had that relationship with Helen, the phone-sex(?) person in his previous life. I have reservations, too, but I'm thinking more in terms of hubris. I think he's riding a high from his miraculous recovery and might not be the Yoda he thinks himself to be. Fun to find out!
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 29, 2004 12:04:11 GMT -5
Hey, hey, hey! I just calls 'em like I sees 'em! And I gotta make a call - some great discussion here. I think we're going to find that the island itself has a dual nature - i.e., the potential to be horribly evil or wonderfully good. For reasons I'm not sure of, I see Locke as representing the island's character, and I think we are going to find that he can be both very generous, AND very ruthless, as needed. Eetah on Locke's dual nature - we've been given that a couple of times; the scarred and unscarred sides of his face, the "light and darkness" backgammon speech, for example. Whoever brought up the island where dreams come true, in Voyage of the Dawn Treader, I think you were spot on. The dreams that came true, after all, were not just the good ones.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 29, 2004 12:04:53 GMT -5
I have reservations, too, but I'm thinking more in terms of hubris. I think he's riding a high from his miraculous recovery and might not be the Yoda he thinks himself to be. Fun to find out! That's good too - I hadn't even thought that out. This is going to be such fun!
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 29, 2004 17:13:07 GMT -5
I was thinking about what we've seen so far. Characters flashed back so far 1) Flashback decision turning point; 2) Island decision turning point; 3) What we don't yet know; 4) Catch phrase (just because) Kate 1) trusting Ray to drive her to the train station; 2) trusting Jack to tell him about why she's a fugitive; 3) why she's a fugitive; 4) Trust Me. Locke 1) flying to Australia to go on the Walkabout; 2) getting up again after missing the boar the first time (the scene exactly echoed the beach scene with the toe shot, except shoed); 3) how he became paraplegic in the first place; 4) Don't tell me what I can't do! Jack 1) chasing after his father; 2) listening to Locke and seriously chasing after his father's spectre; 3) what he did to send his father off the deep end; 4) You don't have it in you. Sun 1) staying with Jin; 2) revealing her secret to Michael; 3) why she is so certain that Jin couldn't break away from her father (there was a whole lotta not-talking in her flashbacks); 4) Something in Korean (OK joking) 11:15? Sort of weird, but not necessarily significant pattern: IMO, Kate's & Sun's island turning points have to do with trusting another human being. Locke's and Jack's have to do with trusting the weirdness of the island. Huh. Linda, of course, your mileage may vary... <Edited to add the catchphrases. > This is great Linda! I love lists! *grin*
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Post by Nickim on Oct 29, 2004 17:54:22 GMT -5
Great review, Vlad.
ITA on not missing Boone or Shannon. And, the rotating watch on the beach.
I think both Jack & Kate missed an oppotunity, but they'll still be together a lot. If the island wants them to get togther, they will. Don't know if I agree with you on the Sawyer romp, though. Although, he gets prettier every time I see him--love that stubble and the devilish grin.
I like the fact that Sun decided to try to save her marriage. My best friend went through a lot of unhappy years, but she said wasn't leaving, that if her husband wanted to go, he could. They worked it out and now they're disgustingly happy. (actually, I'm thrilled for her, she's one of the nicest people I've ever met) PDA's and a "date" every week. So saving a marriage is possible. I'd like to Jin & Sun start to work together as a team within the bigger "cave team."
It just hit me that the bees were a metaphor for the drugs and what Charley's gonna go through when that withdrawl starts. Am I slow or what? Did Locke conjure them up to keep Charley from running into the jungle for a hit?
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 29, 2004 18:06:11 GMT -5
You wrote an excellent review again Vlad! Lots of things that struck me as I read it.
First (not in order) - the 'easter egg' of the week. I did NOT catch the clues that the watch was significant - and its just fun that they are there - I am going to try to start looking 'harder' for these Jossian touches. (or Furious touches maybe?) I agree, the story telling is wonderful in this show. Thanks for being the eagle eye! It's something I really enjoy about your reviews.
The House of the Rising Sun....SO nice! Even with the episode title, I thought it was just a play on words, but seeing the lyrics and your exposition of the significance of them to the story of Sun and Jin really added a lot of meaning to the story this week. You and the writers are on the same wavelength still.
Even with all our 10 pages of discussion, I don't remember anyone commenting on how apt the song was to the story, (if someone did and I missed it, bad on me) so nice job Vlad.
"Jack, for his part, is as bad as Jin, making assumptions about what has to be done without listening to others’ input. "
I agree - Jack's plan was sound in my opinion - I'd have followed him to the cave (which says a lot for the plan since Sayid and Sawyer are back at the beach) but if he'd been more diplomatic he could have gotten a lot more people to go I think. Plus he would have gotten Sayid's support and help maybe - and it's troubling to see the two strongest leaders not working together now. I hope that won't last long.
"Now that they are upon the island, it is interesting to note they follow Jack to the caves, part of the party that has “given up hope” of rescue and instead are going to attempt to make their way at a new life, dealing with the realities of what has happened to them."
yes...very good point....and it's in not clinging to their hopes from the past that is their best hope for the future.
"Evidently the writers are not reading my review. " LOL!!! I'm sure this ep was already in the can Vlad....and they'll phase out that cd player....cause if Hurley can make batteries last by wishing, they need to get him working on that transciever!
I am really enjoying Charley too - he's a great actor - they are all good. Had the same 'wince' at Sayid's reactions to situations...I really don't want to see this become a battle between 2 groups...and I know tension is necessary for the story. But we already have tension - we have LOCKE, who just gets more disturbing to me, even while I find myself starting to 'rely' on him.
"It’s obvious she will wind up with Jack, but you might get a romp out of the deal first." Vlad, you're so ...that's just WRONG. *grin*
I just ...thought of something.
Everyone who went with Jack, except for Hurley - we've seen their flashbacks. We saw Charlie's drug addiction, Jack, Locke...Sun and Jin.
The people who stayed on the beach - we've seen none of their past yet, except Kate, and we only know she was a prisoner. We don't know for what crime, or if she was guilty or innocent.
Probably not significant, since we have the exception in both camps. Oh well. That's why I'm not doing these reviews and you are!
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Post by William the Bloody on Oct 29, 2004 18:09:21 GMT -5
<snip> It just hit me that the bees were a metaphor for the drugs and what Charley's gonna go through when that withdrawl starts. Am I slow or what? Did Locke conjure them up to keep Charley from running into the jungle for a hit? huh! I didn't catch that at all! Interesting, they were all standing right htere, but only Charley got stung. You could definitely be otno something. Tho', about Locke, I don't read him as knowing or being able to do anything more than the rest. (Staring down the "creature" not withstanding) I think he is jsut a little more tuned in on the island, perhaps. Vlad
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Post by William the Bloody on Oct 29, 2004 18:17:30 GMT -5
First off, thanks, Patti for hte words of praise and encouragement. You know how I struggle to write these and having them appreciated at all is the payoff. <snip> I just ...thought of something. Everyone who went with Jack, except for Hurley - we've seen their flashbacks. We saw Charlie's drug addiction, Jack, Locke...Sun and Jin. The people who stayed on the beach - we've seen none of their past yet, except Kate, and we only know she was a prisoner. We don't know for what crime, or if she was guilty or innocent. Probably not significant, since we have the exception in both camps. Oh well. That's why I'm not doing these reviews and you are! Yet another thing I didn;t realize. I kept trying to find a common denominator for each of the two groups and there it was...so simple..staring right at me. I think that it's massively significant that the folks that went with Jack, the named ones anyway, are the folks we have already seen in flashback. Some one pointed out the duality of the two locations, how the beach is light and the caves are dark. Perhaps this is to represent the fact that Jack's people are moving on, accepting their inner darkness as a part of their whole. The only person that had a flashback that didn't tag along to the caves was Kate, and from her actions and words, I don't think she has accepted her own past yet. But she's on the verge. Of course this could all just be a cooincidence. But I think it bears watching. Vlad
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Post by Matthew on Oct 29, 2004 18:18:28 GMT -5
Maybe daddy handed it down to Jin? He's supposed to protect it? So it's like a symbol of he's supposed to protect Sun? Or something? It would help if my brain were attached today! ;D Lola That was what I was thinking: something of great value he received from Sun's father... losing the one becomes indistinguishable from losing the other in his mind? Oooh! yes! as he tries to keep his little world intact from their past.. the slightest chink in the armor could destroy the whole thing, in his mind. Losing that watch might have represented EVERYTHING to him, that same way... it all falls apart.... leaves their world.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 29, 2004 18:26:38 GMT -5
First off, thanks, Patti for hte words of praise and encouragement. You know how I struggle to write these and having them appreciated at all is the payoff. Yet another thing I didn;t realize. I kept trying to find a common denominator for each of the two groups and there it was...so simple..staring right at me. I think that it's massively significant that the folks that went with Jack, the named ones anyway, are the folks we have already seen in flashback. Some one pointed out the duality of the two locations, how the beach is light and the caves are dark. Perhaps this is to represent the fact that Jack's people are moving on, accepting their inner darkness as a part of their whole. The only person that had a flashback that didn't tag along to the caves was Kate, and from her actions and words, I don't think she has accepted her own past yet. But she's on the verge. Of course this could all just be a cooincidence. But I think it bears watching. Vlad *clapping hands* oh cool! I'm glad you think it might be significant. So what would be your explanation for Hurley being in the cave then? My thought was that maybe Hurley is what he seems on the surface - accepting, no dark secrets...so no reveal coming...maybe he is just 'dude, whoa...' guy.
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