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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 29, 2004 18:29:01 GMT -5
That was what I was thinking: something of great value he received from Sun's father... losing the one becomes indistinguishable from losing the other in his mind? Oooh! yes! as he tries to keep his little world intact from their past.. the slightest chink in the armor could destroy the whole thing, in his mind. Losing that watch might have represented EVERYTHING to him, that same way... it all falls apart.... leaves their world. Vlad mentioned he got the watch from Sun's father - so then I thought maybe it represented to him everything he had done - all he'd worked for.... or is that exactly what you just said?
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Post by William the Bloody on Oct 29, 2004 18:29:51 GMT -5
*clapping hands* oh cool! I'm glad you think it might be significant. So what would be your explanation for Hurley being in the cave then? My thought was that maybe Hurley is what he seems on the surface - accepting, no dark secrets...so no reveal coming...maybe he is just 'dude, whoa...' guy. Perhaps. I really feel like he is sorta the face for the nameless ones, myself. Joe average. And I also think that he is going to follow Jack wherever Jack goes as a leader. Thus far he has, including doing things he normally wouldn't do, like assisting in the surgery. Vlad
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Post by Matthew on Oct 29, 2004 18:34:39 GMT -5
Vlad: Good review. I noticed the song title of course, but I did not think to look up the lyrics and see how they might apply. Thoughts about the dark and the light.. metaphoric, refferring to their pasts and their decisions... their charecteristics and their nature.. Expanding on what you spoke of...Sayid is dark haired and dark skinned, and from Iraq, the "bad guy" in the recent wars: yet he has shown himself to be a person of civilized deportment and constructive nature... he repairs and creates. Sawyer is the light-skinned light-haired guy from the USA, (the "good guy") and he is not a creature of civilization, of civilized interaction: he is the lone wolf, who hides supplies, and destroys: the polar bear, and partially the marshall. Huh.. and now I see that this is pretty well covered by what you said in the review under their attitudes. oh well. Duality, dichotomy, the 180 degree change, is important in both the island's landscape and the lives of all the castaways we have seen thus far. Jack changes to a leader, Locke becomes able to walk... Sun changes from a part of an island community in their midst into a bridge into that island... Kate goes from prisoner to marshall, at Sawyer's designation.. from the lawbreaker to the law enforcer.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 29, 2004 18:35:09 GMT -5
Perhaps. I really feel like he is sorta the face for the nameless ones, myself. Joe average. And I also think that he is going to follow Jack wherever Jack goes as a leader. Thus far he has, including doing things he normally wouldn't do, like assisting in the surgery. Vlad hm....ok...you mentioned this to me once before I think but this time I see what you mean. With 46 people - they aren't all going to be heard from, most will simply follow whoever is the established leader. He may turn out to be very significant in little ways, as the 'common folk' always are. And seeming insignificant in the big ways. He may not get a story of the week. So that would still work in the scenario we are discussing. Did I mention I love this show?
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Post by Matthew on Oct 29, 2004 18:36:34 GMT -5
Vlad mentioned he got the watch from Sun's father - so then I thought maybe it represented to him everything he had done - all he'd worked for.... or is that exactly what you just said? I'm not really sure... ;D I think it's another way of expressing roughly the same idea?
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Post by Nickim on Oct 30, 2004 9:41:29 GMT -5
huh! I didn't catch that at all! Interesting, they were all standing right htere, but only Charley got stung. You could definitely be otno something. Tho', about Locke, I don't read him as knowing or being able to do anything more than the rest. (Staring down the "creature" not withstanding) I think he is jsut a little more tuned in on the island, perhaps. Vlad Because Charley had an irrational fear of bees. I think his irrational fear is what killed the pilot. He had a concussion, so he couldn't be rational.I love the character updates with the pictures, they're funny. But, I think you should cut Jack some slack, maybe he has "issues."
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Post by Karen on Oct 30, 2004 16:56:35 GMT -5
Because Charley had an irrational fear of bees. I think his irrational fear is what killed the pilot. He had a concussion, so he couldn't be rational.I love the character updates with the pictures, they're funny. But, I think you should cut Jack some slack, maybe he has "issues." Charlie and his encounter with the beehive was shown interspersed with Jin's attack on Michael. I think that, along with paralling the fact that Charlie will soon be consumed by drug withdrawal pain, it was also paralleling Jin's irrational fear of Michael and of losing Sun. Altho, it's not so irrational, since Jin knows deep down that he has disappointed Sun by making that deal with her father. So the fear that's been buzzing beneath the surface of his psyche, finally enveloped him when he saw Michael wearing Sun's father's watch. But like Michael said, the watch and time doesn't mean anything on the island. And now, neither does the deal Jin made with Sun's father. I like the way you guys make me think. Still have to read the rest of Vlad's review, tho. And Erin's, Spring's, etc, etc, etc. Got any spare hours?
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Post by Nickim on Oct 30, 2004 18:48:12 GMT -5
Charlie and his encounter with the beehive was shown interspersed with Jin's attack on Michael. I think that along with paralling the fact that Charlie will soon be consumed by drug withdrawal pain, it was also paralleling Jin's irrational fear of Michael and of losing Sun. Altho, it's not so irrational, since Jin knows deep down that he has disappointed Sun by making that deal with her father. So the fear that's been buzzing beneath the surface of his psyche, finally enveloped him when he saw Michael wearing Sun's father's watch. But like Michael said, the watch and time doesn't mean anything on the island. And now, neither does the deal Jin made with Sun's father. I like the way you guys make me think. Still have to read the rest of Vlad's review, tho. And Erin's, Spring's, etc, etc, etc. Got any spare hours? Actually I do, too bad I can't sell them.
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Post by Becky H on Oct 30, 2004 19:36:15 GMT -5
OMG! We used to do the "name that ep" game too! They re-ran Gilligan so many times in my childhood that large chunks of it are still permanently imbedded in my head. "Hamlet, dear, your **something** is clear, avenging thy father's **something**, you seek to harm your Uncle and Mom, but you're scaring me to death". The "neither a borrower nor a lender be" song. The Honeybees! "You nee-eed me." Lola I so wanna see Sayid make a radio out of a coconut shell. Oh! And they should make one of those pedal cars out of bamboo and woven mats! And then radioactive vegetable seeds can wash up on the beach and they plant them . . . . I have perhaps, spent too much time thinking about this. Gilligan alert! In between the heaping helpings of horror movies on tv last night, I saw a commercial for a new Gilligan's Island-based reality show. They were fake-auditioning Gilligans. Will the madness never cease?!
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Post by Lola m on Oct 30, 2004 23:33:27 GMT -5
First off, nice recap. (Still very much appreciating these and have already dipped back into previous ones to refresh my memory.)
Add my thanks to Patti's and Matthew's for finding the song lyrics. I had forgotten that the original/traditional words were a woman's. Very nice analogy/metaphor you draw between the lyrics and the downward spiral of Sun's marriage. I particularly liked how you described Jin's dilemna.
Plus, very nice catch about the parallels to Kate and Jack. I hadn't looked at it in that light before and this really made me go back and re-look at the exchanges between them.
I really enjoyed your take on the three main stories in this ep - Sun and Jin, Kate and Jack, Charley and Locke. Your final lines summed it up well.
A few final thoughts: * Like you, I'm finding the flashbacks to be an excellent part of the storytelling. I would also give the show's writers and editors a big thumbs up for they way they are intercutting the backstories with the current timeline on the island. Just very very well done. * Didn't catch all the watch "tip-offs" 'til you mentioned them - very nice subtle touch. * Total agreement on the dumbness of the "it's either the beach or the cave" concept. Everyone I know that watches the show has said this was just not a good thing. A better plot device could have been devised to create the same idea of splitting the group.
Lola
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Post by Karen on Nov 2, 2004 23:27:34 GMT -5
I finally got to digest your review, Vlad. Very nicely done. It took a while for the comparison of the song to the episode to sink in. I didn't get the prostitution analogy at first. My mind went to the "House of the Rising Sun" as having something to do with Sun's gradual dissatisfaction or discontent with her situation in her house. But you are right, both Sun and Jin gave up a part of themselves to "have all the money they need" - the gold watch. I think Sun saw in Jin from the beginning a way out from under her father's thumb. Was Jin's love for Sun true, or was he using her as a stepping stone out of his station in life. I tend to think he truly loved Sun, as she did him. Sun wanted to get away from her father so badly, that she did turn a blind eye to the "deal" Jin made with her father. That's why I think she decided in the end to stay with Jin. She knew that her decision to turn that blind eye, turned him into her father's servant. He just gave up one type of servitude for another. I thought it interesting that at the end, Sun was eyeing the "impractical" dress in the cave. She is still straining to be "free". Could Adam and Eve had been conjured up in much the same way as the polar bear and Jack's dad was? I agree that there could have been a more practical solution to the cave versus the beach decision. What I didn't get was that previously Jack made that inspiring speech about "we all have to work together, or we die alone", and then he decides to split with the group. Kate's decision to stay on the beach could've been to keep an eye on the group that stayed - or to be a link between the two groups. When I rewatched the episode, I noticed she had her shoes off and was digging her toes into the sand. She is obviously more comfortable there. I probably would've stayed on the beach, because that jungle and the creep-crawley stuff in it scares me. Thanks, Vlad!
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LilRed
Junior S'cubie
Posts: 18
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Post by LilRed on Nov 3, 2004 10:29:38 GMT -5
Another great review Vlad! I did not catch any of the references to the watch when I watched the ep, so I'm glad that you pointed them out. It's really nice to see how well the writers are planning out these shows. I also wondered if Jin was really in love with Sun or was he just using her. I still haven't completely decided. The flowers tell me that he truely cares for her, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't still using her as well. And how come no one commented on the stripping shirts with the bees? Was I really the only one who was yelling at the tv? "Jump in the water!" It seemed like a more logical solution to me, then taking off the shirts and risking more bare skin. But then again we wouldn't have gotten Charlie's great "looks like C's to me" line.
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Post by William the Bloody on Nov 3, 2004 17:43:17 GMT -5
Another great review Vlad! I did not catch any of the references to the watch when I watched the ep, so I'm glad that you pointed them out. It's really nice to see how well the writers are planning out these shows. Thank you! I try and I am glad that everyone posting here seems to enjoy my take on the show. I know I miss plenty of things and occasionally maybe completely off base. I really enjoy everyones followup to the review and the many insights they have to provide themselves. Someday, maybe halfway through, we'll have to try some grand experiement of a "group" review. Or maybe this is a group review. *L* Yes, I was also waiting for them to jump in the pool... fully expecting the water to brassierly...err...brazenly highlight Kate's bees, or C's... or whatever. Fortunately, the show took the higher road. Well, more humorous, anyway Vlad ps. Red, I am glad to see you coming back to post among us! You seem to be enjoying hte show nd also enjoying our interaction. Looking forward to seeing you tonight with our discussion of The Moth. (Am I the only one that keeps visualizing The Tick and Mothman here?) V.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Feb 27, 2006 14:46:29 GMT -5
Hee. Jin knows how to fish. Shannon should have asked him.
If I ever end up on a deserted island, I want Jin and Sun with me.
Charlie's annoying. But because he's ansty and going through withdrawal.
About the caves, to Locke. it's totally you.
Charlie, you deserve it.
Corpses. 40-50 years?
Black pebble, white pebble. Storm of the Century.
Puppy!!
Michaels got Jin's or Sun's watch.
Walt's birthday is Aug 24th.
Poor Sun can't manage to escape her father.
subtext. guitar/heroine
Sayid's glee at interrogating Jin.
Is there a reason you didn't consult us when you decided to set up your own civilization?
Sorry, am I in high school? Yes. Yes you are.
11:15. Wasn't supposed to get on that plane?
Sun liked Jin for what he was not what he was trying to be. Jin was trying to be what he thought Sun wanted.
Ah, it's her father's watch.
Make it a choice to quit. Hmm...
I don't want to be Eve.
Aw, the flower. Chains that bind.
song is appropriate.
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Post by Lola m on Mar 14, 2006 17:48:12 GMT -5
Hee. Jin knows how to fish. Shannon should have asked him. If I ever end up on a deserted island, I want Jin and Sun with me. Charlie's annoying. But because he's ansty and going through withdrawal. About the caves, to Locke. it's totally you. Charlie, you deserve it. Corpses. 40-50 years? Black pebble, white pebble. Storm of the Century. Puppy!! Michaels got Jin's or Sun's watch. Walt's birthday is Aug 24th. Poor Sun can't manage to escape her father. subtext. guitar/heroineSayid's glee at interrogating Jin. Is there a reason you didn't consult us when you decided to set up your own civilization? Sorry, am I in high school? Yes. Yes you are. 11:15. Wasn't supposed to get on that plane? Sun liked Jin for what he was not what he was trying to be. Jin was trying to be what he thought Sun wanted. Ah, it's her father's watch. Make it a choice to quit. Hmm... I don't want to be Eve. Aw, the flower. Chains that bind. song is appropriate. Re: what I italicized above. Boy, that really resonated with me more thinking of the more recent Charlie flashback where we see his mom turning the gift of a piano into pressure to save the family. So, music is important to him, is in his soul, but is also inextricably connected with the idea of "saving" someone. And it was just reinforced by his experience with his brother and the band . . .
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