|
Post by Karen on Nov 7, 2004 20:12:48 GMT -5
This is a good question. Is he dying anyway? Of course, there must be money involved--one of those stories where he has a child who needs a heart transplant and somebody (a Kane) can arrange it. Seems to me Keith Mars would have thoroughly investigated this aspect.Or blackmail--but what could be so bad that you would go to jail for life and risk the death penalty to avoid it being revealed? Again, there must be others involved whom he is trying to protect. Biblically, wasn't Abel the "good guy" and Cain the cursed brother? Hmmm, maybe he did and found out something he would rather not have.
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Nov 8, 2004 11:03:01 GMT -5
Why would Logan think he could control Duncan? Because of Duncan's state of mind, or something else. That's an interesting observation, tho. I suppose that all the rich kids think that each other will act predictably and stick together. I think Duncan is different. He was dating Veronica, who wasn't rich and outside their group. I wonder how much that upset his mother.I'd say a lot. Lily said something several episodes back about her mom hating Veronica, but not to worry, because she hates every girl he dates. It's a stereotype, but a lot of mothers really DON'T think anyone is good enough for their son. Goes right back to how father-son, father-daughter relationships are different and how mother-son, mother-daughter relationships are different.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Nov 8, 2004 14:27:54 GMT -5
Why would Logan think he could control Duncan? Because of Duncan's state of mind, or something else. That's an interesting observation, tho. I suppose that all the rich kids think that each other will act predictably and stick together. I think Duncan is different. He was dating Veronica, who wasn't rich and outside their group. I wonder how much that upset his mother. Logan definitely had self-serving reasons for "running Ducan" - he did want "one of them" to be president. But I also think he may have been trying to give Duncan a needed kick-in-the-butt as well. Like Veronica, he may have been tired of seeing Duncan "sit idly by." But whether he intended it or not, Logan did administer a needed kick in the pants to Duncan. Veronica's mom was quite upset to learn that Veronica was dating Duncan . . . something, something, something is going on there that is bigger than the "not in your class" thing (though I agree this would likely be a factor in Duncan's Mom list of reasons why Veronica wasn't right for her baby.) So - everyone is sold on Duncan's essential good-guyness? I am still feeling a little uneasy about him - I think because he strikes me as the least clearly defined character on the show. It has to be that way though - it fits with the way he has disassociated himself. It's hard to get to know someone that far down in his shell. Maybe now that he's made a first move, we'll get to know him better. I can't decide if I think he "sat idly by" during Lily's murder, or if he feels that he was somehow an active participant in the murder - so he has decided he can't trust himself to do anything but sit idly by these days. That whole "Abel/Kane" names thing has such a strong connotation of fratricide it worries me. Cain kills Abel out of jealousy, when God prefers Abel's whole-hearted sacrifice of his finest lamb, to Cain's more stingy sacrifice of some extra grain. But despite that, I just can't believe that Duncan is a murderer - especially because we get the big hints that Duncan doesn't consciously know who killed Lily - though he is definitely repressing there. But what is he repressing? I don't know what to think! But I like it!
|
|
|
Post by Sue on Nov 8, 2004 14:40:12 GMT -5
Logan definitely had self-serving reasons for "running Ducan" - he did want "one of them" to be president. But I also think he may have been trying to give Duncan a needed kick-in-the-butt as well. Like Veronica, he may have been tired of seeing Duncan "sit idly by." But whether he intended it or not, Logan did administer a needed kick in the pants to Duncan. Veronica's mom was quite upset to learn that Veronica was dating Duncan . . . something, something, something is going on there that is bigger than the "not in your class" thing (though I agree this would likely be a factor in Duncan's Mom list of reasons why Veronica wasn't right for her baby.)So - everyone is sold on Duncan's essential good-guyness? I am still feeling a little uneasy about him - I think because he strikes me as the least clearly defined character on the show. It has to be that way though - it fits with the way he has disassociated himself. It's hard to get to know someone that far down in his shell. Maybe now that he's made a first move, we'll get to know him better. I can't decide if I think he "sat idly by" during Lily's murder, or if he feels that he was somehow an active participant in the murder - so he has decided he can't trust himself to do anything but sit idly by these days. That whole "Abel/Kane" names thing has such a strong connotation of fratricide it worries me. Cain kills Abel out of jealousy, when God prefers Abel's whole-hearted sacrifice of his finest lamb, to Cain's more stingy sacrifice of some extra grain. But despite that, I just can't believe that Duncan is a murderer - especially because we get the big hints that Duncan doesn't consciously know who killed Lily - though he is definitely repressing there. But what is he repressing? I don't know what to think! But I like it! As long as it's not that nasty soap opera plot that Jake Kane is really Veronica's father. Yuck! (And, maybe Lilly wasn't really his daughter!) That would also make Veronica one of Jake's heirs. hmmmmmmmmmm Continuing the thought line (however ridiculous)---Maybe Lilly and Weevil were half-siblings.
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Nov 8, 2004 17:45:09 GMT -5
Why would Logan think he could control Duncan? Because of Duncan's state of mind, or something else. That's an interesting observation, tho. I suppose that all the rich kids think that each other will act predictably and stick together. I think Duncan is different. He was dating Veronica, who wasn't rich and outside their group. I wonder how much that upset his mother. I think Duncan is different, too. Although, that very difference may be contributing to his passive attitude. Because you're right about the rich kids probably sticking together. If it's like most high schools, each of the different groups of kids probably stay in their own circle and can be pretty mean to someone who strays from the pack or deviates from what they consider the "right" or "expected" behavior. Lola
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Nov 8, 2004 17:45:38 GMT -5
Hmmm, maybe he did and found out something he would rather not have. **nods a lot** Lola
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Nov 8, 2004 17:47:48 GMT -5
I'd say a lot. Lily said something several episodes back about her mom hating Veronica, but not to worry, because she hates every girl he dates. It's a stereotype, but a lot of mothers really DON'T think anyone is good enough for their son. Goes right back to how father-son, father-daughter relationships are different and how mother-son, mother-daughter relationships are different. Yep. I think we got vibes that mom was really not happy at all. And it is kind of a stereotype, but also true often enough - the different ways that mothers relate to daughters versus sons and fathers to daughters versus sons. Lola
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Nov 8, 2004 17:49:59 GMT -5
Logan definitely had self-serving reasons for "running Ducan" - he did want "one of them" to be president. But I also think he may have been trying to give Duncan a needed kick-in-the-butt as well. Like Veronica, he may have been tired of seeing Duncan "sit idly by." But whether he intended it or not, Logan did administer a needed kick in the pants to Duncan. Veronica's mom was quite upset to learn that Veronica was dating Duncan . . . something, something, something is going on there that is bigger than the "not in your class" thing (though I agree this would likely be a factor in Duncan's Mom list of reasons why Veronica wasn't right for her baby.) So - everyone is sold on Duncan's essential good-guyness? I am still feeling a little uneasy about him - I think because he strikes me as the least clearly defined character on the show. It has to be that way though - it fits with the way he has disassociated himself. It's hard to get to know someone that far down in his shell. Maybe now that he's made a first move, we'll get to know him better. I can't decide if I think he "sat idly by" during Lily's murder, or if he feels that he was somehow an active participant in the murder - so he has decided he can't trust himself to do anything but sit idly by these days. That whole "Abel/Kane" names thing has such a strong connotation of fratricide it worries me. Cain kills Abel out of jealousy, when God prefers Abel's whole-hearted sacrifice of his finest lamb, to Cain's more stingy sacrifice of some extra grain. But despite that, I just can't believe that Duncan is a murderer - especially because we get the big hints that Duncan doesn't consciously know who killed Lily - though he is definitely repressing there. But what is he repressing? I don't know what to think! But I like it! Oh, I'm not counting anyone out of the running for murderer yet. I think we see general goodguyness in Duncan, but that doesn't rule out all sorts of possibilities for involvement. Lola
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Nov 8, 2004 17:52:33 GMT -5
As long as it's not that nasty soap opera plot that Jake Kane is really Veronica's father. Yuck! (And, maybe Lilly wasn't really his daughter!) That would also make Veronica one of Jake's heirs. hmmmmmmmmmm Continuing the thought line (however ridiculous)---Maybe Lilly and Weevil were half-siblings. Oh, merciful Zeus I'm glad someone else has had that nasty little thought. (Mr Kane as Veronica's real dad. ) I would hope they don't go that route. But, that said, I won't really object to any plot line as long as it is done well. Lola **snickers about the Lily - Weevil concept**
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Dec 8, 2004 8:29:46 GMT -5
Just one more "huh" moment I missed - a little throw away bit, sorta, that adds to the whole "who is really related to who" theme.
The bit where Veronica is doodling Duncan's name on Lily's shoe, circled by a heart. And Lily sees it and goes "that's disturbing" (or something like that) because, it's her brother.
Or is it? (Cue the ominous da da da music.)
Lola
I was thinking so much of how did Koontz get the shoes, etc. that I totally missed this bit last time. And I almost wrote "I was thinking so much about how the shoes might fit into Lily's murder that I missed this", except of course, the whole parentage issue might figure very importantly into the murder.
|
|
|
Post by calendae on Jan 21, 2005 18:51:42 GMT -5
Stepping in very, very late to mention the reason for Logan stuttering on Wanda's name. It's an obvious reference to the film A Fish Called Wanda where Michael Palin plays a stuttering petty criminal. Not so unusual for Logan to reference movies. Note his reference to Brigadoon in episode 5.
|
|
|
Post by Queen E on Jan 21, 2005 19:06:02 GMT -5
Stepping in very, very late to mention the reason for Logan stuttering on Wanda's name. It's an obvious reference to the film A Fish Called Wanda where Michael Palin plays a stuttering petty criminal. Not so unusual for Logan to reference movies. Note his reference to Brigadoon in episode 5. Nice catch! And yes, it makes perfect sense that a movie star's son would be that film-savvy (well, for a teenager who would have been about 6 when that movie came out).
|
|
|
Post by Lola m on Jun 16, 2005 18:39:09 GMT -5
Well, on this re-watch, I of course spent a lot of energy just watching Aaron Echolls every time he was on screen. Since this is the first time we meet him, I looked for clues to his identity as the murderer.
Mostly, of course, we discover that he is a violent man - a dad who smacks his kid around. But I also noticed: * Menacing shots of him, filmed from below, in the house (a hint to his likely behavior with Lilly). * We see him in a video-taped ad for Duncan for president (Aaron on video - the reason he'll kill Lilly). * We learn how very very important his image is to him - not just money, but the image that goes along with his stardom. It is this blow to his public image combined with the way that Logan uses public exposure to extort donation money out of him that spurs him to use violence on his son (just as Lilly's threat to ruin his image with the sex tape - and, who knows, possibly also a request for blackmail money - that spurs him to kill her).
So, the murder parallels are right there. Not in your face clues, but looking back . . .
|
|
|
Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 2, 2006 17:49:09 GMT -5
Lookie Loos and amateur paprazzi. Logan is not amused while father is.
Student government elections. I want an "Election" reference.
Wallace's father is dead.
Pirate points
Damn!!!
Desert for dinner!!! My parents would throw a fit if I did that.
Lamb is a camera whore.
Playing solitare. nice.
Aaron sponsering Duncan in the elections. Wow, that's low.
Homeless boxing.
So did some one steal the election for Duncan?
Hey it's that woman!
2 sets of ballot instructions
Engaged, enthusiastic about something. Guidance counselor said the same about Veronica
Parental pressure
OK, don't do that. HEE!!!
Isn't it about time you found another bad guy?
How Veronica sees Logan and Duncan.
Logan and Aaron CREEPY!!!!
heir to the status quo. or is he?
New money. How much of Neptune wealth is New Money? probably most.
CREEPY!!!!!!!
Shady politicians start in high school
Duncan resolves the pirate point issue. Well played.
Keith changed the combo. Well played.
I used to think that solving the case was the key to our happiness.
OK, now I get it about the shoes.
Return of the Kane, Kane-->Cane, as in beating, except it was with a belt, at least this time.
Excellent acting by Jason Dohring. Good episode.
|
|