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Post by Karen on Apr 11, 2005 16:31:47 GMT -5
*Bravo!* Excellent review, Patti! I loved all your 'letting go' and black and white parallels and how you connected Jack's back story to what what going on at the island. Boone truly 'let go' in this episode. You mentioned: Sun: You can't save him Jack. Jack: Don't tell me what I can't do! and how Jack was really thinking back to what his father had said to him about not having what it takes if he fails. I thought that was very insightful. His needs to 'let go' of the tape of his father's words that he has repeating in his psyche because it effects his every action from when he was a boy. Being told that you 'don't have what it takes' is very damaging to a young person. (His 'Don't tell me what I can't do.' repeats the very same words that Locke says to Boone earlier.) Whether we call it God, the Island, or Fate, life and death happen. We can affect them, but we can't control them. In the end, it is only our reactions to them that we can change. The first step in AA is to admit being powerless (over alcohol). It seems to me that is one of the lessons that the lostaways are being led to learn. Locke's cry of "This was supposed to work!!" shows that he hasn't learned the lesson yet. Altho, his crying over the hatch shows a sort of submission to "fate". Jack - altho he eventually admitted to himself that he was powerless to save Boone - by saying Locke murdered Boone - shows that he still hasn't learned that there are some things he is powerless to control - like the actions of others. He is only in control of his actions and his choices. You've given me a lot of goodies to mull over. Especially: Two years previous to their wedding her vehicle collided with an SUV and her back was broken.Two things: We have yet to see how Locke gets paralyzed. Maybe he was driving an SUV. The only other person we've seen in an SUV was Hurley when he bought one after winning the lottery. Do you suppose that maybe an accident with an SUV was the trouble he got into that caused his family grief? LOL'd at your character review. OH Sawyer, you were all helpful and everything! Get over it! We like you snarky! (Hands off, girlie!) Thanks, Patti!
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Apr 11, 2005 17:35:57 GMT -5
*Bravo!* Excellent review, Patti! I loved all your 'letting go' and black and white parallels and how you connected Jack's back story to what what going on at the island. Boone truly 'let go' in this episode. You mentioned: Sun: You can't save him Jack. Jack: Don't tell me what I can't do! and how Jack was really thinking back to what his father had said to him about not having what it takes if he fails. I thought that was very insightful. His needs to 'let go' of the tape of his father's words that he has repeating in his psyche because it effects his every action from when he was a boy. Being told that you 'don't have what it takes' is very damaging to a young person. (His 'Don't tell me what I can't do.' repeats the very same words that Locke says to Boone earlier.) Whether we call it God, the Island, or Fate, life and death happen. We can affect them, but we can't control them. In the end, it is only our reactions to them that we can change. The first step in AA is to admit being powerless (over alcohol). It seems to me that is one of the lessons that the lostaways are being led to learn. Locke's cry of "This was supposed to work!!" shows that he hasn't learned the lesson yet. Altho, his crying over the hatch shows a sort of submission to "fate". Jack - altho he eventually admitted to himself that he was powerless to save Boone - by saying Locke murdered Boone - shows that he still hasn't learned that there are some things he is powerless to control - like the actions of others. He is only in control of his actions and his choices. You've given me a lot of goodies to mull over. Especially: Two years previous to their wedding her vehicle collided with an SUV and her back was broken.Two things: We have yet to see how Locke gets paralyzed. Maybe he was driving an SUV. The only other person we've seen in an SUV was Hurley when he bought one after winning the lottery. Do you suppose that maybe an accident with an SUV was the trouble he got into that caused his family grief? LOL'd at your character review. OH Sawyer, you were all helpful and everything! Get over it! We like you snarky! (Hands off, girlie!) Thanks, Patti! thank you Karen, I'm so glad you found some good stuff in the review. This one was harder for me because it was serious. I couldn't quip my way through it!
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Apr 11, 2005 17:37:34 GMT -5
Copied from the episode writeup at tvtome.com: When Flight 815 first crashed, there were 48 survivors by the end of the pilot episode. In "Tabula Rasa," the U.S. Marshall died, leaving 47, a character named Joanna died in "White Rabbit," leaving 46, and the murder of Scott by Ethan in "Homecoming" left 45 survivors. Boone's death in this episode leaves 44. In a flashback, Jack's fiance Sarah is wearing a t-shirt that has a rather large '44' on both the front and back.ah HA!!! very cool! I wondered if there was significance.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 11, 2005 18:28:23 GMT -5
Patti! Thanks for the enjoyable read.
Interesting. My two cents on this: The circle of life thing doesn't suggest that one life actually can replace another; I think it’s just more about the fact that death is a part of life; it defines life - and about the fact that while our individual, unique lives end, life in general goes on. I do find some comfort in that, though it doesn't change the pain of the loss of a particular life.
Wow. What insight into the ep. I love this bit. (Did you take any swigs for inspiration?)
Also, loved the “Way to let go, Jack,” ending. Indeed. Loved the captions too, LOLed at Jack’s especially. Now on to taking a shot at answering your questions:
What ended Jack's marriage? There were hints about Sara's dislike of alcohol. Did Jack start using his father's coping mechanism at some point? Or did she die? Is she still his wife? We don't really know she isn't, do we?
I don’t know what ended the marriage, but I think there is a hint in the Boone/Locke exchange you quoted:
Boone: I know you made a promise. I'm letting you off the hook. Let me go, Jack. Jack: I'm sorry. Boone: Don't be
I suspect Jack had an exchange much like this with Sara, but what got them to that point, I don’t know.
Sara's pj top had 44 on the left shoulder and a huge 44 on the back. Add those to the numbers tally...I haven't a clue if they have meaning or are just there to tease us.
There’s some discussion on the thread that 44 is the number of survivors left after Boone died (not counting Claire’s baby). Oh, I see that's already been mentioned. Never mind.
]The boat is going to be ready in a week....is it really going to leave the island? If so, is David Fury really going to be on it?
I suspect the boat will leave the island but not for long. As for David Fury – I was just in Erinland, where I learned that he is leaving Lost to develop that Spike TV movie and spin-off for Joss!
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Post by Lola m on Apr 13, 2005 12:15:59 GMT -5
Patti – excellent review!
To me, you cut right to the heart of the episode with your examination and comparison of the Jack marriage flashback to Jack and Boone and Claire on the island.
I was touched by the scene between Jack and his father as well. It was both sweet and sad to see their former relationship. Sweet because we got a chance to see that there was some connection, some good feeling between them in some form and sad because we know what happens later. But without this scene we’d be left with nothing between the cold, distant, somewhat depressing father of Jack’s childhood and daddy’s alcohol induced medical mistake(s) creating a rift between them and his downward spiral. Also, it really fits with dad’s drunken speech to Sawyer in the Australian bar.
I particularly loved:
This is exactly what the flashback was telling us about Jack. Your link back to White Rabbit is the key here. We’re seeing all the bits of the past that explain the Jack of the present.
The same goes with Claire. While we don’t get specific flashbacks, she does refer to incidents and feelings that relate to the flashback moments we have seen (planning to give the baby away) and past events on the island (her kidnap and very legitimate fear of what this might have done to the baby). And so, as you say so well, she is “also terrified of letting go, and will not breathe, push or even accept that she is in labor”. Just like Jack, “Claire stops fighting the inevitable”.
Your conclusion-less conclusion was perfect. “Way to let go, Jack.”
I also really liked seeing everyone work together with minimum fussing or problems. (Just step up and do what needs to be done!) And while I personally am curious about Jack marriage and what happened, the big important question must be the issue of the message Boone heard. “WE are the survivors” is just . . . woah. Sends me back to Rose and her reply to Jack’s “your husband is dead” speech – how do you know they aren’t thinking that about us?
Lola
**giggling over the image of David Fury fleeing the island on the raft **
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Apr 13, 2005 13:32:13 GMT -5
Patti – excellent review! To me, you cut right to the heart of the episode with your examination and comparison of the Jack marriage flashback to Jack and Boone and Claire on the island. I was touched by the scene between Jack and his father as well. It was both sweet and sad to see their former relationship. Sweet because we got a chance to see that there was some connection, some good feeling between them in some form and sad because we know what happens later. But without this scene we’d be left with nothing between the cold, distant, somewhat depressing father of Jack’s childhood and daddy’s alcohol induced medical mistake(s) creating a rift between them and his downward spiral. Also, it really fits with dad’s drunken speech to Sawyer in the Australian bar. I particularly loved: This is exactly what the flashback was telling us about Jack. Your link back to White Rabbit is the key here. We’re seeing all the bits of the past that explain the Jack of the present. The same goes with Claire. While we don’t get specific flashbacks, she does refer to incidents and feelings that relate to the flashback moments we have seen (planning to give the baby away) and past events on the island (her kidnap and very legitimate fear of what this might have done to the baby). And so, as you say so well, she is “also terrified of letting go, and will not breathe, push or even accept that she is in labor”. Just like Jack, “Claire stops fighting the inevitable”. Your conclusion-less conclusion was perfect. “Way to let go, Jack.” I also really liked seeing everyone work together with minimum fussing or problems. (Just step up and do what needs to be done!) And while I personally am curious about Jack marriage and what happened, the big important question must be the issue of the message Boone heard. “WE are the survivors” is just . . . woah. Sends me back to Rose and her reply to Jack’s “your husband is dead” speech – how do you know they aren’t thinking that about us? Lola **giggling over the image of David Fury fleeing the island on the raft ** Thank you Lola! Kudoes really do wonders for the day! *HUG*
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Post by Riff on Apr 16, 2005 6:37:09 GMT -5
Mutant spawn arrives - Boones leaves. Seems a more than fair trade. Call me evil, (you're evil!), but ever since we heard that a major character would kick it, I've been hoping it would be Boone. Because of some computer shenanigans, I have just watched last weeks Lost. Boone is dead (probably)! He wasn’t my favourite character, but what a waste. There was much more that could have been done with him. Much more. I’m not certain how it was murder. It was an accident; Locke could not have climbed up to the plane by himself (and I’m sure he would have, if he could). Does Jack believe Boone was attacked? Or does he believe that Boone might have lived if he’d known about what caused his injuries immediately? It’s interesting that the Island seemed to arrange for it to be Boone and not Locke who climbed into that plane, and that Locke was convinced going to the plane would allow the hatch to be opened. Was Boone a sacrifice to the Island, allowing access for Locke? *shiver* In the interests of being evil, I have put together a Lost death list. Boone isn’t quite at the top. Well, it passes the time until next week. ;D Walt Shannon Boone Michael Sun Charlie Jin Sayid Hurley Claire Sawyer Kate Jack Locke
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Post by Lola m on Apr 16, 2005 10:56:54 GMT -5
Because of some computer shenanigans, I have just watched last weeks Lost. Boone is dead (probably)! He wasn’t my favourite character, but what a waste. There was much more that could have been done with him. Much more. I’m not certain how it was murder. It was an accident; Locke could not have climbed up to the plane by himself (and I’m sure he would have, if he could). Does Jack believe Boone was attacked? Or does he believe that Boone might have lived if he’d known about what caused his injuries immediately? It’s interesting that the Island seemed to arrange for it to be Boone and not Locke who climbed into that plane, and that Locke was convinced going to the plane would allow the hatch to be opened. Was Boone a sacrifice to the Island, allowing access for Locke? *shiver* In the interests of being evil, I have put together a Lost death list. Boone isn’t quite at the top. Well, it passes the time until next week. ;D Walt Shannon Boone Michael Sun Charlie Jin Sayid Hurley Claire Sawyer Kate Jack Locke Wow. The idea that the island took away Locke's legs just so that he couldn't climb up to the plane - so that it wouldbe Boone instead? Is really interesting and scary! **shiver shiver!** Boone as the sacrifice that allows Locke to continue his special relationship with the island. Wow! Lola
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Post by Riff on Apr 17, 2005 13:47:37 GMT -5
Wow. The idea that the island took away Locke's legs just so that he couldn't climb up to the plane - so that it wouldbe Boone instead? Is really interesting and scary! **shiver shiver!** Boone as the sacrifice that allows Locke to continue his special relationship with the island. Wow! Lola *smiles* Nothing just happens on that Island, IMO. Everything seems to be working toward a larger goal of some sort, and the characters lives and personalities are parts of that. It won’t be long before we see where this is all leading (I hope). Oh, no! More puppets! ;D
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Post by Riff on Apr 17, 2005 13:52:23 GMT -5
I love your review, Patti. I especially admire the way you bring in Jack’s back story (not just from this ep) and weave it into the themes of the events on the Island. I also liked the flashes of insight. We may not have seen the last of Boone (one imagines he will be there in flashbacks, at least), but I also doubt he will return. One never knows, though. It’s very interesting that you think of Boone as Locke’s Renfield. Of all fictional pairings, that one wouldn’t have occurred to me. I can see what you mean, though I would probably think of Locke as the Island’s Renfield. It’s playing him, just as his father did. Eetah, BTW, on the idea that one new life does not replace another. My own theory is that Locke was paralysed when he deliberately crashed into his father’s car, killing him. Something like that, anyway. It seems fairly obvious that the odd paternal triangle with Locke, Jake, and Michael in part stems from Locke’s experiences – I wonder if patricide is in the mix? I think it is. Just what chance did Boone have with serious multiple injuries and little or no medical facilities? The reasoning part of Jack must have known that Boone’s survival was very unlikely. You’re quite right; he expects, demands, miracles of himself. And yet, as you suggest, Charlie is only alive because Jack expects so much of himself and cannot let go. Hmmm. Boone’s death was for a reason. Hopefully, we’ll find out what that is soon. Too true! I had a Jacob’s Ladder moment when the baby was placed in her arms. I imagined it turning to her and saying (possibly in Boone’s voice), “Dream on.” ;D I actually feel a bit sorry for Locke. I know that smile of his is a little Mephistophelian, but he seems to be just as much a victim as everyone else. The only thing (the only thing he had any power over, anyway) that he did wrong was to say that Boone had sustained his injuries from falling off a cliff. I wonder why he did that? Why not just say they’d found a wrecked plane? I think Jack will learn about the hatch next week. Why didn’t Locke share that with Jack in the first place? He did say to the Island that he’d done everything it had asked him…
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Post by Jan on Apr 18, 2005 14:10:37 GMT -5
Finally got a chance to read your review, Patti, and I'm so glad.
I don't have the kind of insightful comments to make that the others have, but to me your analysis was right on and as usual you are SO entertaining in the way you present it.
I haven't read the whole thread for this ep, but am I the only one who thinks Jack lost his wife in childbirth, or that she died while pregnant? I'm harking back to the way he went ballistic when he found out that the woman his father killed in the OR was pregnant.
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Post by Karen on Apr 18, 2005 18:33:18 GMT -5
Finally got a chance to read your review, Patti, and I'm so glad. I don't have the kind of insightful comments to make that the others have, but to me your analysis was right on and as usual you are SO entertaining in the way you present it. I haven't read the whole thread for this ep, but am I the only one who thinks Jack lost his wife in childbirth, or that she died while pregnant? I'm harking back to the way he went ballistic when he found out that the woman his father killed in the OR was pregnant. Oh, good thought, Winter. It would explain why he got so upset and why he no longer wore a wedding ring. Or maybe his wife had a baby and he couldn't save it from dying. There is a lot of father/child/father interaction throughout the series, so it makes sense that a baby might be in his picture, too.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jun 2, 2006 15:42:42 GMT -5
Excellent makeshift surgery. Not so much with the people skills
Ah, this is Jack's wedding.
I am going to save you.
Claire liking Sawyer? Ew.
Too many cooks already
This is like Northern Exposure with the Doctor and his common sense assistant
And then there was Jack. And he promised he would fix me. Because that's the kind of person that he is.
Jack, my hero. Except what happens when he can't do it?
Bet poor Hurley wishes he still had batteries for his discman
Thought for a moment it was the whispering again. but, it's just Claire in labor
Kate knows about labor?
No needles. Maybe it's too bad that Charlie was a snorter and not an injector
Are you lost?
Aw, that's so sweet. Too bad it's going to be ruined
Nobody knows their bloodtype. True dat.
Clever Sun comes through once again
Jack's bloodtype is O-
Jack can play the piano
Gah! Who is this?
Worried about dad showing up. And possibly ruining the wedding
Jin counted the contractions before he left?
Promise of Jack. Jack as a promise, not a person.
Now Jack knows about the plane and the hatch. If he believes Boone.
Hopes, not expectations
Lemme guess, Jin knows how to deliver a baby.
Something crushed his leg. So he knows.
You're looking kinda goth. Hee.
And dad shows up. And starts drinking.
What lame, sappy vows. But they're hers. So I feel better.
Actual fatherly advice. Somewhat redeems himself retroactively.
Committment is what makes you tick, Jack. The problem is, you're not just good at letting go.
Ah, they're going to amputate? I could see this going terribly, terribly wrong.
It's not going to want me. Sniff.
This baby has all of us. It's takes a village. Sort of a scary prospect for the baby actually.
Jin stopping Charlie. HEE!!
Coughing up blood. That's never good.
Don't tell me what I can't do! Echoing Locke. Is it any wonder that they keep butting heads?
Why is the minister guy wearing a wreath of leaves?
Ah, the I didn't write any vows trick.
I didn't fix you; you fixed me. Hmm... Survey says on how successful this marriage will be?
I'm letting you off the hook.
What does it say about his obsession to save a lost cause from dying rather than helping Claire deliver her baby?
Aw... also a huge, not at all reddish and wrinkly newborn
Charlie and Jin hugging. Hee.
Tell Shannon...what? Jeez.
I never thought much of the actress, but she does a good job here when Shannon breaks down over Boone's body.
Is he going to start drinking?
He didn't die. He was murdered. Ya might want to explain more before ya take off there.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jun 2, 2006 16:38:14 GMT -5
Hi all! I'm late to the party again! I am soooo far from caught up on the main board. But I really, really miss you guys, so I can't resist posting here. (Bestest wishes & *hugs* to all! I will read all your postings for the past month someday. Of course, I am still working on my Christmas 2004 to do list, so the "someday" is ... not so much defined. ) I really liked everyone's posts. Even the ones that disagree. Someone always comes up with things I didn't know and things that make me think. (And things that make me laugh -- I'm talkin' to you, you zombie & South Park posters. *snerk*) ((Spring)) And I have to say I really enjoy the stream-of-consciousness posts. It's so much fun figuring out after the fact which scene you all were talking about. Can I just say that finding S3 really makes watching a show 10 times more fun. Thank you all! Miscellaneous random thoughts: 'Kay, Boone wasn't exactly my favorite character, but dayum. Shannen is probably my least favorite character, but her quiet, solitary grieving still makes me cry, even as I type this. (I'm such a wuss.) Yay Sun, for helping both Jack & Boone in more ways than one. Yay Jin! I think this marks the first time that he became a member of the larger group, and not just the Korean-language group or the let's-build-a-raft-to-get-the-hell-outta-here group. With increasing English language comprehension. And thanks to the crises and the needs of others, he finally gets to speak at to Sun. Yay Sawyer, for keeping his asshat quotient to a minimum. And he was way less selfish this week: offering Claire some fish, sympathizing with Jin, giving up his supply of alcohol to Kate without hesitation, etc. I really liked Hurley's line to Jack: You're looking kinda goth. The title of the episode is "Do No Harm," but when Jack is treating Boone to save his life, he does many, many things that hurt Boone: stab him with a knitting needle to re-inflate his lung, run a needle and thread through his chest to close it up, yank his leg into re-alignment, and eventually, attempt to cut his leg off in order to better his chances to live. As Rachael pointed out, this last would be harm, not treatment. Thanks to Sun and Boone, Jack doesn't step over the line here. But did Jack step over the line by going through with his marriage? What happened to that marriage anyway? Me, I think it's long over. It was pre-tattoo, since there was no tattoo when Jack was wearing that tank-top in the clip-on/tie scene. And he doesn't seem to have a ring tan-line, either. Sarah's calling Jack her hero -- Is she Locke? Jack reversed her paralysis, just as the Island reversed Locke's -- against all odds, sounded like. Hmmm. What was their marriage like while it lasted? I'm in the Jack as admirable camp. During this episode, anyway. Eetah with Sara and Gail about how much pressure he was under. I know I would be way beyond cranky if the urgent demands piled up the way they did here. And an especial Eetah with Matthew about how Jack took his father's "lessons" and transmuted them into something humane. I tend to agree with Rachael, Pixi & Anne about their birth scene comments. I don't believe that Locke is a murderer. And I think that Boone is responsible for choosing the risk of staying on the plane, despite the warning creaks. But when Locke decided to leave the caves, he was all about his own pain and loss of faith. He did not consider how he could help Jack to help Boone. There were too many examples of people helping others despite their own pain and fear to allow me to gloss over Locke's absence in this episode. Sooo: All the various commitments here -- clip-on or tie? My opinions (Please feel free to argue! Some of these are off-the-cuff.) - Locke's commitment to Boone: clip-on -- once he carried Boone to the caves, he left to deal with his own pain
- Boone's commitment to Locke: tie -- he followed and listened and revealed a painful truth about himself and carried Locke when he could no longer walk
- Claire's commitment to the baby: tie -- she decided to push
- The group's commitment to the baby: we'll see once he gets back from Q'uartoth -- ooops! Wrong show. clip-on -- some will panic if the baby does something "special"
- Jin's commitment to Sun: tie -- he's so hurt that he can barely look at her, but he *cares*
- Sun's commitment to Jin: clip-on -- until they speak the same language
- Jack's commitment to Sarah: clip-on -- I'm sorry, but there were too many parallels between his marriage and a dying Boone. And were his vows really vows?: "I love you so much. And I always will." Jack's hesitation & delivery made them sound more like good-bye words than marriage promises to me.
- Shannen's commitment to Sayid: clip-on -- I think her feelings for Boone will strongly affect Shanyid.
- Sayid's commitment to Shannen: clip-on -- only hopes, not expectations. Uh huh.
- Boone's commitment to Shannen: tie -- his last thoughts were for her
- Shannen's commitment to Boone: tie -- I believe his death will haunt her forever
- Jack's commitment to saving lives: tie -- gives his own blood to Boone
- Jack's commitment to being the Leader: clip-on -- has done some things that have hurt the group at large -- and seems to be planning to do more in that vein.
- Jin's commitment to the group at large: tie -- responds to foreign-language distress calls, despite the near-lynching a few eps ago.
- Sun's commitment to healing: tie -- she helps just 'cause she can
- Hurley's commitment to the group: tie -- he helps just 'cause he can
- Locke's commitment to the Island: tie -- it gave him his legs back and something to believe in. It is alive to him
- Locke's commitment to the group: clip-on -- IMO, he helps others when it doesn't interfere with his purpose.
YMMV! (Ooooh! Listiness! Thanks to sunworshipper & Sue back in the VM thread for the idea!) Linda, zowie, intense episode P.S. But Hawaii still pretty. I really like the tie/clip-on speculations, Linda! Well done.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jun 2, 2006 16:43:35 GMT -5
Since this episode seems to be bringing up a lot of discussion about Jack's character, so I thought I'd comment on that.
I love Jack (as a character, though also, rwoar!), because: doctor, perfectionist.
So it's more of an identifying thing. I *get* him, with all his strengths and weaknesses.
Also, I don't think anybody here has mentioned this, and this is hardly a subject I know a lot about, but what about the effect that growing up with an alcoholic father has had? I'm thinking there's got to be some connection with Jack's obsession with "fixing" everything.
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