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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 5, 2004 17:23:29 GMT -5
I wonder what is going on with Weevil and Logan & Lilly. I don't think she had a "thing" with Weevil, but something is up there. Remember when Weevil and Logan resolved things about Paris Hilton (don't remember the character name) by stepping aside and talking to one another? Logan is not on my list of Lily-killer suspects. I would go so far as to say, in my mind it's a "no way." His approach to making that Lily video struck me as completely genuine . . . he even set aside his Veronica-animosity to do it. No - like Veronica, he's been devastated by the death. I think we get quite a few Logan/Veronica parallels, because they've both lost their first-loves and are, in very different ways, acting out. Veronica has a much stronger home base than Logan, and has turned her hurt and anger toward do-gooding (mostly, sorta) while Logan, with a very different environment and upbringing, has turned his hurt and anger toward less savory actions. Time for me to read your review! I'll be back!! I agree completely with everythng you said and speculated on Spring. We must see the characters in just the same ways.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 5, 2004 17:43:39 GMT -5
Sue, wonderful review! I suffer from having not seen the entire episode yet, so for a lot of things you said my reaction was 'oh! I didn't get to see that!' So I can't do justice to your review. But I too loved the scene in the car with Duncan and his father. I think his father was part serious about the list of 'after you...' things, and partly making a gentle dig at himself. This was the first time I had a feeling that Jake was actually a loving father.
Here is a 'duh' question ....What does 'Return of the Kane' mean in your mind? Is this a play on some phrase that I am not 'getting'?
back to the review...
Very nice catch on 'just when the critics were having some doubts.' Love that - will look for it when I get the episode.
I too wondered why Logan stuttered mockingly on Wanda's name. Do you suppose it was a bad editing cut? Maybe there was a bit of dialague about Wanda being a stutterer as a child, and it was cut, but not Logan's line.
It happens....in Buffy for instance, when Xander tells Cordelia to dress sluttier - if possible - when they visit the army base...and Cordelia is actually dressed very modestly. That was a case when the wardrobe was changed and they forgot to change the dialogue to match. (so I read.)
Anyway, that's my fanwank to explain the stuttering. *grin* I have been assuming that Veronica is in the same class (in school) that Duncan and Logan are. I didn't begin the college process until my senior year, but I guess things are done differently now.
I loved the Spy vs. Spy line too!
I'm thinking since Veronica didn't mention it in her voiceovers, that she perhaps did NOT get the message from her mother last week, which would be very sad.
You noticed Duncan's GPA....*laughing* Easy to see where YOUR attention has been the last six months!
Again, very nice job - and when I've SEEN the whole episode I'll probably comment more on it.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 5, 2004 20:11:14 GMT -5
Sue, wonderful review! I suffer from having not seen the entire episode yet, so for a lot of things you said my reaction was 'oh! I didn't get to see that!' So I can't do justice to your review. But I too loved the scene in the car with Duncan and his father. I think his father was part serious about the list of 'after you...' things, and partly making a gentle dig at himself. This was the first time I had a feeling that Jake was actually a loving father. Here is a 'duh' question ....What does 'Return of the Kane' mean in your mind? Is this a play on some phrase that I am not 'getting'? I know you were asking Sue, but hey - here's what it meant in my mind: Play on words with "The Return of The King" from Part III of Lord of the Rings. Plays into Duncan getting his groove back, and the daddy theme. Yes - super review. Illuminated the ep nicely.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 5, 2004 21:15:34 GMT -5
I know you were asking Sue, but hey - here's what it meant in my mind: Play on words with "The Return of The King" from Part III of Lord of the Rings. Plays into Duncan getting his groove back, and the daddy theme. Yes - super review. Illuminated the ep nicely. Thank you Spring! That makes perfect sense now. And for anyone who sees this in time...Kristen Bell will be on David Letterman tonight.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 7, 2004 9:27:52 GMT -5
Oh, yeah! I'm liking Duncan a lot in this ep! But Veronica was also sooooo right when she said that he doesn't do bad stuff, he just sometimes . . . stands by. Not always - I liked her flashback to the thing where he tells the kid he doesn't have to leave the table. But I think he does just let stuff happen sometimes. It's part of that whole "disengaged" thing. Lola Did Duncan just "stand by" when Lily was killed? Edit--I see several others had the same idea.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 7, 2004 10:00:21 GMT -5
Sue,
I really enjoyed your review. I like how you pointed out that the SOTW was such a small part of the episode. I thought the "they get away with murder" line was pretty significant. Someone has gotten away with Lily's murder and Veronica's rape.
I'm with Spring on the "boxing tournament." What's the difference in paying a convicted rapist millions of dollars to hit someone and paying someone who really needs money to hit someone? And, who are more culpable? The people who pay the boxers or the people who pay to watch the boxers?
I think the father--child relationships were very well done. I think the difference in how Veronica's dad relates to her and how the boys' dads relate to them shows how differently fathers treat sons and daughters. It may be "old fashioned" to treat them differently, but it's still gonna happen. Also, we've seen how different Mrs. Kane treats Duncan from the way she treated Lily. Again, moms treat their sons different than their daughters. Fathers see themselves in their sons and mothers do the same with their daughters.
I really liked how Veronica's dad wants to do things with her, but the zoo trip seems like he wants to go back to her childhood. He doesn't want to admit that she's not "daddy's little girl" anymore. Keith is really trying to help her, but I don't buy his "moving on" speech. I have no doubt that Keith is still investigating Lily's murder. Why change the combination to the safe, if he's moved on from Lily's murder?
Mr. Kane wants Duncan to be happy, but he also wants him to excel, both perfectly normal parental reactions. I think his love and concern seemed very genuine.
Logan's dad, well that's a whole 'nother story. He's not concerned about anyone but himself. "Is that the closest homeless shelter you could find?" He'll go as far as it takes to save his image, but not one inch to help his son. He doesn't even help at the shelter, just schmoozes with the press. The room where Logan gets his beating is covered with pictures of dad--huge poster sized pictures. Dad must have a little problem with self-esteem. He did mention that his father was uneducated and poor. He acts proud of his dad in front of the press, but you can bet he's actually ashamed. I thought it was very telling that Logan got the beating for the "half a million dollar" donation comment, not for arranging the boxing. When someone is raised poor, money can easily become the most important thing. We certainly see that with Logan's dad.
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Post by Karen on Nov 7, 2004 13:58:19 GMT -5
I thought it was very telling that Logan got the beating for the "half a million dollar" donation comment, not for arranging the boxing. Good comment, Nicki. And I'm sure that that's how Logan has been raised all along. That money, and not people, is what's important. Excellent review, Sue. There is so much going on here. I think what is interesting to me is Veronica's "sitting idly by" comment that you brought out. There is so much of that going on in this episode. Jake Kane seemed to have stood idly by when his wife and daughter, Lilly, would get into their arguments. Also, Veronica's father decided to drop the investigation of Lilly's murder. It also looks like Logan's mother sits idly by while her husband beats their son. To me, it was so sad how Logan took that beating without protest. I assume he is an only child, like Veronica. Lilly's involvement with Weevil makes sense to me because it seems that that would have hurt her mother. So why is Koontz sitting idly by - willing to die? Good question. He's got to either be protecting from arrest someone he loves that he either knows is the murderer or has been told that, or he's protecting someone he loves from actual physical harm. Someone knows something more than they're telling, of course. It's going to be fun to watch it unravel. Thanks, Sue. You gave me a lot of food for thought.
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Post by Sue on Nov 7, 2004 16:17:48 GMT -5
I kinda wondered about this. I mean, I think, underneath it all, Duncan DID want to enter the race - hence the half-hearted protest, and in the end, embracement of his new role. You may be right about this. Subconciously he may want to be drawn out and return to his normal life. He did try to kick the anti-depressants last week--just wasn't ready to. Agree here too, my thought exactly. I didn't doubt for a moment that if he'd done it he would "take credit." Defacing a poster is kinda lame for Logan. He makes much grander plans--like forcing Duncan into the race. He didn't just want to defeat Wanda, he wanted a known quantity to be elected. He probably also thought he could control Duncan.
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Post by Sue on Nov 7, 2004 16:28:06 GMT -5
Here is a 'duh' question ....What does 'Return of the Kane' mean in your mind? Is this a play on some phrase that I am not 'getting'? Patti, Thank heavens Spring answered this. I'm willing to go with her thought. One reason I ignored it was that I didn't think of it as really "meaning" anything--other than the obvious--that Duncan was beginning to return to "normal." And I thought the phrasing was strange. But I think Spring's thought is a good one. That's as good an explanation as any. I rewatched it and couldn't find any stuttering on Wanda's part for it to be mockery; but it also didn't seem to be a temporary, but real, impediment on Logan's part. It made no sense. It's not really that big a deal. I've just been playing "detective" trying to read clues to figure out their grades. I was quite surprised by the statement that Wanda was a sophomore. In my experience that alone would pretty much kill her election chances. And I was pleased to catch the reference that made Duncan a senior. As for Veronica. Well, I continue to refuse to believe she could be a sophomore--too mature; too much freedom; even the driving thing--unless you have an early birthday many kids aren't even driving as sophomores. But senior----well, by this far into senior year kids are pretty much filling out applications, not just beginning to look at schools (Wanda was far ahead of the curve). And, Veronica was Lilly's best friend so, unless Duncan and Lilly were twins one has to assume Lilly was at least one grade behind Duncan--making her a junior. Yeah--this plot point is just hanging there. Surely it will be referred to. Also--it really does tell us that he's very smart.
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Post by Sue on Nov 7, 2004 16:30:40 GMT -5
And for anyone who sees this in time...Kristen Bell will be on David Letterman tonight. She was nicely personable, but I didn't think she did a great job of selling the show. She referred to it as "the OC meets Twin Peaks". Which would make me turn it on! Then later as "a modern day Nancy Drew." And--don't think Letterman viewers are really UPN's target audience. Hopefully she and maybe Weezil are out hitting some of the MTV and Sharon Osbourne type talk shows.
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Post by Sue on Nov 7, 2004 16:31:36 GMT -5
Did Duncan just "stand by" when Lily was killed? Edit--I see several others had the same idea. I also wonder if Duncan may have a memory block. If he knows something, does he know that he knows it?
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Post by Sue on Nov 7, 2004 16:50:06 GMT -5
Sue, I really enjoyed your review. I like how you pointed out that the SOTW was such a small part of the episode. I thought the "they get away with murder" line was pretty significant. Someone has gotten away with Lily's murder and Veronica's rape. I love how the SOTWs vary so widely from week to week. And also how they are used to embody and flesh out the underlying themes. AND how much this type of intermingling (MOTW with ongoing stuff) is what most reminds me of Buffy episodes. I'd love to ask Rob Thomas if he's a big BtVS fan. Even tho I didn't mention this I did think about it. F/F, F/F, F/D: Fathers do interact differently with their daughters than their sons. (Got both sexes in this family--sometimes the girls get along much better with Jim than me, but at the core I truly understand them much better and they know that too. Tom's a bit tougher. He's not terribly open at the moment with either of us, but maybe that will change down the line. But he is a lot like JIm who is a lot like his father which makes it hard sometimes for all of them to communicate.) The mothers so far: Mrs. Kane is creepy with both her kids--nasty to Lilly and smothering to Duncan; Mrs. Mars is just not there, but we are given to understand that she seems to love Veronica and is acting out of concern for her; Mrs. Echols--well, the entire family is so dysfunctional there's not much to be sad. She's there physically but not there emotionally--sort of the opposite of Mrs. Mars. Oh, two excellent points. That ties in with what I said about mom's actually understanding daughters better. Keith loves V and wants to connect, but still views her in a "my little girl" context. (Altho, he is remarkably good about her being gone late, taking "Backup" and stuff like that). I'm not sure about the investigation thing. Maybe he hasn't done much on it recently and thinks he's "moving on" but he got sucked in pretty quickly with V's new evidence. Imagine his reaction if/when she tells him about the time of death info! I could see him changing the combination tho either way. He should be able to keep some stuff private. I mean, what if he was investigating a serial rapist or child pornography--he wouldn't want Veronica to just happen upon gross pictures. Besides, I think he was hurt by her snooping behind his back and did it to confront her. If she wants him to be honest and share with him than she needs to do the same for him. Good catch. I didn't notice this. Actually, I wondered if this story was even true, or made up for press consumption. One of the political commentators, after the second convention, mentioned how many of the speakers brought up their humble beginnings: "my dad was a coal miner; my dad was an immigrant; my dad was a steel worker; yada yada"; to the point where (the pundit pointed out) it began to look like a competition for who had the humblest beginnings. Oh, yeah. If Aaron had found out about the boxing, but it hadn't made it to the internet I don't think Logan would have been punished at all. It wasn't the nasty immorality of fights--it was about the humiliation of the his public image----and the direct link that would have to financial stuff. Great observations, Nicki.
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Post by Sue on Nov 7, 2004 16:53:52 GMT -5
Good comment, Nicki. And I'm sure that that's how Logan has been raised all along. That money, and not people, is what's important. Excellent review, Sue. There is so much going on here. I think what is interesting to me is Veronica's "sitting idly by" comment that you brought out. There is so much of that going on in this episode. Jake Kane seemed to have stood idly by when his wife and daughter, Lilly, would get into their arguments. Also, Veronica's father decided to drop the investigation of Lilly's murder. It also looks like Logan's mother sits idly by while her husband beats their son. To me, it was so sad how Logan took that beating without protest. I assume he is an only child, like Veronica. Lilly's involvement with Weevil makes sense to me because it seems that that would have hurt her mother. So why is Koontz sitting idly by - willing to die? Good question. He's got to either be protecting from arrest someone he loves that he either knows is the murderer or has been told that, or he's protecting someone he loves from actual physical harm.Someone knows something more than they're telling, of course. It's going to be fun to watch it unravel. Thanks, Sue. You gave me a lot of food for thought. This is a good question. Is he dying anyway? Of course, there must be money involved--one of those stories where he has a child who needs a heart transplant and somebody (a Kane) can arrange it. Seems to me Keith Mars would have thoroughly investigated this aspect. Or blackmail--but what could be so bad that you would go to jail for life and risk the death penalty to avoid it being revealed? Again, there must be others involved whom he is trying to protect. Biblically, wasn't Abel the "good guy" and Cain the cursed brother?
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Post by Lola m on Nov 7, 2004 19:17:52 GMT -5
Excellent review, Sue! And very thoughtful and insightful comments on it from Nicki and Karen and Spring and Patti! Like Nicki, I appreciated your pointing out how little time is actually spent on SOTW and how much is spent on character development – nice comment, Nicki, about how someone has gotten away with murder. And I would also say, as others have, that the themes we see in the SOTW an in the relationship development we saw in this ep, especially that of parents and children, likely have a very direct bearing on the murder storyline as well. I liked how you draw our attention to the clues we are given that Wanda is not exactly the most noble candidate. (Sound bites and her “anti” platform.) Veronica is so tentatively eager to be friends again, to re-connect with Wanda and all that Wanda seems to represent now – someone else who has been hurt by the social power structure of the school. Yet Veronica’s defenses help her in this instance. As you said: I wonder though how often Veronica can experience these kind of disappointments before her cynical shell becomes permanent. Like Spring, I loved your point about Wanda being the . Like her, I can see how well this fits with a theme of parents and children. Loved how you laid out the father & child comparisons! As you point out, it’s all there in the first three scenes. This shows us what the ep is really going to be about, school election aside. Love that we keep getting scenes where Veronica and her dad really talk about things. Maybe not everything, and certainly not perfectly, but in comparison to the other families we see – theirs is the most loving and true. Very nice job on outlining the issues with the Echols. In particular: I loved Nicki’s point about how the beating is handed out not because of the boxing incident, but rather because of the “half million dollar” comment. You take us even one step further, pointing out the comparison between Mr. Echols and the homeless boxers. In the Lily’s murder arc, you correctly point out the biggest clue we’ve had since the discovery of the ticket showing the time of death may not be accurate – the sneakers. (A very nice bit of detective work on Veronica’s part, by the way.) But I was very glad you mentioned the other, smaller links. A possible involvement between Lily and Weevil and questions in Veronica’s mind about Duncan. As Nicki and others have asked, did Duncan “stand by” when Lily was killed? Speaking of “standing by” – props to Karen for her “why is Koontz sitting idly by” comment. It dovetails neatly with what you and Veronica and all the rest of us are wondering now. Why is Koontz willing to die? Lola Also, nifty fanwank on the stutter, Patti, as well as the scoop on Cordy. I hadn’t known about the costume change and have always wondered about that line a bit.
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Post by Karen on Nov 7, 2004 20:03:31 GMT -5
You may be right about this. Subconciously he may want to be drawn out and return to his normal life. He did try to kick the anti-depressants last week--just wasn't ready to. Agree here too, my thought exactly. I didn't doubt for a moment that if he'd done it he would "take credit." Defacing a poster is kinda lame for Logan. He makes much grander plans--like forcing Duncan into the race. He didn't just want to defeat Wanda, he wanted a known quantity to be elected. He probably also thought he could control Duncan. Why would Logan think he could control Duncan? Because of Duncan's state of mind, or something else. That's an interesting observation, tho. I suppose that all the rich kids think that each other will act predictably and stick together. I think Duncan is different. He was dating Veronica, who wasn't rich and outside their group. I wonder how much that upset his mother.
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