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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 12:48:05 GMT -5
Nan,
I like Derek Jakobi (sp?) as Brother Cadfael myself.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 12:48:46 GMT -5
Did Anya and Xander REALLY admit that it was over? I guess.....Xander's facial reactions are a little doubtful. As I've said before, he doesn't let go of love easily because of his gigantic heart.
As far as the future of Buffy and Spike goes, I couldn't claim to know where that's going. I do think there is little comparison between the actual relationships. Anya/Xander was a far more conventional and loving one than Buffy/Spike. When they ended, Anya and Spike reacted similarly...but they ended differently. Buffy and Spike really haven't had anything approaching a loving romantic relationship, so I wouldn't associate their situation with Xander and Anya's.
If I were to make a guess, Buffy will acknowledge Spike in a romantic way...but will somehow have to sacrifice it. I'm not saying I think anyone will die, necesarily; but if we want to see Spike in a spinoff they have to resolve things by keeping them apart.
Rob Sorenson
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 13:16:48 GMT -5
Robert,
I just finished 'Truth' and I'm sitting here sniffling like a bitty baby. Man, that was great! Thanks for such a good read - and I am thinking that you might not be wrong - it COULD be Xander that saves 'em all again. They've made so much of him not having 'power' this season.
I'm going to go read the 'spin-off' to 'Truth' now. Yippee, all good stories need a spin-off! (Do you hear me Joss?)
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 13:17:37 GMT -5
Ok, I feel a little better. And yes, I'm fairly resigned to knowing that Buffy and Spike can't END UP together -unless they both die, and I don't want that. I just want her to tell him she loves him, and get at least one snuggly/happy/sexy/sweet scene on screen I can sigh over. :-) And a spinoff with Spike as at least the second lead.
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 13:18:44 GMT -5
I'm glad you liked it. The first story was all about me projecting my feelings about Buffy and Xander's friendship. I still don't think Xander believes that Buffy respects him. This is understandable, because he has a lot of lingering self-doubt and she tends to recognize supernaturally powered people like herself mor fully. Before the show ends and both characters are gone I want to see Buffy tell Xander why he means as much as he does. His value is the hardest to put into words...but he deserves to hear it from her nonetheless.
As much as it hurts me to say it, there are no spinoff casting rumors where Xander appears. I've heard Willow, Faith, Spike and Dawn rumors, but no mention of Nick Brendon in a supporting capacity to any of them (obviously Xander isn't a lead character).
If they go with Willow, I have a hard time imagining her without Xander there. It'll be bad enough with Buffy gone....we're supposed to watch Willow without her oldest friend?
Either way, I come back to the dream episode where Xander is talking to Principal Snyder. Snyder's exact quote was "You're a whipping boy, raised by mongrels and set on a sacrificial stone." I have an awful feeling that Xander may be the major character to die. If this happens, I want Xander to go out with some dignity. He deserves that much.
Rob Sorenson
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 13:19:30 GMT -5
Spike had an intense bond with Dru because she sired him, and by doing so released him from the constraints of his 'unworthy' existence. Dru allowed him to actually become efullgent. Her insanity and capriciousness obviously drove the relationship, and Spike's role was both lover, caretaker and champion.I do get the sense that they talked and that Dru often had good observations or preminitions about the best way for Spike to do something. His impulsiveness also turned her on.
Dru also exasperated him and made him angry at times, but his own sense of whimsy (mostly violent wimsey), also allowed him to appreciate the imaginary world(s) she created for herself.He actually admired her ability to do that.
Harmony was just a convienence. Spike likes strong and clever women whether they're crazy or not. Harmony was way too dependent and offered nothing but a ditsy compliance, a place to stay, sex, and someone to act out his Buffy fantasies with.
With Buffy he desperately wanted to talk about their relationship so he could a) get validation, and b)understand what he was he needed to give her to be loved. Buffy would only admit that sometimes she liked him. The minute he tried to get her to talk she was out the door. She didn't want him to be what she needed him to be because then she would have had to admit that the relationship was real.Talk about role reversal.
Rusty Goode
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 13:21:15 GMT -5
: OK, Diane, it's plain that I somehow haven't communicated well. I didn't ask if you personally liked B&B Season 3, since you'd already made it clear that you did not. What I was trying to get at is the disjunction between what the writers were putting out and what a sizeable proportion of the fandom felt they'd been led to expect, posed to one who, like me, was familiar with both the series in question. I was trying/hoping to discuss fandom reactions and the relationship between a series' writers and its fans, and why it sometimes seems to go wrong. But I see this is still so charged a subject that it's best to let it drop. My fault for persisting. Thanks for responding anyway.:
Nan, I apologize for not understanding and I'm still not sure what you're asking, but I'll try anyway.
I don't believe I fall in either category you mention, so this is something of a trick question for me. I wasn't privy to the reactions of many fans since I had limited internet access at the time. But here is how I, personally, felt about it:
My belief is that the negative fan reactions came not just because of the loss of a beloved character--series have survived that before--but the subsequent story arc was so badly plotted and all the secondary characters were suddenly relegated to the background, just when they should have been showcased.
Think of it this way, what if all of a sudden all the stories (ALL! Not the majority) were about Buffy. Not the Buffy we know (What SMG calls "Quippy Buffy") but the depressed Buffy from the end of WRECKED. At the end of WRECKED, Buffy is crying to Tara. Now imagine her without the support of Tara--and also Xander, Willow, Anya, Giles, Dawn and Spike. Imagine all these characters with nothing to do but a line or so each show. Imagine this continuing, unrelentingly week after week. That's what happened to B&B.
Further, B&B offered hope in Seasons 1 and 2. That hope was dashed for all of Season 3 except the last, rush-to-finish moments.
Even during the saddest moments on Buffy, there were moments when we laughed. Laughter on B&B was rare--even during Seasons 1 & 2. During 3, I don't remember it ever happening at all.
I don't know what fandom was led to expect. I think I expected something heroic, larger than life. Instead, Vincent seemed diminshed and the show diminished with him.
I would be delighted to discuss this further in private email. By all means write to me and we'll chew this one into the ground.
Does that help?
Diane U
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 13:21:53 GMT -5
Rusty, you've taken the whole whopping topic (sans the Buffybot) and encapsulated it in a few terse paragraphs, without one false step or unfounded conclusion. I am in awe. You should do more analysis (than you do) since you do it so well!
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 13:22:57 GMT -5
Robert-
I agree with you that the way i which Xander phrased Willow's supposed message "kick his ass" is very out of character but I do not know that buffy would have ever had the time or emotional energy to ponder that.
Buffy is bearing a singular burdern- her speeches and self importance can get tedious but her task is formidable and they are probably one of the only ways she has found to explicate the peculiar nature of her life's work.
I wonder if there is not an implicit cricism of hereditary power since as you said -
"They won't allow her to go through this alone. As I've sadi many times before, she was Chosen. Everyone around her Chose."
Buffy's status as Slayer makes her an uneasy admixture of sacrificial victim and heroic predator of dangerous beasts- it makes her precious-precocious-prescient and a pain in the a%$#...
ellie jason
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 13:23:55 GMT -5
Since a lot of story themes seem to be getting wrapped up this final season I find myself wondering wht actins certain characters will be called upon to aswer for .
Cases in point.
Giles killing Ben- (and I know there is some controversy the ethics of his dispatch of Ben) I am just interested in what if any repercussions may accrue.
Buffy attempting to murder Faith to save Angel's life.
Willo's reckless and repeated use of magic to assuage her pain of rejction (vis a vis Xander,oz and Tara). (ok she may have been punished enough viz flesh stripping monsters but she still seems insufficently integrated in her use of her power).
I am convinced that something special is in store for Xander b/c of his status as all round human whose normalcy,devotion,jealousy,insecurity and valor have been the invisable support through every season.
ellie jason
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 13:24:29 GMT -5
Thanks again for taking the time to articulate what about S3 of B&B was inadequate. Whatever I was trying to get at, that you have tried so valiently to respond to, was probably much too abstract and pretentious, to boot.
Sans the internet, I was nevertheless pretty much at ground zero in that controversy and had no lack of various factions of the fandom yelling in my ear, both figuratively and literally.
As you can speak only for your own self, and I've been increasinly thinking about and trying to understand the synergies between series and their fandoms, it's not a discussion for this board...or probably anywhere, though if I think of some constructive approach, I will e-mail you, as you suggested. 'Fraid it ended up being more off-topic than I originally thought it would be.
You're a good sport, Diane, and you keep pitching. I think that's a fine way to be.
I appreciate your patience, good humor, and forthcomingness,
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 13:25:09 GMT -5
Deborah said :I wonder how the sock is secured on? Anyone care to speculate?: Spring said :Saliva?:
LOL
As my grandmother used to say, "Held together by a lick and a promise."
Lee Parish
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 13:25:57 GMT -5
Wow, thanks Nan. I don't think I'm nearly as articulate as others on this board but I do have an occasionally lucid moment. Except for the spelling. When I write quickly I just lose any ability to spell.
I wish I had more time to get into some of the great comments and observations that happen here. But...I decided to jump into an epic fic.
I have kind of a hiatus at work this next two weeks so I'm putting alot of my spare time into my fang fic. I feel alot of (personal) pressure to get it done before Buffy ends and it seems like it's going to take some time to get where I want it to go. Chapters can take on a life of their own, you know. (Sometimes I feel like Spike, just trying to keep up.) I tend to write, let it sit, and then read it over and fix what didn't work. Right now I'm forcing it a bit to move forward.
Rusty Goode
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 13:27:23 GMT -5
Don't force it Rusty! When the season is over, that's when we're REALLY going to need that 'fang fic'-tion to keep us going until a hoped for spin-off. I know MY interest isn't going to evaporate like a dusted vamp.
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 9, 2003 13:28:15 GMT -5
Thanks Patti. I'll take a deep breath and move at my own pace.
Rusty Goode
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