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Post by Sue on Nov 11, 2004 19:41:20 GMT -5
Understood (though - being inconsisent also OK in my book.) And, well put: I see Jack and Sayid the same way - desperate and giving up on their moral code. Kate is, I think, going to be the . . . moral center, I guess you could say. I don't know what her "crime" is so I'm feeling a little uncertain on her overall. I guessing that neither Sayid nor Jack or any of them are going to be heroes . . . I think they're all going to be really imperfect people.Well, and where have we seen that before...besides Buffy, Angel and real life. The local paper here has been full of a story about a deadbeat dad (behind on his child support) who gave a kidney to a complete stranger. Go figure. Gray, gray, gray....it's all gray. Heroes/imperfect people: not mutually exclusive, really pretty much impossible to only be a hero except in really old westerns.
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Post by Rachael on Nov 11, 2004 19:49:11 GMT -5
Well, and where have we seen that before...besides Buffy, Angel and real life. The local paper here has been full of a story about a deadbeat dad (behind on his child support) who gave a kidney to a complete stranger. Go figure. Gray, gray, gray....it's all gray. Heroes/imperfect people: not mutually exclusive, really pretty much impossible to only be a hero except in really old westerns. And even then, the good ones have shades of gray (thinking of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, or for gray shading into black, High Plains Drifter - okay, that one's not so much really old).
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Post by Barb on Nov 11, 2004 20:06:36 GMT -5
All right, time to ramble. Nothing in any particular order.
Sawyer and Kate kiss? Guh! I want him to kiss me, now. Wow....tongue and all. On Network TV!
Locke? There's NO way Sawyer could have known exactly when Sayid was going to set off HIS rocket, so setting a slow fuse wouldn't have done any good. The timing between the rockets was too good for Sawyer NOT to have been there to do his. I think you protest too much, sir. Why are you SO invested in Sayid believing that Sawyer knocked him out? Too bad Sayid went along with what you said without really thinking it through.
Charlie and Claire. Y'all are so cute. Charlie, you're doing miraculously well for a guy in heroin withdrawl. In my health class, I heard it takes at least 3 days. It's been 2 (I think), and you're not even shaking. Still, the imaginary peanut butter? Brilliant. And sticking your finger in your mouth that way...? Whoa....sexy.
Sayid. You clearly don't enjoy torture, but are willing to do it to get the medicine. I wonder, though. If it had been anyone else, would you have been so eager to turn to torture? And even with Sawyer, you felt bad afterward. Enough to leave. (Come back, Sayid!)
Jack. You're not cut out to even WATCH torture. Even of Sawyer. Helping Shannon calm down was good, but will not always work. Would be good to get with Sun and figure out all the remedies she knows.
Hurley. Jedi Moment. Down one belt notch. I love that you smacked Charlie down over the food thing. And who would be bringing a jar of peanut butter on the flight from Australia, anyway?
Sun. Brilliant use of eucalyptus. A longer term solution than finding Shannon's inhalers, as those would eventually run out, even if they DID have them. Will Eucalyptus work for a severe attack? Also, so cool to walk away from Jin and his knee-jerk reaction to what you're doing.
Kate. Wake up. There ARE people that disgusting, even if you don't think Sawyer to be one of them. Also, good show kissing Sawyer. Nummy. And figuring out his secret about the letter.
Sawyer. You really want to die, don't you? Die, but not be maimed. That's why you egged Jack and Sayid on, but gave in when Sayid threatened to take an eye. Becoming what you hate isn't that uncommon, especially as obsessed as you were with the Real Sawyer. Think if you're disgusting enough someone will kill you? Have you tried hitting on Sun? I'm sure Jin would be delighted to take you out, then. You seem a great kisser though, dammit. How come jerk guys can be so hot?
That's all I can think of off hand.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 11, 2004 20:45:22 GMT -5
All right, time to ramble. Nothing in any particular order. Sawyer and Kate kiss? Guh! I want him to kiss me, now. Wow....tongue and all. On Network TV! Locke? There's NO way Sawyer could have known exactly when Sayid was going to set off HIS rocket, so setting a slow fuse wouldn't have done any good. The timing between the rockets was too good for Sawyer NOT to have been there to do his. I think you protest too much, sir. Why are you SO invested in Sayid believing that Sawyer knocked him out? Too bad Sayid went along with what you said without really thinking it through. Charlie and Claire. Y'all are so cute. Charlie, you're doing miraculously well for a guy in heroin withdrawl. In my health class, I heard it takes at least 3 days. It's been 2 (I think), and you're not even shaking. Still, the imaginary peanut butter? Brilliant. And sticking your finger in your mouth that way...? Whoa....sexy. Sayid. You clearly don't enjoy torture, but are willing to do it to get the medicine. I wonder, though. If it had been anyone else, would you have been so eager to turn to torture? And even with Sawyer, you felt bad afterward. Enough to leave. (Come back, Sayid!) Jack. You're not cut out to even WATCH torture. Even of Sawyer. Helping Shannon calm down was good, but will not always work. Would be good to get with Sun and figure out all the remedies she knows. Hurley. Jedi Moment. Down one belt notch. I love that you smacked Charlie down over the food thing. And who would be bringing a jar of peanut butter on the flight from Australia, anyway? Sun. Brilliant use of eucalyptus. A longer term solution than finding Shannon's inhalers, as those would eventually run out, even if they DID have them. Will Eucalyptus work for a severe attack? Also, so cool to walk away from Jin and his knee-jerk reaction to what you're doing. Kate. Wake up. There ARE people that disgusting, even if you don't think Sawyer to be one of them. Also, good show kissing Sawyer. Nummy. And figuring out his secret about the letter. Sawyer. You really want to die, don't you? Die, but not be maimed. That's why you egged Jack and Sayid on, but gave in when Sayid threatened to take an eye. Becoming what you hate isn't that uncommon, especially as obsessed as you were with the Real Sawyer. Think if you're disgusting enough someone will kill you? Have you tried hitting on Sun? I'm sure Jin would be delighted to take you out, then. You seem a great kisser though, dammit. How come jerk guys can be so hot? That's all I can think of off hand. Probably not, but as long as Shannon doesn't do something to trigger an attack--like play beach volleyball she should be okay. My closest childhood friend had severe asthma, but everyone around her chain smoked--a major trigger. As Jack told her, a lot of the problem was caused by panic.
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Post by Rob on Nov 11, 2004 22:34:23 GMT -5
Probably not, but as long as Shannon doesn't do something to trigger an attack--like play beach volleyball she should be okay. My closest childhood friend had severe asthma, but everyone around her chain smoked--a major trigger. As Jack told her, a lot of the problem was caused by panic. Jackie Joyner Kersee - generally considered to be one of the three or four greatest all-around athletes in history, male or female - suffers from asthma. That's not to minimize it, of course...but it does show that it can be lived with. On the other hand, Jackie has the best doctors and medicine at her disposal...so your point is still valid. Excessive exercise would probably be a bad idea. In other words, just forget I posted this.
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Post by Lola m on Nov 12, 2004 7:39:33 GMT -5
All right, time to ramble. Nothing in any particular order. Sawyer and Kate kiss? Guh! I want him to kiss me, now. Wow....tongue and all. On Network TV! So, you're saying that Sawyer and Kate kissed? And it was a good kiss? ;D Yup - the slow fuse thing is just so not logical, so Locke knew that Sayid was angry enough that he wouldn't stop and put two and two together - just go after sawyer. I like how you phrased this: "why are you SO invested in Sayid believing". I hadn't thought of it quite that way. Good question! Charlie and the imaginary peanut butter. Sort of like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Only not. ;D That little pantomime for Claire was very . . . nice. Mmm hmmm. And I loved her reaction - just having to smile and laugh a little 'cuz he's being so goofy and then playing along and realizing she really should move to the caves. Liked your descriptions of the two guys - Sayid not enjoying and Jack not cut out to watch. The whole storyline about the torture really revealed a lot about each guy - and about Kate. Jack and Sun together are a valuable medical resource for the group. Maybe Sun could even use that as a way to pretend to "learn" some English. Both Hurley and Sun had great (brief, yes, but still great) scenes in this ep. Both showed a nice quiet strength. Quiet strength can be easily overlooked in a group of people with the jockeying for leadership and so on. But quiet strength will serve the group well in the long run. Another very interesting turn of phrase. Sawyer wants to die/be hurt, but not be maimed. I wonder again if this is part of his total investment in his image of himself. He wants to be the smooth talking despicable con man - wants to be hated, but also still attract people? That part of the con man side is too strong, perhaps? Cool thoughts, Barba! Lola
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 12, 2004 7:40:46 GMT -5
All right, time to ramble. Nothing in any particular order. Sawyer and Kate kiss? Guh! I want him to kiss me, now. Wow....tongue and all. On Network TV! He did seem like a good kisser, didn't he? Should we tie him to a tree and line up? Yes! I thought the same thing. Last week, Locke was low on my list of Sayid-conker suspects. Now, after his little manipulative speech where he describes HIMSELF when he describes the type of person who might have done it, and then deliberately puts Sayid onto Saywer, he's number ONE on my suspect list. But, but . . . .Charlie belongs with Shannon!! OK. I know I should give up on that, but . . . it's hard. Lots of good thinking, for off hand.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 12, 2004 7:43:08 GMT -5
And even then, the good ones have shades of gray (thinking of The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, or for gray shading into black, High Plains Drifter - okay, that one's not so much really old). Oh - I love The Man Who Shot Libery Valance. A perfect example of a story that explores the shades of grey - who's the hero?
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Post by Sara on Nov 12, 2004 8:28:52 GMT -5
1. She had a pretty mean left hook. 2. I wonder if even she realizes how much she revealed when she told Sawyer she'd seen him reading the letter, folding it carefully, putting it back, and noticed his expression during the process. Translation: she pays attention to him and what he's doing even when he's not being annoying toward her.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 12, 2004 8:39:24 GMT -5
1. She had a pretty mean left hook. 2. I wonder if even she realizes how much she revealed when she told Sawyer she'd seen him reading the letter, folding it carefully, putting it back, and noticed his expression during the process. Translation: she pays attention to him and what he's doing even when he's not being annoying toward her. She is intrigued by Sawyer, practically in luuurve despite herself. The ep had all those examples of people being "manipulated" into doing what they wanted/needed to do anyhow - [/li][li]Sayid and Jack going after Sawyer [/li][li]The married couple trying to make easy money [/li][li]Claire going to the cave, "believing" in the peanut butter by the power of suggestion [/li][li]Jack talking Shannon into breathing more easily (power of suggestion). Kate kissing Sawyer: One more example! As we note by her enthusiasm, this is something she's been (possibly wholly subconsciously) wanting to do anyhow.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 12, 2004 9:05:39 GMT -5
1. She had a pretty mean left hook. 2. I wonder if even she realizes how much she revealed when she told Sawyer she'd seen him reading the letter, folding it carefully, putting it back, and noticed his expression during the process. Translation: she pays attention to him and what he's doing even when he's not being annoying toward her. Ooooo, yeah, she's attracted to him in spite of herself. Haven't seen that on TV before, have we?
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Post by Nickim on Nov 12, 2004 9:07:09 GMT -5
He did seem like a good kisser, didn't he? Should we tie him to a tree and line up? <snipped for space> Only if I'm the only one in line.
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Post by Sara on Nov 12, 2004 10:55:50 GMT -5
She is intrigued by Sawyer, practically in luuurve despite herself. The ep had all those examples of people being "manipulated" into doing what they wanted/needed to do anyhow - [/li][li]Sayid and Jack going after Sawyer [/li][li]The married couple trying to make easy money [/li][li]Claire going to the cave, "believing" in the peanut butter by the power of suggestion [/li][li]Jack talking Shannon into breathing more easily (power of suggestion). Kate kissing Sawyer: One more example! As we note by her enthusiasm, this is something she's been (possibly wholly subconsciously) wanting to do anyhow.[/quote] And Jack certainly was not pleased when Sawyer mentioned their "make-out session," leading me to believe he is interested in her. Poor Jack--seems like the "nice" guys always get the short end of the stick. Heck, it's practically Riley vs. Spike all over again.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 12, 2004 12:28:26 GMT -5
And Jack certainly was not pleased when Sawyer mentioned their "make-out session," leading me to believe he is interested in her. Poor Jack--seems like the "nice" guys always get the short end of the stick. Heck, it's practically Riley vs. Spike all over again. I wasn't sure how to read Jack's expression. I wasn't convinced that he was very affected by the "make out session" remark. Sawyer is not so bad - he's actually been doing good, mostly, on the island. And aside from silly comments, hasn't done anything bad to speak of, on the island. And when he tried that nasty scam, back in the real world, he couldn't go through with it. SO - my feeling is on the surface, it's sorta Riley/Spike - but really, the diff between Jack/Sawyer, when it comes to good/bad is negligible. Kate has an attraction to them both - but the big diff is that Sawyer is showing an interest. Jack - if he's interested - he's going to have to show it soon.
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Post by Rob on Nov 12, 2004 13:59:43 GMT -5
Oh - I love The Man Who Shot Libery Valance. A perfect example of a story that explores the shades of grey - who's the hero? Personally, I'd say both Wayne and Stewart's characters are heroes in their own way. Just complicated. To his credit, Wayne had a couple of well-made, morally ambiguous films to go with all the predictable horse operas. "Red River" (with the underrated Montgomery Clift), and "The Searchers" both have interesting complexities.
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