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Post by Karen on Apr 7, 2005 12:03:51 GMT -5
*raises hand* *grabs Yola's hand, raises it too, briefly* I haven't caught up with everyone's comments, but the thought that Boone might be back did cross my mind - as I had the same thought when Ethan was killed. My house was crazy last night, so I didn't get to watch "Lost" as intently as I wanted to and only rewatched a part of it later on. Did anyone mention how ironic it was that Boone lost his life to a dead *leg*? That no matter how much blood was pumped into him it just pooled in the leg and caused his death? I'm not sure if it was intentional or not - but the parallel to Locke and his paralysis seemed significant. Jack has saved Boone, Charlie and Sawyer on the island in the past (any others?). Boone is the first of those to die. I wonder if that's going to be a pattern - or if it's not connected.
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Post by William the Bloody on Apr 7, 2005 12:08:17 GMT -5
Jeez--can't Jack ever get a break here, people? After all, the man was looking at someone with multiple injuries who'd lost a ton of blood; no sure way to determine if there was internal bleeding until such an injury produced a problem he could see (like the leg filling up with blood)--at which point it'd probably be too late to do anything about the problem; he'd just had to fix a collapsed lung with a frikkin' knitting needle; and was about to yank someone's broken bones into alignment without being able to give him anything for the excruciating pain Jack was about to cause. Call me crazy, but in his shoes I'd be a tad cranky myself. Plus, the look Jack gave Sun after she explained what the stick was for seemed (to me) to convey his acknowledgement that he'd been in the wrong, his gratitude that she'd thought of it, and an apology for being a jerk. And I think she knew he'd simply had a moment of taking his frustration out on her, which is why she didn't snap back in kind. Sorry--I just felt bad for Jack last night; he was a decent (though far from perfect) guy doing the best he could in a nearly impossible situation to try and save someone's life. Personally, I think his refusal to give up on Boone even when it was clear Jack was only delaying the inevitable, paralleling both the situation with the marshall and the flashback we saw involving his drunk father and the woman on the operating table, is both a flaw and the thing that makes him a good doctor--not to mention the only reason Charlie is still breathing. At any rate, I know I'd want him fighting for me.Eetah!! And can I say, I hope he takes a little of that never say die attitude and beats the holy crap out of Locke when he finds out what he and Boone have been up to these few weeks. If Locke had asked for help in excavating hte hatch, if others had been around ...then they probably could have come up with a better solution for getting at that plane in the treewhen it was found. Like maybe dislodging it first then examining it?? I can't lay Boone's actual death on Locke's head... but he certainly helped get him in the position so that it would happen without much concern to Boone's actual safety. Criminal Negligence definitely. Vlad
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Post by Rachael on Apr 7, 2005 12:11:42 GMT -5
I haven't caught up with everyone's comments, but the thought that Boone might be back did cross my mind - as I had the same thought when Ethan was killed. My house was crazy last night, so I didn't get to watch "Lost" as intently as I wanted to and only rewatched a part of it later on. Did anyone mention how ironic it was that Boone lost his life to a dead *leg*? That no matter how much blood was pumped into him it just pooled in the leg and caused his death?
I'm not sure if it was intentional or not - but the parallel to Locke and his paralysis seemed significant.Jack has saved Boone, Charlie and Sawyer on the island in the past (any others?). Boone is the first of those to die. I wonder if that's going to be a pattern - or if it's not connected. I definitely noticed the connection - I mentioned that I thought it almost seemed that Boone's leg was traded for Locke's legs.
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Post by Rachael on Apr 7, 2005 12:13:54 GMT -5
Eetah!! And can I say, I hope he takes a little of that never say die attitude and beats the holy crap out of Locke when he finds out what he and Boone have been up to these few weeks. If Locke had asked for help in excavating hte hatch, if others had been around ...then they probably could have come up with a better solution for getting at that plane in the treewhen it was found. Like maybe dislodging it first then examining it?? I can't lay Boone's actual death on Locke's head... but he certainly helped get him in the position so that it would happen without much concern to Boone's actual safety. Criminal Negligence definitely. Vlad See, this is where I'm having some of my issues with Jack and his "leadership". I just don't think it was necessary to revert to corporal punishment the way they so often do, and the "beat him up first, then sort out what really happened after" attitude that many of the castaways (male castaways) possess is getting on my nerves. Especially since it gains them no useful information, doesn't do anything to change the behavior of the person being beaten, and...well, frankly, has been a complete mistake at least a couple of times. As with Jin.
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Post by William the Bloody on Apr 7, 2005 12:26:31 GMT -5
See, this is where I'm having some of my issues with Jack and his "leadership". I just don't think it was necessary to revert to corporal punishment the way they so often do, and the "beat him up first, then sort out what really happened after" attitude that many of the castaways (male castaways) possess is getting on my nerves. Especially since it gains them no useful information, doesn't do anything to change the behavior of the person being beaten, and...well, frankly, has been a complete mistake at least a couple of times. As with Jin. But it makes you feel better *grin* And I didn't say beat him up first... I said when he finds out what Locke has been up to... then it's a reasoned, tho' passionate, response to Locke's incredible selfishness and stupidity and deceit. Or perhaps he should wait until Shannon finds out and goes to kill him all on her own? Or tries to get Sayid to help? No, I think the ass whuppin' would be the best approach here. A man died due entirely to Locke's greed (desire to retain his legs) and negligance (sending Boone up in that plane without help or any type of safety precautions when it's obviously been hanging htere for some time. It wasn't going anywhere.) He deserves punishment. Vlad
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Post by RAKSHA on Apr 7, 2005 12:59:22 GMT -5
Ah, but he is also a reaction to his father in the way he tries to take the best of what Doc Shepard Sr. taught him, and discard the dishumanity and the worst of the arrogance.. I like Jack. I like Jack too; though he isn't my favorite of all the characters. But he's in a situation that would amplify the arrogance and dishumanity in anyone...
Jack is a doctor. If he's also a surgeon (can't remember) than he's already predisposed to be one of the most arrogant people alive (surgeons in general). As a doctor, he was trained to expect and deserve deference and respect from patients and nurses, orderlies, other professionals. He was also trained to a certain code of conduct that did not allow criticism by anyone besides other doctors, of his decisions.
Now Dr. Jack is the only doctor on a deserted island, with 40+ patients and very little medicine. There are no trained nurses, no nice clean/sterile hospital surroundings, just a bunch of infections and wounds waiting to happen, and only Jack to depend on as the final authority. He's got to be feeling a lot of pressure, knowing that he's all those people have in the way of trained physician, and he's woefully unequipped. It's also a situation that could easily go to someone's head. What's keeping Jack's head close to its original proportions rather than becoming swelled is Jack's own fierce compulsion to be better than his father.
I didn't blame him for lashing out at Sun - it wasn't right, but he was under the gun; and he did apologize or something not too long afterward.
And I wish all doctors were as fierce on their patients' behalf as Jack is...
Jack should be thanking his lucky stars for Sun's presence and competence. I don't think Jack is much of a leader though...He should start training others in both conventional medicine and seeing that they learn herb-lore/Eastern therapies from Sun, setting up CPR clinics, seeing if some "moonshine" can brewed as a sterilizing agent, etc.
I think Jack is foolishly channeling his anger and frustration over losing Boone into a very foolish attack on Locke. There isn't any real evidence that Locke tried to kill Boone - Boone never said that Locke hurt him, only that Locke told him not to tell, which could mean a lot or a little but isn't a conclusive statement on its own.
If Jack does kill or incapacitate Locke, or cause him to be killed or incapicated because Jack thinks Locke killed Boone, then Jack will not only have destroyed or damaged a vital resource for the castaways, but risks angering the island, which does seem to have a special fondness for Locke. That's not an excuse to exonerate a murderer, but Jack has no proof that Locke set out to hurt Boone, just that Locke told Boone not to tell about something....
GAIL
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Post by RAKSHA on Apr 7, 2005 13:11:17 GMT -5
But it makes you feel better *grin* And I didn't say beat him up first... I said when he finds out what Locke has been up to... then it's a reasoned, tho' passionate, response to Locke's incredible selfishness and stupidity and deceit. Or perhaps he should wait until Shannon finds out and goes to kill him all on her own? Or tries to get Sayid to help? No, I think the ass whuppin' would be the best approach here. A man died due entirely to Locke's greed (desire to retain his legs) and negligance (sending Boone up in that plane without help or any type of safety precautions when it's obviously been hanging htere for some time. It wasn't going anywhere.) He deserves punishment. Vlad I would have to watch the episode again, but I'm not sure that Locke has the entire blame for Boone's death. Wasn't Boone capable, as a competent adult, of seeing that the situation was dangerous, yet he agreed to go up and explore the plane? Locke did not physically force him to go there. Also, I remember Locke screaming "Get out of there" to Boone, more than once, while Boone still had the chance to extricate himself from the plane, and I think Boone heard him and chose to stay.
I would say that Locke is morally guilty of Boone's death; he did send him up there to feed his obsession. But it could also be argued that Locke was not completely sane when he made that decision. And Boone went up to the plane of his own free will, and stayed there despite Boone's warning. I don't know that Locke deserves to be physically beaten for a huge moral failing that contributed to Boone's death. And moral guilt doesn't necessarily equal legal guilt. Are they setting up a situation on the island that anyone suspected of a crime or of endangering others' welfare, regardless of proof, should be tortured, beaten, etc.?
GAIL
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Post by Matthew on Apr 7, 2005 13:21:34 GMT -5
yep, as the Rh factor is just another surface protein, like the A and B proteins. You can't really tell what your donor is, precisely, without multiple tests and some known samples, but compatibillity is determined by the blood pretty much not immediately turning to pudding when you mix it: Huh.... though if you mix Rh- blood with Rh+ blood, you are gonna (in this view) get a clotting reaction, from the negative blood reacting to the surface proteins on the positive blood, but Rh negative blood can be recieved by Rh positive people without causing clotting... which means that I am apparently talking out of my arse here, and you CAN'T reliably determine Rh compatibillity that way. Dammit. Huh.. but O blood donated to A and B patients does not clot in reacting to the surface proteins it encounters... huh.. Well hmm. Only one thing to do. My mom's O+, my best friends are O-. I need to break out the hypodermics, in the interest of science, and do some experimenting!! Or, maybe, ya know, I could just read some more on the subject... More reading done. Okay: if someone has type A blood, they have the A protien marker (antigens) on their blood cells, and ANTIBODIES for type B blood in their blood fluid. If someone has type B blood, they have the B protein marker and antibodies for type A blood. If they have type AB blood, they have both the A and B protein markers (antigens) on the cell surfaces, and NO antibodies to type A or type B blood. If they have type O blood, they have NO antigens on their blood cell surfaces, AND antibodies for the A an B markers in the blood fluid. Rh factor is a little different: if you have the Rh antigen on your cell surfaces, you are Rh positive: if you have none, you are Rh negative: but in this case, the antibodies do not develop until you have been exposed to it at least once: first-time exposure won't result in a transfusion reaction. What this means is: mixing the blood together to cross-clot would have told them whether the blood was compatible: it would not have conclusively told them which blood was what type: and the Rh factor was something that, if Boone had been exposed to it before, would have shown up by the blood clotting in the test when mixed. if he hadn't been exposed to it before, it would have stayed liquid, and been safe to transfuse, that one time. Or so I have gathered. Biggest source for this: my.webmd.com/hw/health_guide_atoz/hw3681.aspAnd anyways, it's all moot: he was fated to die because JJ said so. I disagree with Rachael on the amputation: he should have done it immediately, I feel: having very little in the way of antibiotics and asepsis, it would have been Boone's best chance of survival: even with internal bleeding, organ failure is much more likely with severe blood loss. A tournequit might have worked to start out with, but he was going to lose that leg, no matter what.
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Post by Matthew on Apr 7, 2005 13:42:08 GMT -5
See, this is where I'm having some of my issues with Jack and his "leadership". I just don't think it was necessary to revert to corporal punishment the way they so often do, and the "beat him up first, then sort out what really happened after" attitude that many of the castaways (male castaways) possess is getting on my nerves. Especially since it gains them no useful information, doesn't do anything to change the behavior of the person being beaten, and...well, frankly, has been a complete mistake at least a couple of times. As with Jin. I'm of two minds about this (surprise!) as there are circumstances where I think the excessive violence was warranted, and times when I think it was the LAST thing they needed to do. Por ejemplo: beating the dog-snot out of Ethan even after they captured him(prior to Charlie's decision to lead-poison him, of course)? Justified. Hit him, hit him, hit him, to keep him down, to keep him not a threat, as Ethan was a tough sunnuvabitch. KEEP hitting him until you have him so debelitated and so surrounded that you can get your confederates around in enough numbers to keep him pacified. Hell, I was freaking out that Sawyer was holding a gun on him as close as four feet away. Sawyer? with the asthma meds they assumed he had? Torturing him was idiotic: first thing they should have ASKED him. Period. This assuming crap pulled them all too far out of their civilized niches. With Locke? Dunno. Jack's angry, the same as he was with Ethan, when he was wailing on him, but he does not present as much of a threat as Ethan did, for Ethan was a brutal ruthless man. Locke may be ruthless in pursuit of his shamanic ends, but he's probably more of a fair match than Ethan was for Jack: less need for Jack to drop him upon first encountering him. But it's true: the leadership on the island tends to follow the path of "my way, or MY WAY, DAMMIT!" a lot more often than they should. Understandable, though, from the stress and frustration they are all under.
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Post by Matthew on Apr 7, 2005 13:46:45 GMT -5
But it makes you feel better *grin* And I didn't say beat him up first... I said when he finds out what Locke has been up to... then it's a reasoned, tho' passionate, response to Locke's incredible selfishness and stupidity and deceit. Or perhaps he should wait until Shannon finds out and goes to kill him all on her own? Or tries to get Sayid to help? No, I think the ass whuppin' would be the best approach here. A man died due entirely to Locke's greed (desire to retain his legs) and negligance (sending Boone up in that plane without help or any type of safety precautions when it's obviously been hanging htere for some time. It wasn't going anywhere.) He deserves punishment. Vlad But how does a reasonable person draw a parrelell between Locke sending Boone up into the plane, and Locke wanting to recover use of his legs? None of them know he was crippled before: nor that the island gave him back use of his legs.
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Post by Dragon on Apr 7, 2005 14:05:15 GMT -5
I haven't caught up with everyone's comments, but the thought that Boone might be back did cross my mind - as I had the same thought when Ethan was killed. My house was crazy last night, so I didn't get to watch "Lost" as intently as I wanted to and only rewatched a part of it later on. Did anyone mention how ironic it was that Boone lost his life to a dead *leg*? That no matter how much blood was pumped into him it just pooled in the leg and caused his death? I'm not sure if it was intentional or not - but the parallel to Locke and his paralysis seemed significant. Jack has saved Boone, Charlie and Sawyer on the island in the past (any others?). Boone is the first of those to die. I wonder if that's going to be a pattern - or if it's not connected. I am going to have to watch that last part of the ep again but I believe Boone said I'm too messed up inside, so I'm not gonna make it. Or something to that efect. It wasn't just the blood loss to the leg. the doc should have known that, if it was true, but maybe was blocking it so he could try the leg thing. I didn't know anyone was going to die. I guess I'm in the few percent that actually liked Boone because he was growing up to a pretty good young man. Seems Locke may be nuts, from the last ep. "The Island will fix things", or at least something like that. He must feel completely connected to it because of his legs. Dragon
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Post by Dragon on Apr 7, 2005 14:49:53 GMT -5
More reading done. Okay: if someone has type A blood, they have the A protien marker (antigens) on their blood cells, and ANTIBODIES for type B blood in their blood fluid. If someone has type B blood, they have the B protein marker and antibodies for type A blood. If they have type AB blood, they have both the A and B protein markers (antigens) on the cell surfaces, and NO antibodies to type A or type B blood. If they have type O blood, they have NO antigens on their blood cell surfaces, AND antibodies for the A an B markers in the blood fluid. Rh factor is a little different: if you have the Rh antigen on your cell surfaces, you are Rh positive: if you have none, you are Rh negative: but in this case, the antibodies do not develop until you have been exposed to it at least once: first-time exposure won't result in a transfusion reaction. What this means is: mixing the blood together to cross-clot would have told them whether the blood was compatible: it would not have conclusively told them which blood was what type: and the Rh factor was something that, if Boone had been exposed to it before, would have shown up by the blood clotting in the test when mixed. if he hadn't been exposed to it before, it would have stayed liquid, and been safe to transfuse, that one time. Or so I have gathered. Biggest source for this: my.webmd.com/hw/health_guide_atoz/hw3681.aspAnd anyways, it's all moot: he was fated to die because JJ said so. I disagree with Rachael on the amputation: he should have done it immediately, I feel: having very little in the way of antibiotics and asepsis, it would have been Boone's best chance of survival: even with internal bleeding, organ failure is much more likely with severe blood loss. A tournequit might have worked to start out with, but he was going to lose that leg, no matter what. I find it difficult to believe that in this day and age so few people know their blood-type. Also what drew Locke to Boone in the first place, did he feel a particular calling or was it that Boone was the one most likely to keep his secrets? Funny that no one asked more about the hunting. Must have been very tired of veggies by that time. It is becoming a "Lord of the Flies" moment. The civilization of the group dynamic depends on the conscience of the leadership. If Jack loses it again, the way he did with Ethan and the incident with Sawyer, he will lose the trust of the people he needs the most. Sawyer often will do almost anything if the person asks instead of demands something from him. He is flawed as they all are but has his pride. Jin also needs to prove himself and is doing so. Jack has to keep himself together. I believe he is suffering both from the loss of his father and his wife. It would explain his sometimes volitile nature. I knew that they were playing with us with the wedding scene. No way would Jack dump her at that time. He wouldn't humiliate her that way. He has too much empathy. He does not like leadership, but is not sure who he can trust to take his place, especially not Kate. He hasn't had much time to cogitate, but personally I would pick Hurley, he seems to be the only one who seldom blows up! He's also smarter than people think. Dragon
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Post by Karen on Apr 7, 2005 15:03:48 GMT -5
I am going to have to watch that last part of the ep again but I believe Boone said I'm too messed up inside, so I'm not gonna make it. Or something to that efect. It wasn't just the blood loss to the leg. the doc should have known that, if it was true, but maybe was blocking it so he could try the leg thing. I didn't know anyone was going to die. I guess I'm in the few percent that actually liked Boone because he was growing up to a pretty good young man. Seems Locke may be nuts, from the last ep. "The Island will fix things", or at least something like that. He must feel completely connected to it because of his legs. Dragon And Boone was awfully pretty, too. I've liked Boone from the beginning. He may have been an ineffective lifeguard, but he was always willing to help in any way he could. He almost drowned trying to save that woman early in the series. Maybe he had 'grown' to a place where he was ready to die and meet his maker. He seemed to be in a place of peace there at the end. I just want to say that between the two, Shannon should've been the one to get the axe. But she's got a ways to go to be redeemed. Locke is the island's lackey. He's probably so afraid that he'll do the wrong thing and lose the use of his legs, that if he isn't nuts now, he soon will be.
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Post by havoc on Apr 7, 2005 21:24:26 GMT -5
But it makes you feel better *grin* And I didn't say beat him up first... I said when he finds out what Locke has been up to... then it's a reasoned, tho' passionate, response to Locke's incredible selfishness and stupidity and deceit. Or perhaps he should wait until Shannon finds out and goes to kill him all on her own? Or tries to get Sayid to help? No, I think the ass whuppin' would be the best approach here. A man died due entirely to Locke's greed (desire to retain his legs) and negligance (sending Boone up in that plane without help or any type of safety precautions when it's obviously been hanging htere for some time. It wasn't going anywhere.) He deserves punishment. Vlad Did I miss something. Just caught up on the latest two eps and Locke didn't hold a gun to Boone's head. If you'll remember, when Locke saw that there appeared to be danger, he called for Boone to come down. Boone wouldn't listen and ended up getting hurt as a result. That isn't Locke's fault. Boone, I'm sure, did what he thought was best at the moment. And it cost him his life.
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Post by Queen E on Apr 7, 2005 22:30:54 GMT -5
Did I miss something. Just caught up on the latest two eps and Locke didn't hold a gun to Boone's head. If you'll remember, when Locke saw that there appeared to be danger, he called for Boone to come down. Boone wouldn't listen and ended up getting hurt as a result. That isn't Locke's fault. Boone, I'm sure, did what he thought was best at the moment. And it cost him his life. You're absolutely right. Boone made a choice to climb up there. Boone was an adult, and could have said "No way am I climbing up there." And when he realized there was nothing to find, he could have and should have left the plane, as Locke was shouting at him to do. But, in my view, and this is only my opinion, Locke does need to take some responsibility for what happened to Boone; he was actively mentoring Boone, and so Boone might have felt that Locke's request carried more weight. And his actions afterwards: not saying what happened, disappearing back to the hatch, that wasn't a good thing to do. It was bound to make Jack and the others very suspicious, and may have hindered Jack's efforts to help Boone (in the sense of knowing the exact circumstances and possibly figuring out that the leg would have been crushed in the fall). I do not, under any circumstances, believe that Locke deserves to pay with his life, or get beat up, tortured, or exiled. I'm wondering if the island itself, with all the emphasis on black and white we've seen, makes people act much more extreme... And Hi! I find Locke a fascinating character, and look forward to seeing even more development in his character! ETA: Ah, and I see Gail is of similar mind as well.
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