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Post by Dalton on Jul 21, 2003 13:03:58 GMT -5
Thanks Lee.
I just wish I'd reviewed it one more time before hitting the Post Message button. I copied and pasted to spell check and then just posted, failing to see that I'd messed up my paragraphs. My comments about SI's quoted previous post should have led a new paragraph. Somehow I managed to mess up that break.
Another lack of edit function fatality.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 21, 2003 13:04:35 GMT -5
deb, you did great with your post, but there are just some folks over at the ep board that are truly intractable. I mean, I saw your post, and that someone is still responding with that "Spike has shown no remorse" stuff.
I think I am gonna give up because . . . what show are they watching? All Spike did was show remorse for episode after episode, wallowing in it all, telling Buffy he could "barely live with what he had done", etc.
If someone is paying this little attention, what can you say?
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Post by Dalton on Jul 21, 2003 13:05:27 GMT -5
//While watching Angel last night I was once again struck by what has seemed to be a recurring double standard. Someone reassures Angel (sorry, don't remember who) that he doesn't need to feel guilty for anything Angelus had done.// Disclaimer: I know some of this was definitely already said in the past few weeks but it was bothering me again last night when watching Angel and thinking about everything that was being said about Buffy. Deborah, I assume when you refer to the double standard, you are talking about fans. Is that correct? I was thinking the same thing last night watching Angel. However, it is fans that set that double standard because, I could be wrong, but ME seems to be hitting us over the head with their opinion on the matter. Once the demon takes over, there is no choice. There are too many references to support this for me to list them all here. However, here are some that stand out to me. First, before becoming Angelus makes sure everyone understands that is not him speaking. Second, Connor tells Angelus he knows that Angel is not his "real" father. Even when Angelus and Faith were traveling through his memory, we saw two separate entities. Then, once Angel is back, everyone purposely doesn't treat him any different due to Angelus' actions. In fact, it is only Angel who feels the need to address the issue. (Now, because I’ve read the posts in the meantime, let me clarify… I don’t think they are two separate entities. I think they take the wrong approach their point clear on Angel. Yet, I wonder if they know that people have a hard time with understanding it and that is why they want Angel and Angelus to appear to be two different people. Just look at how people handle it when, as with Spike, it is clear that Spike with a Soul is still Spike…) On that note, I actually don't think it is fair for fans to compare Angel and Spike. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Angel with a soul is NOTHING like Spike with a soul. Once chose to the return of his soul and the other was cursed with it. Unlike Spike, who has the freedom to live his life as he chooses, Angel is burdened with his guilt. If he lets go of it, the consequences are too large. In essence, he has no choice but to continue paying for his actions as Angelus for Eternity. This was the point of the curse. So, for those who are trying to say Angel is much more “heroic” than Spike, I’d have to seriously disagree (and, I love Angel). Angel is on his path of “redemption” because he has no choice. It was not a self-less decision he consciously made. In a way, his comment to Faith that you can ever reach redemption isn’t all that valid when coming from his point of view. Because, he is right, he’ll never reach redemption. If he does, he will release Angelus once again. (This is precisely the reason I had issues with Giles’ comments last night. Angel didn’t leave Buffy for entirely selfless reasons or for her alone. He had to leave for himself as well. Giles should have been able to see this… if he had claimed that Angel had left because it was best for the “mission”, that wouldn’t have bothered me but to claim Angel did it for her… wrong!) Spike, on the other hand, doesn’t have these “shackles” holding him back. He can, without fear of losing his soul, accept that what he has done in the past was not something he had control over and move on. This freedom puts him in an entirely different position than Angel. To compare his actions with Angel’s don’t make sense. Would Angel continue living the guilt-angst ridden life if he didn’t have to? I doubt it. Angel has proven himself, on more than one occasion, to be very self-centered. And, Spike has shown remorse several times this season. No wonder everyone was afraid of him becoming another Angel. Even Buffy called him on it. In the words of Cordy, “Get over it!” (And, I think he has now.) I’m all for showing remorse but there is a reason BtVS takes place in “Sunny”dale and AtS takes place in “dark” LA. Ok... back to work, gosh darn it! Rae PS - I tried to read the rest of the posts before positing this but, inevitably, I know I missed a few. So, sorry if I repeat anyone else's thoughts! Rae Hanson
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Post by Dalton on Jul 21, 2003 13:07:20 GMT -5
Concerning Spike's reclaiming of the duster: I've thought, Besides, it's HIS: he won it, fair and square.
One may like or dislike the constant battle between vamps and Slayers, but it WAS a fair fight (Spike didn't ambush Nikki, shoot her, poison her, overwhelm her with minions, etc.) He put his life on the line and beat her, hand to hand. Assuming Slayers have a "right" to kill vamps, I believe vamps also have a right to defend themselves, and that makes this duel at least as legitinate (IMHO: I'm a Ho) as any war. To the victor therefore belong the spoils.
In that Thanksgiving ep with the Native American and the bear and all, when Spike is tied to the chair, he give a pretty good summary of his attitude about war: it's good if you win, bad if you lose, and the Native Americans lost. He comments something to the effect that Julius Cesear (sp?) didn't say, I came, I saw, I conquered and I feel really bad about it" and considers Willow's desire to be PC about the destruction of that tribe as hypocritical and naive. I can't but believe he'd apply the same realpolitik, unsentimental rule to vamp/Slayer battles. And that's not the demon talking, nor probably William: that's Spike, who's been a fearsome warrior all of his unlife.
The duster is rightfully his--claimed and now reclaimed. He paid the price for it. Robin didn't. And Robin could neither take it away from him nor make him give it up. Might makes Right.
Not a PC sentiment, but one Spike I believe would generally agree with.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 21, 2003 13:07:55 GMT -5
Rae says: "I’m all for showing remorse but there is a reason BtVS takes place in “Sunny”dale and AtS takes place in “dark” LA."
Yay Rae. Exactly.
Nan, I saw Spike taking his duster as signal he was sending to Wood - a show of strength. In fact, I think of his whole reaction to Wood, at the end, that way.
Wood made it clear he wanted to kill Spike. Spike had to make it clear that he didn't have the SLIGHEST inclination toward believing that was -IN ANY WAY - OK.
To show Wood any guilt or remorse or any sort of second thoughts at all would have been a tactical error for him to make. Taking the coat back was a great move. It makes what he said to Buffy very clear to Wood, without words: "You even look at me wrong again, and I'll kill you. I am such a bad ass, I'm even taking this coat back - and you're such a wimp, you can't stop me."
To me, it was all about sending the message, dominating the environment, defending himself with the best offense imaginable.
Edited By Spring Summers at 3/27/2003 11:58:00 AM.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 21, 2003 13:08:29 GMT -5
Yup Nan, when you come right down with it and cut out all the crap that's what you end up with. As you said, he won it fair and square. I think he would wholeheartedly agree with every word you said.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 0:38:42 GMT -5
Thanks Spring and Rae for your comments about my posting concerning Spike/Angel and Spike taking back the Duster. As far as the duster goes, I think between us we've pretty much covered the bare essentials of that act.
- Symbolic of personality integration; acceptance of all he is (I stand by that)
- As an underscore to the harsh reality lesson he gave to Wood
- As a show of strength
- As his rightful property by virtue of fair victory over his opponent in battle; spoils of war.
FYI, Witchy Willow posted some very sensible comments re Spike over on the Episode Board. See #319
Now, I really, really really have to discipline myself to get some work. I can't afford another day like yesterday but so far that's where I'm heading. So, no matter how interesting, inspiring or provoking anything anybody here or *there* says, I will lurk but not interject. So say I.
deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 0:39:40 GMT -5
Somebody on the episode board made a reference to the SSS postings which prompted an inquiry about how to access the SSS website. I posted the link, but also said you could access it by going to the misc board, to the SSS postings and clicking on the link in Post #1. This works for Part 13, and presumably, previous parts (1-12).
BUT: (HELP, HELP). WHEN I WENT TO SSS:PART 14, POST #1 AND CLICKED ON THE BLUE HIGHLIGHTED "SOULFUL SPIKE SOCIETY" I WAS not automatically connected to the website, I was sent to a Yahoo page instead. I think this needs to be fixed, ASAP.
Thanks, Sue
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 0:40:27 GMT -5
Except for this last time to say that I meant to say Thanks Spring, Rae, & Nan for your comments about the duster. I already had praised Nan's comments in a separate post but wzs referencing her comments here. Excluding her name was an oversight. Sorry.
deborah
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 0:41:20 GMT -5
I don't think Spike has much sympathy for victims even now. He's capable of equating some teenager he killed with Dawn and now finding it horrible, but his gut reaction would be to get angry about it and try to prevent that from happening--fight--rather than sink into a puddle of guilt and remorse (albeit that's what he's been doing since the beginning of Season 7...AND HE JUST STOPPED when he first put that duster back on). He's not a whiner. I don't think Spike is ever gonna be big on the empathy thing: it's too crippling. That doesn't make him a monster (going by Giles, Riley Finn, Xander, or even Buffy). Just makes him a fighter.
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 0:42:22 GMT -5
Here's a copy of what I posted under the "What you always wanted to see!" topic on the Misc. board.
Cheers! - L
This one's for Robert:
Buffy and Xander get together. Xander has been in love with Buffy for seven years (and yes, I think he is still in love with her even when he was with Anya) and has been the one constant in her life. The one who has never gone away, the one who has stayed by her through thick and thin, the one she can always count on to back her up (granted, he may not agree with her but he is always willing to fight for or with her)...basically the one person who has never let her down. Before anyone jumps me, I know that Xander has disappointed her in the past (i.e. his feelings toward Angel and Spike, etc.) but he has always been willing to overlook whatever feelings and opinions he has in order to be there for her, to help her, to defend her. Xander would do anything for Buffy (and on the same token, for Willow but that's a deep love borne from lifelong friendship) even if it endangers himself.
So, I would have loved to see Buffy finally realize this about Xander and accept the love he has for and, not only accept, but reciprocate. Edited By Lee Hollins at 3/27/2003 1:02:00 PM
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 0:43:22 GMT -5
Thank you for a rewording my my sentiment, "he earned it."
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 0:44:10 GMT -5
The Giles issue is tricky, but ultimately I have to look at his actions in a negative light. He made quite the presumption in not attempting to do that stone thing again with Spike. With some prompting and some dialouge with Buffy and Spike, I am sure he could have convinced Spike to try to fight address the trigger that way. I think that's what would have happened had it not been for Wood's influence. I think Giles allowed his rational worries about Spike to be influenced by his personal feelings about him after seeing Woods example as an escape: if it personal vendettas are served, so what if it's in the service of a greater good. That statement is true enough, but that sort of thinking makes it far too easy to give in to personal desires.
As others here have suggested, Giles is acting as if "Helpless" never occured, and is trying to do what's best for Buffy without any input from her. It's horrifically condescending thing to do and a very parental thing to do (I have issues).
I don't think Giles' actions this season are neccesarily out of character, but I have to create an off-screen backstory in my mind to reconcile his behaviour. I think it's a terrible cheat that we don't know anything of his private life for the past two years, and just have to sit and squirm while watching this slightly off version of Giles.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 0:45:05 GMT -5
Ok, this morning while getting ready for work I was watching "Older and Far Away" and I realized how much I hated Dawn last season! I mean, seriously couldn't stand her. She was so whiny and annoying! I LOVED (note the heavy sarcasm) how everything was always how no one liked her or wanted to be around her, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, no freakin' wonder, kid genius - when you're annoying as piss, generally not that many people want to be around you. You lied, stole, whined at every opportunity and so on. Granted, I probably need to cut her some slack on the account she didn't really exist until the year before and I'm sure being a Key that someone Hell God wants to use to open a demon dimension is a bitch. But, c'mon...the kid was annoying as sin last year! She has changed a lot (thank God!) and this season she has been one of my favorite characters (and lord knows I couldn't imagine saying that last year!). I love Michelle Trachtenburg as an actress - I mean, you have to be impressed by someone whose character you hate with a fiery passion but still enjoy the actress.
Since I have a kid sister who drove me absolutely, positively, mind-numbingly INSANE when we were younger, watching Dawn last season was almost like re-living my childhood.
Sorry for the rant! My apologies to anyone who liked Dawn last season (apologies for liking Dawn, not my rant! ;-) )
-L
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 0:46:00 GMT -5
Diane, if I ended up rewording something you'd already expressed without giving you credit, humble apologies. My only excuse was that I thunk it up for myself back in the "how did the duster get into the school basement" discussions, when there was some objection to his reclaiming the duster at all, no matter where it was boxed up. And I thought, well he won it in a fair fight, so it's his, as icky and precious as any other war trophy somebody might have hanging around their house (for instance).
Nan
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