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Post by Dalton on Jul 14, 2003 14:42:47 GMT -5
Welcome to the unhallowed ground of the Soulful Spike Society (SSS or 'S' cubed). Topic area devoted to Spikaholics, Spuffyites, Spike shippers of all types, plus any James Marsters information. Share your knowledge, insights, observations, speculations, or other information on our favorite character/actor in or out of any episode. Straying off topic not a problem here. We welcome posts on any other aspect of the BtVS series also, but please, no spoilers. See also "The Soulful Spike Society" and/or "All Things Spike/James Marsters" (Parts 1-13) farther down the Miscellaneous Board. Visit our web site for the Soulful Spike Society at www.soulfulspike.comAgain, welcome! Alexandra K. 3/27/2003
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Post by Dalton on Jul 20, 2003 21:04:52 GMT -5
*cough* I guess the subject heading says it all... *wink*
Edited By Vlad I at 3/27/2003 5:11:00 AM.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 20, 2003 21:06:44 GMT -5
Oh man... I was out and about...came home..watched my taped ATS (a very good episode I may add)and then decided to catch up on the posts to the S'cubie board...all 6 friggin pages of them (for me anyway, where I had left off this afternoon). Then someone (Patti perhaps?) said they were saying baaaaaddd things over at hte episodes board somewhere around post 70. Realizing that I hadn't yet read the "official" analysis of the ep yet, I read it and found it to my liking and then preceeded to begin reading the posts. I was interested on how a Spike-centric episode would be taken by the masses.
Now, concerning post #70 by Gaskins...I too have never liked his posts. He always seems to simply like to say inflamatory things. Thats not the worst thing in the world (a guy named Kyle Frenata used to do it all the time on the Firefly board and I loved him for it, because it spiced up the rather boring conversations over there) if it can get a discussion going, but with Gaskins' analogies (and his personal referencing)to Sept. 11th, I felt he went way too far. I was very impressed that a regular ep poster called him on it and said more elegantly exactly what I was feeling about it being in poor taste. How, oh how, I wish I had read it early enough for a reply of mine to be...pertinant.
Anyway.. I digress, but let me say right here and now that I feel Gaskins did a tasteless thing over there. To me, whether he be survivor or not, he simply cheapened the memory of the true heroes of that day by even mentioning them in reference to a television show. What happened that day is reality, pure and simple and should not ever be compared to a fantasy based borderline soap-opera. Yes, soap opera, albeit a really, really, really good one!
Anyway..back to what I was saying...I found it distressing and depressing that the majority of the regular Episode posters just don't seem to get this episode and what it was trying to say about Spike. Spike wasn't perfect.. and I feel a little ambiguous about the coat issue... but after thought and consideration, I have to agree with what some poster said. Trophy or not...Wood, by what he attempted to do to Spike at the TIME when he chose to do it, after he KNEW Spike saved his life, was jsut WRONG. Wood in my mind forfeited right to that coat as a legacy from his mother at htat moment. Spike indeed deserves it more as a trophy and a legacy from his battle and victory over the slayer than Wood does as an heirloom. Spike did what he did as a vamp because he was possessed by a demon. The fact that Wood knew that and intentionally triggered Spike into that demon was soooo wrong. *jsut shakes his head* Sorry, I am saying nothing new here. All that reading of like 300 or more posts has my brain twirling.
One point I would like to bring up is that jsut because Spike has a soul, why does everyoine think he needs to be Saint William or something. Buffy herself has said more than once that Spike is a fighter...a warrior. Not a paladin.. not a crusader. He fights for hte side of good yes, but his personal viewpoints don't need to match everyone elses. This thing between he and Wood is a personal matter. And in this case, it really is Wood that started it. Wood didn't believe the crap he was using on Giles to get him to help..he jsut knew what buttons to push. The things he said to Spike before he attempted to kill him bears that out.
I applauded Giles when he snuffed out Ben's life. Why? Because for jsut friggin once, there wasnt an easy solution. Giles had to get a dark stain on his soul.. he had to commit a very questionable act.. the murder of an almost innocent to win the war. He did bad for good reason. It was about friggin time that SOMEONE didn't get off wiut hte easy solution. He didn't get to die and go to heaven. He chose to do what you or me would have had to face in that situation. And you know what..some of us would, some of us wouldn\'t and I don't think that really says a whole lot about any of us. It is in the context of how we understood what we were doing at the moment. That's what allows us to so easily forgive Giles his sin of murder. It was an actual act of self defense or the defense of other innocents in his eyes. For our dear Principal Wood.. he was commiting an act that was every bit as reprehensible as the murders that vamp Spike committed. He knew he had the wrong guy and still tried to execute him. At least Spike didn't have a soul. Assumably Wood does...tho' I don't think if he died right now he'd be going to heaven.
Sorry for the ramble,
Vlad
Edited By Vlad I at 3/27/2003 5:49:00 AM.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 20, 2003 21:07:24 GMT -5
One of my favorite episodes. Haven't read all the posts yet on the Episode Board or on ours. As far as Spike-development goes, and forgive me if this has already been said -- I'm sure it has.
In realizing that his nasty vamp mum wasn't the mum who had loved him, but rather the demon -- Spike also, I believe, came to terms with his own duality. And admitted to Wood "Yes I killed your mum but that was the demon". He could have killed Wood, and chose not to. Now, whether he chose not to because he really wanted to give him the "free pass" or because he knew killing Wood would upset Buffy, well, I'm not going to say one way or the other.
I probably won't be able to catch up on all the posts until the weekend -- am looking forward almost, to the flaming on the ep boards. Bring it on.
I miss Juliet Landau. I loved Drusilla's little "pfft" when William suggested he bring mother along for the ride.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 20, 2003 21:08:24 GMT -5
I posted some of my best efforts on the Episode board, but I doubt I'll go back except maybe as a lurker. I like discussion and debate. I do not like backbiting and disrespectful carping.
It's a nasty place if simply reading posts can make you angry enough to cry. I don't think I've ever seen so mean-spirited a board.
I'm staying here.
Diane (Plants feet firmly in mouth)
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Post by Dalton on Jul 20, 2003 21:09:47 GMT -5
I jsut glanced over that long post again after I read some more of the Ep board (it improved, but..man, I am glad I dont dont usually go there!) and I realized that I hadn't mentioned my opinion of Giles actions in the whole deal.
Reprehensible is the word that comes to mind but I am again tempered with the knowledge of his reasoning for stifling Ben's life. Giles is truly trying to do the world a good turn in both instances. I can cut him some slack in that even tho' what he did was wrong. Situational ethics is always tricky and inevitably you lose if you play the game. However, I have to say I haven't seen a game yet that you don't lose eventually.
All this is neither here no there for our dear Headmaster Woods. He wanted revenge pure and simple. He wanted to take out mommy's killer. Didn't matter whether that killer would ever kill or again or not. That argument was jsut convenient for him to gain an ally in Giles.
So there you have it... Giles is light grey (bad actions done for the good with poor results) and Woods is a much darker grey (bad actions done for selfish personal motivations with bad results). All we can hope is even if Buffy has learned all she needs, that these two might learn a few things from her for the future.
Vlad
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Post by Dalton on Jul 20, 2003 21:11:25 GMT -5
Thanks for moving the board again. It was getting painful to wade through although gratifying that we have so many things to offer.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 20, 2003 21:11:49 GMT -5
Sorry, I never got your message. Will you please try again?
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Post by Dalton on Jul 20, 2003 21:12:22 GMT -5
I copied some of my posts from the Ep board and am compiling them into an essay. May I submit the finished product to the S3 site?
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Post by Dalton on Jul 20, 2003 21:13:11 GMT -5
Sue - I do know about that website, but hadn't thought to check it yet . . . thanks for the heads up. There is an especially good essay by Klymenistra (sp?).
I had mentioned Angel's attempted murder of Wes over on the ep board, because I really couldn't understand Angel being held up as a paragon of virtue (not that I didn't love the scene where he tried to kill Wes - I think that was the first Angel ep I ever saw, so the changes in both characters was stunning and interesting). No one commented so I was wondering, knowing I am no "Angel" expert, if I was way off base. But the TR essay mentions it to - and in fact, it does seem it was a "moment of extreme anger" and deliberately quite similar.
I really liked the parallels she noticed between Giles/Buffy and Mom/William. Also did anyone else catch how William came into the room, and looked for his mother's dead body on the couch? Later Buffy mentions finding Joyce on the couch.
Well - this will be a great, great episode for dissection.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jul 20, 2003 21:13:45 GMT -5
(This is an historic post.)
Vlad - Per Diane's suggestion - I was thinking an "essay" section would be nice on the site, to compliment the current Fiction and the Ep Analysis sections.
That way, if someone wants to expound on a particular topic that crosses over eps and Seasons - like "Spike as a fighter", etc - there is a place for that.
Anyone else with thoughts on that?
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Post by Dalton on Jul 20, 2003 21:14:34 GMT -5
I would rather go with a thread related to a topic or episode--as was done with Gigi--rather than essays, even though you and I, Spring (among others), are known to commit essays from time to time. I would regret any format that omits Patti's pithy one-liners, Robert's (intentionally) comic angst, etc. Essays can be there too, but I'd prefer an excerpted version of the actual discussion, with only off-topic posts being excluded. Kind of a diary of the discussion.
However, I would argue for those who wrote substantial posts being able to edit them into something more coherent before their inclusion, as Diane intends to do and I have done.
Of course, that would be contingent on its being possible for Vlad to digest six pages (or whatever) of posts, some quite long, into something manageable on a free website. I would like to hear from Vlad what he'd be happy and comfortable handling, and my recommendation would be contingent on that, since what I'm hoping for would, I assume, involve considerable work on his part.
Vlad, what do you find desirable/doable along these lines?
Nan Dibble
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Post by Dalton on Jul 20, 2003 21:15:08 GMT -5
Ahha, I see. Again, you made sense of a confusing point. It works for me.
Thanks, Nan.
deborah
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Post by Dalton on Jul 20, 2003 21:16:08 GMT -5
Vlad says: "Reprehensible is the word that comes to mind but I am again tempered with the knowledge of his reasoning for stifling Ben's life. Giles is truly trying to do the world a good turn in both instances."
Yes, I agree, but I would add that in the "Spike" instance, he is also - unconsciously - indulging personal interests. Spike, and his similarity to Giles' Ripper side, has always upset Giles. He has a very love/hate type of "attraction" to Spike. And of course, he is Buffy's defacto Dad, and his knowledge of Spike's sexual liason with Buffy must have upset and angered him underneath it all as well.
What really bothered me about Giles' actions was that he was treating Buffy as a child and he was lying to her and tricking her.
I can more easily forgive and understand his "decision" to off Spike, than I can this action. But I suspect Giles will redeem himself somehow here, because in the end, he loves Buffy very much. Maybe it will be as you suggested before Vlad, and he will sacrifice himself to save her.
Spring Summers
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Post by Dalton on Jul 20, 2003 21:16:46 GMT -5
Nan - why couldn't we have both, perhaps? An essay section for those who might wish to contribute independent essays?
I agree that I don't want to see the "discussion" thing replaced.
But maybe there isn't enough interest in an independent "Essay" section to warrant it.
Spring Summers
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