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Post by Dalton on Jul 8, 2003 16:11:28 GMT -5
I wonder how the sock is secured on? Anyone care to speculate?
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jul 8, 2003 16:12:10 GMT -5
Miss Pamela:
I tried to send you email, but Yahoo is having some kind of problems today and my email keeps being "temporarily inaccessible."
So, FYI - missent tape arrived and is being returned as soon as I get to the Post Office today - along with some extras for the trouble you've gone to.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 8, 2003 16:12:39 GMT -5
Nan: Great analysis, especially the spot-on Tara/Spike comparisons. I would add that much of the reason Willow went totally nuts at Tara's death was a sense of guilt she didn't (and maybe has yet to) recognize. She was a lot like Spike. He knew he had hurt and upset Buffy when he attacked her, but he couldn't even identify what was "squirming in his head" afterward (I think it was guilt).
I would disagree on one point - that Spike "knows he's not loved". He often seemed pretty convinced that she DID love him. She only says "I don't love you" once to him - she is walking away and has her back to him. He's perched above her on the cemetary gate. I forget the episode, but he makes a comment like "the hell you don't" or some such thing indicating he thinks she's in denial.
Right before the attempted rape, he claims that he knows she loves him, and he's going to get her to see that too.
I think he goes back and forth on this - in a realistic way for someone like him, in his situation. One minute he's morose and hurt and sure he's not loved, the next minute he knows he is loved but she just won't see it.
Personally, I read Buffy as being very very emotionally attached to Spike in Season 6. She was constantly seeking him out, seemed to miss him when it was over, and was so jealous at the wedding, etc. It was a kind of love, though very twisted up for both parties. Neither one loved the other in a mature, "real, solid, mature" way.
I would go so far as to say they loved one another in almost exactly the same way - an obsessive, needy way. The difference was that Spike was willing to cop to it, and Buffy wasn't.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 8, 2003 16:13:18 GMT -5
I have season 6 on CD (not DVD). I can only play it on computer but I don't know how to lift an image off the disk and post it. Wrecked is the only glimpse there is of the sock unless there's some bootleg snapshot floating around somewhere.
Rusty Goode
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Post by Dalton on Jul 8, 2003 16:13:52 GMT -5
deborah asks: "I wonder how the sock is secured on? Anyone care to speculate?"
OK . . .
Velcro - with one side glued to his body, the other to the sock? A set for the front and a set for the back?
Some very thin, transparent string over his hips?
A really tight fit?
Or . . .
Saliva?
That's all I got.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jul 8, 2003 16:17:02 GMT -5
I think the entire arc of Xander/Anya has some similarities that were resolved this season in Selfless. Whatever meaning there was in Anya's life was attached to Xander....she really had no self worth to draw on.
Xander, on the other hand, was desperately trying to break away from the shadow of his self-loathing by asking Anya to marry him, impulsively and without regard to the consequences.
Anya was ill-equipped to handle Xander's eventual rejection because she really had no sense of self. She has a "soul", but she has no clue what it means. Spike had a much more developed sense of morality before he went out and retrieved his.
In other words we have all three main Scoobies doing irresponsible things to their significant others, and each of those three reacting in completely different ways. Tara's is clearly the most mature, and I'd say it's because she'd been a victim for so much of her life that she wasn't going to stand for it with someone who meant as much to her as Willow.
Spike and Anya, on the other hand, blindly reach for whatever is familiar to them. Both had a dark past to revert to, and for a short while they did. It never really occurred to me at the time, but Spike and Anya reaching out to one another in the Magic Box-albeit in a drunken state-was a natural pairing for that moment. They recognized their similarities without actually verbalizing them.
It's natural that Spike went about retrieving his soul before Anya's conscience kicked in. Spike had a sensitive human past to draw on...every indication given in Selfless is that Anya did not.
There is a certain hypocrisy to Buffy and Xander's initial reactions to their former lovers' behavior. Spike and Anya were vicious demons that were partially redeemed by the affections of the former Zeppo and the Slayer. When they were rejected, through no fault of their own, the monsters were briefly recreated. Watching Buffy and Xander debate whether or not Spike or Anya deserve to die is rather ridiculous considering that THEY are the ones partially responsible.
Rob Sorenson
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 12:41:06 GMT -5
Thanks Watergal! I've been made so welcome here - it feels great.
BTW, I went to the website last night again and read the latest of Spring's episode analysis - Passion. Spring, you are such a talented writer. I get new insights from each installment. Plus, I lOVE the 'extras' you point out for Spike lovers at the end.
I'm going to go read some fanfic at the site in a few minutes. I've gotten into a bad habit of logging on late at night (early morning) and at that time I can't think well enough to read stories, and I've been wanting to get into a couple of them.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 12:41:45 GMT -5
I have read that they have to do each scene multiple times, with different cameras and angles (because they don't know which they will use finally) and I expect that there is not really time to be putting on and taking off robes between takes - I think its hours and hours of repeating...and my imagination is going over time now so I think I'll just stop...
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 12:42:22 GMT -5
Great Post, Nan. I think you captured each character in season 6 really well.
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 12:42:57 GMT -5
Which episode? I didn't see diaper or sock in any of them.
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 12:43:30 GMT -5
I have all the eps on tape. I'll re-view Wrecked (what a hardship) and check it out. Thanks!
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 12:44:24 GMT -5
HA HA! Saliva! I pick that one! Oh dear, poor James. It's a good thing he doesn't like computers - although I'm sure he gets shown at least a representative portion of the stuff that's said about him.
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 12:45:29 GMT -5
Robert, Reading your post gave me an anxious thought...if Spike and Anya are/have been kind of duplicating their responses to things (and I agree) then it makes me worry about the future of Spike and Buffy, since Anya and Xander tried to re-kindle their romance in 'Storyteller' and decided that it was over now. Also, Willow has let go of Tara and accepted Kennedy (Willow, you idiot) - this better not be played out again with Spike and Buffy! That would really tick me off. I've invested a great deal of angst and emotion in that relationship!
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 12:46:16 GMT -5
Thanks, Spring. Praise from the praiseworthy is praise indeed. I tentatively agree with your exceptions, at least as far as knowing that Spike knows Buffy feels something, and it's not just revulsion. Quite likely he does view it as love, to the degree he himself understands love at that point. I guess that constitutes full agreement, since it's not as if he's not projecting up a storm himself--just a different thing he's projecting onto Buffy than Buffy is projecting onto him.
Examining another facet, I suspect the *style* of his protectiveness of Buffy, his willingness to go along with just about anything she seems to want, and quite a bit of his "provokingness" (not a word, but it will do)is a holdover from his relationship with Dru, who certainly blew hot and cold and was, as an insane seeress, beyond all rational understanding (by someone else). Anybody see any other similarities with how Spike relates to Buffy and to either of the other two women we see in his life, Drusilla and Harmony? Heck, throw in the Buffybot for good measure.
Nan Dibble
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 12:47:31 GMT -5
I get peeved whenever I think about Xander and Buffy's confrontation in that episode. When Xander lets her have it, he makes a critical point that is at least part of the theme for season 7. Buffy is again distancing herself from everyone because she is the law....she is superior to them because she's had to sacrifice so much. She then makes reference to the killing of Angel.
Apparently Buffy believes that the sacrifice she had to make regarding him is more important than everyone elses, and thereby gives her the right to decide everyone else's fate too. She talks out of both sides of her mouth with Xander, acknowledging that every situation is different, then proceeding to handle this one the exact same way.
She then proclaims herself the law because in the end it all comes down to her. WRONG! It has not and will never all come down to just her. News flash, Buff: every Big Bad that has come down the pike since Year One would've beaten you if you were by yourself. You owe your existence to Xander and Willow as much as they do to you, and they've suffered terribly right along with you.
Buffy's two best friends have sacrificed just as much...if not more...then the Slayer. Her injuries heal virtually overnight. The others just take the pain and injuries and keep going, because they're determined to be there for her. They won't allow her to go through this alone. As I've sadi many times before, she was Chosen. Everyone around her Chose.
In Selfless her little speech about everything coming down to her would've been true for every previous Slayer...but not Buffy. Buffy was and is special because of Xander and Willow. These days Spike and Dawn can be thrown into that mix, too.
After the extraodinarily well acted scene between the three of them, Willow indeed finds an alternative solution by summoning D'Hoffryn...but yet again, Buffy is already gone with sword in hand, confident that she is the one with all the answers. Her actions are difficult for me to understand. Sometimes I think Buffy had learned from the past. Invariably she regresses when she is under stress.
Telling her friends that she has to distance herself when things are bad because it's her destiny is a cruel and arrogant thing for her to say and feel. I get angry at Buffy when she does that.
One last thing....I have a feeling that Buffy knows what Xander did and said regarding Angelus in Becoming. She's too smart to think otherwise. When Willow's spell finally worked, it was too late, of course; one way or the other Buffy had to do an unbelivably painful and heroic thing. In retrospect Buffy HAD to know that Xander was aware of Willow's actions, especially considering what Xander had said. He specifically made mention that Willow had a message, and post fight Buffy was smart enough to figure out what it really was. I think she forgave Xander because on some level she knew that his actions, however they were motivated, kept her, and by extension the world, alive.
That didn't stop her from utilizing it when she had to defend herself in Selfless, however. She needed Xander to back off, knowing full well what issue she could fall back on to get to Xander. He has his own issues over his actions that day, and I think Buffy used those issues against him. I don't believe for a second that Buffy thinks Willow said "kick his ass." Willow wouldn't say it that way, and Xander is a terrible liar, especially to Buffy. Xander can lie to himself like nobody's business, but not to Buffy or Willow.
Rob Sorenson
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