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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 16:47:51 GMT -5
Thank you for another wonderful post, Robert. I couldn't agree with you more on every point.
Did you see my Xander favorite moment in my original posting today? It was when after making his little quip about the chains he pats Spike on the shoulder in what I saw as a very friendly gesture. Nice.
deborah
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 16:48:33 GMT -5
Yes, I got that. I should have made mention of it before. Considering it was one of Xander's 2 lines of dialogue, I should have paid closer attention (feel the good natured sarcasm coming off in waves). Second time around, I did notice Xander's decency toward him. It makes sense. In "First Date," Spike isn't hostile toward Xander in any way...in fact he helps to save him. Xander sees things more clearly when it comes to Spike.
Rob Sorenson
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 16:49:10 GMT -5
Nan said:
"A question several pages back (forgive me for forgetting whose) was in regard to why Spike was in game face in that initial encounter with Nikki in the park whereas in the subway duel, he was in human face the whole time."
That was one of my points actally. And your response makes a certain amount of sense, Nan. Sometimes I just can't reconcile the inconsistency but in this case your explanation made sense.
Now in last night's FX rerun of "Dead Things" I was struck by Spike going into game-face when he tried to prevent Buffy from going to the police in the alley. It seemed uncalled for and out of character to me. I still can't figure out why he would have done that with her and in that context. Maybe just because ME wanted to drive home the point that when Buffy was beating on him after he was down and no longer defending himself he was in human face, even though all the while she was lashing out at him for being an EST? Someone help me out here. d
deborah
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 16:49:43 GMT -5
In terms of Spike's "explanation" to Wood about how things are between vampires and Slayers, implying a natural antipathy and the implicit rules of "a fair fight," it now occurs to me there's a similarity between Spike's current position vis a vis Wood and that of a soldier returning from a war in (for instance) Iran confronting, years after the fact, an Iranian with a relative for whose death that soldier was being held personally responsible. The only possible response would be, "It was a war. That person was a soldier, too. Soldiers kill one another in wars: that's how it is."
Of course Spike wasn't under any orders in dueling Nikki, nor was he defending anyone, let along a country or a way of life...except in the very vaguest sense. In fact, he was going against natural vampire order, as expressed through Angelus, who'd never be caught dead (pardon) actually going against a Slayer in single combat unless there was absolutely no other alternative. Whereas Spike lives to take on the hardest, most dangerous opponent imaginable--a Slayer, who's at least as likely to kill him as he is to kill her. This isn't a predator/prey thing--for either Nikki or Spike: it's a predator/predator combat, which virtually all predators will avoid if possible because the risk of disabling injury or death is so great. And Spike seeks it out, again and again.
The analogy holds true, however, in the sense of "That's the rules of the game in this world: that's how things are. It isn't personal--it's just how things are." Our hypothetical soldier and Spike could have said this with equal justice. And our hypothetical Iranian, and Wood, want to insist that anything that hurts them personal IS personal and merits a personal vengence.
That's what Spike is specifically denying. No vampire has a right to claim vengeance against a Slayer (and as far as we know, none except Angelus ever has: against Buffy, for the crime of making him feel things Angelus HATED having felt); likewise no human has a right of vengeance against a vampire any more than they would against a cougar, a tiger, or any other predator that sought out a human as its rightful and natural prey--as Holtz does, on Angel...quite successfully, in fact. And Holtz is shown to be, and perceived as, a monster at least as great as Angelus ever was, for taking revenge on ANGEL and his baby for ANGELUS' murder of Holtz' own family centuries before.
Again, does this sound anything like right?
Nan Dibble
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 16:50:16 GMT -5
Deb, thanks for identifying the original question about Spike and Nikki in the park. I would never have been able to find it again, but I remembered it, and that it hadn't been addressed.
Here's a thought about Dead Things: in that alley, Spike was intentionally provoking Buffy to beat him up in an attempt to deflect her, by any means necessary, from turning herself in for what's-her-name's murder (Katrina's?), that she'd been demonically/magically persuaded was her own doing instead of Warren's.
What better way to force Buffy out of the sexplay fighting and into a real beating than to go into game face and confront her that way? She then wasn't beating up Spike, her lover--she was pummeling a vampire standing in the way of what she knew (however fearfully and reluctantly) had to be done, no matter the consequences to her.
Any merit there, you think?
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 16:50:56 GMT -5
You guys are posting over here as fast as the ep. board. Then tomorrow we'll have Angel too. I "had" to go out to dinner with my family (son home from college for 6 days) and got behind. Got to get to Angel. Still feel compelled to post on main ep board. Lee re feelings of general "unworthiness?". And you are an attorney?! I've been a stay-at-home Mom for 20 years! But then, I was originally from Pittsburgh and my husband says everybody from Pittsburgh has a "Pittsburgh accent", by which he means that we deliver even the simplest thought in a TONE of voice which implies: This is the ONLY correct opinion in the universe and if you can't see that you are a hopeless idiot--see so I fit right in over there.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 16:51:34 GMT -5
Well- even in the 70's few people ventured into Cental Park with small children in tow- even slayers with supernatural powers would have to think twice about subjecting chikdren to the kinds of unwanted attention that might elicit.
So- I think it makes more sense that Nikki was tutoring tiny Wood in the elementals of Slayer-y life.
ellie jason
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 16:52:20 GMT -5
I said,
In fact, he was going against natural vampire order, as expressed through Angelus, who'd never be caught dead (pardon) actually going against a Slayer in single combat unless there was absolutely no other alternative.
That's correct through all his unlife...up until Buffy, of course. For Angelus, fighting with Buffy was personal. Trying to destroy her friends, everything around her, leaving tokens in her room, psychological warfare of the kind he'd practiced against Drusilla, as we know--but never before against a Slayer. Angel had never been in love before; Angelus had never taken on a Slayer before. But as (I think) Willow hesitantly pointed out to Buffy, with Angelus, "All he still thinks about is you," shuddery thought though that is.
Angelus never aspires to the vainglorious combats that Spike delights in. The risk is too great and the possible fruits of success are nonexistent from Angelus' viewpoint. Except with Buffy, who is always the exception.
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 16:53:21 GMT -5
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 16:53:50 GMT -5
Title says it all. You've been missed for many reasons, but the need to move up the board has become urgent. I was SOOOOO glad to see your postname!
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 16:54:41 GMT -5
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 16:55:12 GMT -5
Dare I ask--what ARE the three speeds?
HOT, HOTTER, and HOTTEST?
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 16:55:38 GMT -5
Been reading the ep board - wow, is it rough over there. You guys did a great job defending Spike.
I'm going to work now on catching up on this board, my minions keep me pretty busy.
One thing, it thrilled my heart to hear Buffy tell Woods she would let Spike kill him.
Loved the episode.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 16:56:05 GMT -5
Yes, there was a new Angel. Do you need a tape copy? Email me at spichert@yahoo.com (since my email doesn't exsist anywhere on the Scoopme board, I'll just publish it for "anybody" to see.)
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Post by Dalton on Jul 17, 2003 16:56:33 GMT -5
Hey!! Loved the pic. Where is this ride, exactly??
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