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Post by Lola m on Oct 26, 2006 12:09:55 GMT -5
You know, I was thinking about that remark of his last night as I was trying to fall asleep. And the thing of it is... I don't think that's true. 'Cause if Jack really, truly didn't give a rat's ass about making Juliet feel better, then why say anything to her at all? Why not let the belief that if she'd gotten Jack there sooner then her friend would still be alive gnaw at Juliet for the rest of her days? Merely telling her Colleen was dead before she was even put on the table was, in and of itself, a statement with no other purpose than to make her feel better--whether Jack wants to admit it or not. Granted, he was only sharing the truth, but it was a comforting truth nonetheless. Or, put it this way: do you think Sawyer would have told Juliet her friend was beyond saving before Juliet even started trying to help her? Most likely not, because Sawyer would know the value of letting Juliet feel that guilt--it would most likely exacerbate Juliet's issues with Ben, as eventually she'd blame him for not bringing/allowing Jack in to help her to begin with. Which in turn would make her more sympathetic towards Jack. And so what if it meant Juliet was miserable and filled with self-hatred day in and day out? It's every man for himself, right? But Jack didn't--or couldn't--let her go on thinking she could have saved her friend, and hating herself for not doing so, when it wasn't true. He still has an innate sense of decency towards people, even when they've wronged him--to the point where, when Juliet asked him the $25,000 question, he again was honest with her when he could have easily used that moment to start winning her over to his side. And now I'm running on at the keyboard, so I think I'll stop right there.  All of this, though, assumes that Jack is always thinking of the manipulation game when he's talking to people (even people holding him captive) the way Sawyer is. He doesn't strike me as complex in that way - he probably just told the truth because it was the first thing that sprang to his mind. **nods** |
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 26, 2006 13:09:27 GMT -5
He's reading "Of Mice and Men". Heeee! How fitting, with the whole bunny theme. And then there's the oh so perfect shot of the two of them walking down the corrider. ;D Yup. There's the con - make the mark think he's convincing you. Sawyer being cowed is what scares Kate. Kate being hurt is what scares Sawyer. She tells him she just said she loved him to get the guy to stop hitting him and breaks back into her cage. Well. They're all nicely jumping through the Others' hoops. "Danny can wait" to kill Sawyer, eh? Oh, yeah. This is a real democratic community alright. And Benry is not the boss of anyone.  Benry wants Jack to sit with which "her"? The body, or Juliette? 'Cuz I don't think sitting with a body will bother him. "I don't care about making you feel better."  Sometimes I really love Jack. <snipped> You know, I was thinking about that remark of his last night as I was trying to fall asleep. And the thing of it is... I don't think that's true. 'Cause if Jack really, truly didn't give a rat's ass about making Juliet feel better, then why say anything to her at all? Why not let the belief that if she'd gotten Jack there sooner then her friend would still be alive gnaw at Juliet for the rest of her days? Merely telling her Colleen was dead before she was even put on the table was, in and of itself, a statement with no other purpose than to make her feel better--whether Jack wants to admit it or not. Granted, he was only sharing the truth, but it was a comforting truth nonetheless. Or, put it this way: do you think Sawyer would have told Juliet her friend was beyond saving before Juliet even started trying to help her? Most likely not, because Sawyer would know the value of letting Juliet feel that guilt--it would most likely exacerbate Juliet's issues with Ben, as eventually she'd blame him for not bringing/allowing Jack in to help her to begin with. Which in turn would make her more sympathetic towards Jack. And so what if it meant Juliet was miserable and filled with self-hatred day in and day out? It's every man for himself, right? But Jack didn't--or couldn't--let her go on thinking she could have saved her friend, and hating herself for not doing so, when it wasn't true. He still has an innate sense of decency towards people, even when they've wronged him--to the point where, when Juliet asked him the $25,000 question, he again was honest with her when he could have easily used that moment to start winning her over to his side. And now I'm running on at the keyboard, so I think I'll stop right there. I think Jack is the sort of person who just isn't mean enough to let a person believe a gut-wrenching falsehood, when he knows better. I think when he tells Juliet it isn't about "caring how she feels," though, I think he means it. It isn't about "caring how she feels," it's about being an upright person and caring how HE HIMSELF feels, about himself. I think I would do the same as Jack, even for persons I dislike very much, and don't trust, etc. I would do it to feel right about who I am, to be true to myself. |
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Post by Rob on Oct 26, 2006 17:53:15 GMT -5
I'm still mad they shot Trixie. You don't shoot Trixie. (Trixie is the character from Deadwood and this actress whose name I don't know right now will always be Trixie to me) I was surprised to see that, too. They'd better hope Al never gets wind of this. |
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Post by Vlad on Oct 27, 2006 7:17:46 GMT -5
Well, at least we've finally established that Sawyer has strong feelings for Kate, he's not just conning her, and that Kate reciprocates. And Sawyer actually had enough decency to set up money for a child who may or may not be his, with no way to get any credit in return.
Oh yeah... Sawyer. .the ultimate reluctant hero! I wish I knew what my 400 American Lit professor would think of this series and this character. He was very big into the "myth of american men" in my lit. Sing it, sister! Yup... I was rather non-plussed by a lot of things like that this episode. As much as I didn't want to see the pacemaker be in Sawyer, I really hoped they might surprise me. And hey, who knows, later on, Jack mighta been able to remove it. Would have made for a tense episode. Lotsa trust issues... yup! [/color][/quote] Yes, I enjoyed Henry getting punched. And I don't think the "distance" is so much the issue as the fact that the waters are shark infested jsut like on the original Alcatraz. A fact that Sawyer knows VERY well. At least they aren't freezing. Vlad |
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Post by Rachael on Oct 27, 2006 8:28:56 GMT -5
Yes, I enjoyed Henry getting punched. And I don't think the "distance" is so much the issue as the fact that the waters are shark infested jsut like on the original Alcatraz. A fact that Sawyer knows VERY well. At least they aren't freezing. Vlad Actually, that's an oft-repeated myth, the sharks. There are no maneating sharks in the Bay. The sharks off Alcatraz are mostly leopard sharks, which are not man eaters, but scavengers that eat stuff that's already dead. The reason people didn't escape from Alcatraz was the current/undertow, which is apt to make you food for the scavengers anyway, and the fact that prisoners tend to be really unfit. There's an annual race here called the "Escape From Alcatraz Triathlon", and hundreds of people make that swim every year, nowadays. It's interesting, that shark myth...most people think the prison guards themselves started it. |
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Post by Sara on Oct 27, 2006 8:45:57 GMT -5
I'm still mad they shot Trixie. You don't shoot Trixie. (Trixie is the character from Deadwood and this actress whose name I don't know right now will always be Trixie to me) I was surprised to see that, too. They'd better hope Al never gets wind of this. Rob! #wavey# Good to see you.  |
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Post by Vlad on Oct 27, 2006 9:06:15 GMT -5
Yes, I enjoyed Henry getting punched. And I don't think the "distance" is so much the issue as the fact that the waters are shark infested jsut like on the original Alcatraz. A fact that Sawyer knows VERY well. At least they aren't freezing. Vlad Actually, that's an oft-repeated myth, the sharks. There are no maneating sharks in the Bay. The sharks off Alcatraz are mostly leopard sharks, which are not man eaters, but scavengers that eat stuff that's already dead. The reason people didn't escape from Alcatraz was the current/undertow, which is apt to make you food for the scavengers anyway, and the fact that prisoners tend to be really unfit. There's an annual race here called the "Escape From Alcatraz Triathlon", and hundreds of people make that swim every year, nowadays. It's interesting, that shark myth...most people think the prison guards themselves started it. I did not know this about the sharks! Thanks. Still, there is at least one really vicious shark with the DHARMA logo on it swimming in the island's waters. I wouldn't want to even think about making that swim. Vlad |
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Post by Rachael on Oct 27, 2006 9:39:44 GMT -5
Actually, that's an oft-repeated myth, the sharks. There are no maneating sharks in the Bay. The sharks off Alcatraz are mostly leopard sharks, which are not man eaters, but scavengers that eat stuff that's already dead. The reason people didn't escape from Alcatraz was the current/undertow, which is apt to make you food for the scavengers anyway, and the fact that prisoners tend to be really unfit. There's an annual race here called the "Escape From Alcatraz Triathlon", and hundreds of people make that swim every year, nowadays. It's interesting, that shark myth...most people think the prison guards themselves started it. I did not know this about the sharks! Thanks. Still, there is at least one really vicious shark with the DHARMA logo on it swimming in the island's waters. I wouldn't want to even think about making that swim. Vlad Well, yeah. Just 'cause we don't have sharks doesn't mean they don't. They clearly have at least one biggish aggressive shark.... |
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Post by leftylady on Oct 28, 2006 11:57:28 GMT -5
Ok. We see another island, but …. When the Others force marched our Losties to their captivity site, even if they were blindfolded part of the time, unless they could sense being put on a boat or going into tunnels, or being knocked unconscious for a time, could they have been transported? What if it is all a big mind game and they are still on the original Lostie island and the one in the distance is the “other” (Others’?) island? leftylady, who watches too many mystery shows  |
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 28, 2006 12:40:36 GMT -5
Ok. We see another island, but …. When the Others force marched our Losties to their captivity site, even if they were blindfolded part of the time, unless they could sense being put on a boat or going into tunnels, or being knocked unconscious for a time, could they have been transported? What if it is all a big mind game and they are still on the original Lostie island and the one in the distance is the “other” (Others’?) island? leftylady, who watches too many mystery shows Hmm... very possible, considering. They were knocked out, for whatever that's worth, because Jack suddenly woke up in the aquarium, Sawyer suddenly woke up in the zoo, and Kate suddenly woke up in the locker room. |
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Post by KMInfinity on Oct 28, 2006 13:38:21 GMT -5
Ok. We see another island, but …. When the Others force marched our Losties to their captivity site, even if they were blindfolded part of the time, unless they could sense being put on a boat or going into tunnels, or being knocked unconscious for a time, could they have been transported? What if it is all a big mind game and they are still on the original Lostie island and the one in the distance is the “other” (Others’?) island? leftylady, who watches too many mystery shows I thought exactly the same thing. They seemed so desperate for the sailboat that I don't think they could be in a situation where they have regular cummuting from island to island. So I was thinking that it's just another con and the island Sawyer was shown is an island that none of the characters we know can get to. (Okay, the underground subway is a possibility I guess.) This was one of those episodes that produced more questions than answers. The biggest question in my mind after this episode has to do with why Kate re-entered the cage. Made me wonder again about some spec from two weeks ago that she's really an Other or a special agent. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 28, 2006 19:40:31 GMT -5
Ok. We see another island, but …. When the Others force marched our Losties to their captivity site, even if they were blindfolded part of the time, unless they could sense being put on a boat or going into tunnels, or being knocked unconscious for a time, could they have been transported? What if it is all a big mind game and they are still on the original Lostie island and the one in the distance is the “other” (Others’?) island? leftylady, who watches too many mystery shows I thought exactly the same thing. They seemed so desperate for the sailboat that I don't think they could be in a situation where they have regular cummuting from island to island. So I was thinking that it's just another con and the island Sawyer was shown is an island that none of the characters we know can get to. (Okay, the underground subway is a possibility I guess.) This was one of those episodes that produced more questions than answers. The biggest question in my mind after this episode has to do with why Kate re-entered the cage. Made me wonder again about some spec from two weeks ago that she's really an Other or a special agent. I thought they wanted to ge the sailboat not so much because they needed it (they don't they already have at least one boat that we have seen) but because they didn't want the Losties to discover their homebase. I remember Ben saying something like "we have to get that sailboat; we don't want them to find us." (very bad paraphrase) So, my feeling is that Ben is telling the truth about the second island, and that yeah - Kate, Sawyer, and Jack must have been knocked out for the boat journey from one island to the other. |
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Post by KMInfinity on Oct 29, 2006 20:47:40 GMT -5
I remember Ben saying something like "we have to get that sailboat; we don't want them to find us." (very bad paraphrase) Okay I DO remember that now. Wanting the sailboat to keep the Losties in the dark. So probably the Others do have easy transport back and forth between the two islands. So the Others' Wisteria Lane is on the same island as our Losties but the prison is on the 2nd island? Can we name the islands? To keep them clear.  |
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 29, 2006 20:56:58 GMT -5
I remember Ben saying something like "we have to get that sailboat; we don't want them to find us." (very bad paraphrase) Okay I DO remember that now. Wanting the sailboat to keep the Losties in the dark. So probably the Others do have easy transport back and forth between the two islands. So the Others' Wisteria Lane is on the same island as our Losties but the prison is on the 2nd island? Can we name the islands? To keep them clear. I think that the Losties Island is where the Losties live. I don't think the Others live there. I think that the Others Island is where the Others have their "suburban paradise" and where they have Kate, Jack & Sawyer imprisoned. We probably could use some better names for the two islands, to keep conversation clear, and just for fun, too . . . |
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 29, 2006 21:15:17 GMT -5
Okay I DO remember that now. Wanting the sailboat to keep the Losties in the dark. So probably the Others do have easy transport back and forth between the two islands. So the Others' Wisteria Lane is on the same island as our Losties but the prison is on the 2nd island? Can we name the islands? To keep them clear. I think that the Losties Island is where the Losties live. I don't think the Others live there. I think that the Others Island is where the Others have their "suburban paradise" and where they have Kate, Jack & Sawyer imprisoned. We probably could use some better names for the two islands, to keep conversation clear, and just for fun, too . . . Hell and Heaven? Alcatraz and Bali Hai? Upper and Lower Limbo? |
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