The Soulful Spike Society Part 12

[Dalton]

Welcome to the unhallowed ground of the Soulful Spike Society (SSS or 'S' cubed). Topic area devoted to Spikaholics, Spuffyites, Spike shippers of all types, plus any James Marsters information. Share your knowledge, insights, observations, speculations, or other information on our favorite character/actor in or out of any episode.

Straying off topic not a problem here. We welcome posts on any other aspect of the BtVS series also, but please, no spoilers. See also "The Soulful Spike Society" and/or "All Things Spike/James Marsters" (Parts 1-11) farther down the Miscellaneous Board. Visit our web site - The Soulful Spike Society at www.soulfulspike.com

Again Welcome!

Alexandra K.

[Dalton]

Way back When

Robert said-

"Moments, on the other hand, don't require dialogue. Moments are when the actors shine the most, when they interpret the dialogue that was presented to them. A lot of moments have no words at all. This category is a tribute to the actors. Here are a few examples of some unforgettable moments in the show's history, in no particular chronological order."

A moment I liked was in Into The Woods- Willow and Tara are on the roof stargazing- Tara inquires about the roughness of visiting the hospital bed of Buffy's direly ill mother.

Willow unable to discuss her feelings about the illness except tangentially- shrugs alightly-pulling her mouth down almost like a small girl shaking off tears. She and Tara are so gentle and there for each other- it makes me cry when Willow says the stars make her "feel like she was in space-part of the stars."

[Dalton]

Sorry- my bad

That episode with Tara/Willow stargazing was Listening to Fear, Season 5.

[Dalton]

I posted this in Part Eleven before I realized 12 was up, so I'm reposting it here.

Rusty, I promised I'd find the source of the comment I made about Sarah teasing James by pulling at his sock in the nude scenes. Voila! Here it is! And thanks to Cecilia on the Forum for Fans - James Marster - Board for giving me the source!

From James' Q and A Session at the SFX Con in Blackpool: (report by Citizen LQ)

He also laughed as he spoke of the teasing from Sarah Michelle Gellar (Buffy). During filming of season six, most of the scenes called for him to be naked or very nearly naked. "I'd go to my trailer and the wardrobe department had left my clothes for the shoot and it would be a sock. In films you can have the luxury of covering yourself before the shoot, but on TV you don't have that -- it was just 'get in there'. I'd stand there with this sock hiding things waiting to shoot the scene and Sarah would come over and tug at the sock."

Entire article here: www.cityofangel.com/behindTheScenes/bts2/sfx2002.html

Patti T.

[Dalton]

Woo Hoo! Way to go Alex! *gives her a high five* You did it!

*coughs and becomes more sedate*...errr..ummm... I mean "congratulations." It seems my work here is done. I have nothing left to teach you. So now, I msut ride into the sunset, as nothing more than a receeding fond memory of a time that once was.

Vlad

just kidding! But really, I am glad you got it posted right. I know how frustrted you were before.

[Dalton]

Many thanks, Vlad. I finally got your instructions right. Whew! I went to your old "Picture Posting Test Area" (2-8-03) to practice first, this time. Perhaps now the S'cubie web site will be visited even more. Do you have a counter on the web site somewhere? It would be fun to see the numbers mount up.

Anyway, thanks again for your consistently valuable help. Much obliged.

[Dalton]

:...when I hear somebody is a B&B fan, I kinda assume they are very likely also to be a committed Catherine/Vincent fan. ... You liked the fairy tale; I liked the realism. ... do you find any merit in equating the third season of B&B ...with sixth season of Buffy and its being widely ... disliked, given that the two shows are certainly quite different in many respects?::

Actually, Nan, I don't. I loved the BTVS 6 and hated B&B 3. To me it was apples and carburators. I found BTVS6 showed the hard realism of dealing with both the post-trauma reaction and the difficulties of growing up and being on your own for the first time. B&B3 seemed forced and artificial by comparison.

I'm reading this after the new board has appeared, so I'm going to put it in both places.

Diane U

[Dalton]

Okay folks, I haven't been able to catch up yet, I'm only up to post # 220 (Part 11), and I have to head off to work. I tell you, it is really hard to be S'cubieless all day. (We are in class training for the next three months and the Patent office has some pretty powerful firewalls on their computers. I may be able to hack through at lunchtime though. I'll give it a shot.)

The discussion I've missed seems so interesting.... *sniff* Hopefully I'll catch up soon.

Missing my S'cubies already... (Welcome Patti!)

Watergal

[Dalton]

OK, Diane, it's plain that I somehow haven't communicated well. I didn't ask if you personally liked B&B Season 3, since you'd already made it clear that you did not. What I was trying to get at is the disjunction between what the writers were putting out and what a sizeable proportion of the fandom felt they'd been led to expect, posed to one who, like me, was familiar with both the series in question. I was trying/hoping to discuss fandom reactions and the relationship between a series' writers and its fans, and why it sometimes seems to go wrong. But I see this is still so charged a subject that it's best to let it drop. My fault for persisting. Thanks for responding anyway.

Nan Dibble

[Dalton]

I give Sarah a lot of credit. She had nothing handed to her. But it is a lot different being a kid going through tough times, than being the adult who is responsible and in charge.

Buffy went through trauma prior to Season 6, but the big difference was she still had her mom and Giles, and her friends to talk to. It made sense that she grieved, but was still able to more-or-less hold it together.

In Season 6, it was a much different story. Mom & Giles were gone; she couldn't talk to her friends because they were the ones she mostly had a lot of anger toward; she had heavy responsibility with no one to take any load off.

That's the part Sarah "doesn't get." And again, this isn't meant as a criticism. It is normal and natural at her age, and she's a wonderful actor.

But I see nothing wrong with discussing our reactions to that article, which, for some us, included the observation that SMG didn't seem to understand what Buffy was going through.

While it's true that some people never really understand that kind of thing, I would venture to guess a smart, tough cookie like Sarah will continue to grow and mature, and will one day look back more appreciatively at that Season. I've heard actors make that kind of comment before - that when they were filming something as a young person, they didn't like it and argued about it, but now they get it and are so proud of the work, etc.

Spring Summers

[Dalton]

not that I have anything against James naked, but why can't the poor man have a robe?

Lucky SMG....

Witchy Willow

[Dalton]

I agree, Spring. It can be a matter of personality what one can identify with or imagine, or it can be a matter of maturity, or some combination of the two. Often I return to things I didn't initially care for and find them rich and involving the second time around. My initial reaction to the first episode of Buffy I chanced across was negative. Same with that daft movie, *Time Bandits.* Sometimes things are just too radically different to be taken in at once, or in small sips; you have to swallow the whole thing, willingly, before you can absorb any of it.

In a recent interview Derek Jacobi, an actor I've been very fond of since his *I, Claudius* series many years ago, remarked that he believes he has a *Lear* in him somewhere but feels he's not yet had quite enough experience to attempt it. I think I can understand that.

Another factor, for an actor, would be the part vs. the whole, I think: they might understand their own role well enough to play it but be blinded to the forest by the up-close and personal tree. They might be unable to take in the whole dynamic to which they were contributing, that only one with more objectivity could see or appreciate. This may be a factor with SMG and 6th season, I think. The strength of it is Willow's bumpy decline, Spike's mingled joy and despair at becoming so close with Buffy and yet remaining so far away, Xander's dead-ending in fear of becoming his father and final reaffirmation of who he is, Dawn's frantic flailing for attention/recognition, Tara's tolerant, kind understanding and absolute refusal to tolerate deceit or self-deception--all of it. The whole tapestry. The whole mosaic that, from too close a perspective, is just a bunch of colored dots, not a complete picture.

At least WE get it, which is what's important.

Nan Dibble

[Dalton]

Thanks Patti for finding that reference. Tugging at a guy's sock inplies a certain amount of comfort with the whole "rolling around with him nearly naked" thing. Just how big are these socks anyway? If you pause the episode it looks more like a diaper than a sock.

Rusty Goode

[Dalton]

I read a quote somewhere, where James also mentioned that Sarah would tickle him between takes when he was wearing only that sock. I'll see if I can find that quote, but probably won't have time for much websurfing today.

Yes, I'd say they must be pretty comfortable with each other. He has said a lot of nice things about her, and what little I've seen as far as her comments about him have always been positive.

Sarah sure has a tough job. Why can't I get paid for rolling around with and tickling a nearly nude James Marsters, and pulling on his sock. Instead, I must settle for pretending to listen to accountants and using my imagination.

Spring Summers

[Dalton]

It occurs to me that Spike and Tara face similar situations in season 6, and the different reactions and outcomes define who they are.

Tara refuses to accept being abused in the name of love: Willow's making her forget their quarrel for the sake of at least surface harmony. First she walks out, and she stays away, holding to her principles for quite a while. Eventually she's drawn back by her own love and by Willow's plain need of her and unhappiness without her. She compromises, and that's why she's in Willow's room when Warren arrives in his murderous, indiscriminate rage. In a very real way, her capitulation leads to her death.

Spike at first will settle for whatever he can get, with Buffy, including her projecting her self-hatred as abuse. Anything, as long as Buffy is with him, even to strike out against him. This comes to a head when Buffy believes she must turn herself in to the police for the murder Warren has in fact committed, and Spike goads her into pounding him mercilessly and just keeps taking it as long as it keeps her from crossing the street to the police station. He knows perfectly well that he's not loved, that he's being used as a sex aid. But he also knows that Buffy feels SOMETHING when they're together, even if it's horror, disgust, and self-loathing. Maybe he hopes that his so steadfastly loving her in any way she'll accept will eventually get through to her. Unlike Tara (at least initially) he's unwilling/unable to give up the deadly little he has for the sake of principle (he has few principles: maybe a result of lacking a soul?), unable to hold out for nothing less than love and respect in return. It's Buffy who breaks it off: he can't. He tries to accept it, as he's accepted everything else Buffy has dished out to him. But like Tara, he can't endure the separation. Tara broke off with Willow at discovering Willow had "mind raped" her; Spike's desperation pushes him into attempting a physical rape of Buffy. Willow never understands why what she did to Tara was so wrong. Spike has more insight (may I say more morality?) than that and can't tolerate what his impasse with Buffy has forced him to become and do. Unlike Willow, he takes the only action he can imagine to amend his wrong: he leaves Buffy without a word and undergoes whatever trials he has to, to get back his soul and wholly change his own nature so that he can never (he believes) do such a thing again.


Note: Willow has a functioning soul and did to Tara a real equivalent to what Spike tried to do to Buffy, and grieves only that Tara's gone: she still has no recognition of or regret for her abuse of Tara. Souls aren't the whole answer; but Spike takes his drastic action in the hope that both he and Buffy will be able to find him worthy of his own love of her, let alone any possible love she might have for him. He needs to do this for his own sake, not in any expectation he will thereby rise in her regard. At least she may be able to quit lambasting herself (and, of course, him)for having sexually sought out an "evil, soulless THING."

So both Spike and Willow commit a crime--spiritual and/or physical--against the one person they most love, failing to recognize or respect the "otherness" of that person apart from their own desires. Spike and Tara both seek to reestablish the relationship despite the abuse inherent in it--Spike before, Tara after, the pivotal incident. And both of them come to a point of no return: Spike with his inability to comprehend how he could have even attempted such a thing, Tara with her death. Only a total rebirth can be a sufficient response; only Spike gets the chance to undertake it.

Thoughts, anyone?

Nan