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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 1:23:02 GMT -5
Spring, you can't see Wood killing Spike in some sneaky way?
You're probably right.
He certainly wouldn't pretend to be taking care of him, then put him in a cross covered garage and attack him with elbow braced metal studded gloves.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 1:23:32 GMT -5
I'm for it, but I vote to have the essays on our web site, with comments posted here. I'd rather keep all our stuff here, not spread all over the various boards. I like things neat and am easily confused.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 1:23:59 GMT -5
Glad you agree. I think Spike is a grownup now, but I think he's still going to wear that coat and somehow get bathroom time to bleach his hair. No sense in being all fanatical about maturity.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 1:25:20 GMT -5
I went and read post #375 as requested. Then I went back and read, from the first 12 pages, the posts of S'cubies and a few others ("Witchy Willow," "Ann Nichols").
You folks have fought the good fight. And I was not there to help, although called upon both there and here.
Attack is nearly always polarizing, and one ends up taking a more extreme version of one's real position when it's being held up for hostile scrutiny. I think it's only possible to discuss when getting as near as possible to the truth of something objective--in this case the episode--is more important than (a) expressing one's own opinion (b) emoting (c) refuting rival views (even the ones that agree with yours). I think there must be some minimum agreement of argumentation--of debating the issue, not the person stating that issue; and trying to set aside one's own prejudices and partisanships, insofar as it's possible--to have an enlightening, much less an enjoyable, discussion. One must want to see the thing truly more than one wants to be Right...and commended for being so by others.
We have convened around one basic assumption--that Spike is a fascinating and attractive character. That's a given, here. From that premise, each of us tries to contribute what they are uniquely qualified to see and to say from their own little window, to have as many viewpoints as possible on the thing, the episode, the character we are all interested in examining and understanding. To see it whole, with all its ramifications and implications--where it came from, what it is, and where it's going. Not a whole lot of ego in that, and I've never "heard" a lot of ego here. Just ideas tossed around, shared, examined. And I enjoy that immensely and try to contribute to that free exchange whatever I can, hoping others may enjoy what I may be able to bring to the table.
We are not in an adversarial relationship to one another. Nobody is winning. Nobody loses. If I'm wrong (and it turns out that I AM, which I'll address in another post), I say so and try to eat my crow graciously. As I've seen others doing, and try to emulate.
I cannot function in an environment where I have to prove my right to speak, to be listened to, and to have an opinion of any sort. I cannot talk to people whose chief concern is to win, not to learn.
I'm sorry I was not there for you who posted on the episode board and (mostly) kept your tempers against outrageous provocation. But I will not fight that fight. I do not want to win. I want to share, and have been priveleged to do so here, and learn better manners, and take away more than I could ever have brought or enjoyed all by myself without the insights of others.
Maybe I would have lost, and been shouted down. I would not have liked that. Maybe I would have said something stupid in the heat of argument and rightly been flayed to pieces for it. I am nobody's 300 pound gorilla--not even my own--except in my own classroom, and it's almost 20 years since I had one of those.
I admire the fortitude of those who fish such hostile waters. I am not brave enough for that. I do not want to win.
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 1:26:09 GMT -5
Patti-
Since Spike is a vampire with supernatural powers isn't it possible to see all of those "precautions" as levelling the playing field?
I mean Faith "tricked" Angel into thinking she was trying to hit him with a huge iron thingamajig and when he easily swerved to avoid it - it knocked out the window and sunlight flooded in which incapacitated him (which was her original intention.) Was that cheating since they both possess other worldly powers?
I think both Wood and Spike are deeply flawed, conflicted beings who have to continually re-assess their mission.
I still do not entirely trust either character- I think Wood is entirely capable of letting the world go hang whilst he pursues his vendetta against Spike and I think that Spike who truly loves Buffy could be prevailed upon to be "evil" if he doubted her love.
(Bye the bye I kind of think that is why Buffy attends to him at the expense of the others- she kind of sees them as more independently"good". She is still Spike's center)
I would love to know what Xander will make of Wood's and Gile's assassination attempt? Somehow I cannot see him coming on board with it- as much as he detests Spike- he has little patience with friend's betrayal of one another.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 1:26:45 GMT -5
I think I was wrong about Spike offering Wood an apology. I took Spike's "I'm sorry" to be addressed to Wood, not to his memory of his mother. In reading through the episode board, the point was made that Spike's apology was to his mother, and that strikes me as persuasive. So when I said Spike had apologized, I was wrong.
Last feather going down.
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 1:27:23 GMT -5
Spring, I re-read my own post and it sounds harsh. TO you, I mean. I didn't mean to sound sarcastic about your opinion. It doesn't change my opinion of Wood, you understand, I just don't want you to think I discount yours. You so obviously know what you're talking about with Buffy. Usually. :-)
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 1:27:52 GMT -5
Changing topic, my birthdate is on my ScoopMe profile. Anybody can pick it up from there.
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 1:28:27 GMT -5
I don't put deception past Wood, obviously. He lured Spike into a trap, and he was deceiving Buffy and really using Giles.
But no, I can't see him poisoing Spike or killing him from afar. I think he wants to be there, in Spike's face. I think he wants to see him suffer, and I think he wants to BEST him, and Spike to see it and know it.
So I can't see him killing him from afar would be a better way to put it than "sneaky" way. And there is no way Wood can win in combat with Spike, the way he wants to.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 1:29:39 GMT -5
Ellie,
You said...(and I've put my comments in parens inside yours) And I'm not screaming when I capitalize, I'm emphasizing..
Since Spike is a vampire with supernatural powers isn't it possible to see all of those "precautions" as levelling the playing field? (No, I don't see it that way. Wood pretended to be Spike's HELPER - pretended to be watching over him - and then tricked him into coming into that cross covered environment and then triggered him so that he was not in control, and then beat him senseless. Level playing field? Dang, I'd hate to see one with ditches in it.)
I mean Faith "tricked" Angel into thinking she was trying to hit him with a huge iron thingamajig and when he easily swerved to avoid it - it knocked out the window and sunlight flooded in which incapacitated him (which was her original intention.) Was that cheating since they both possess other worldly powers? (Faith never pretended to be Angelus friend. He knew she was there to defeat him. She followed him into his territory and he was evil at the time, he was not souled Angel, he was Angelus, the villain. Spike has a soul and saved Wood's LIFE the night before. As in, saved Wood's LIFE. Wood knows he has a soul, Buffy told him by episode Get it Done, and it was mentioned again this week.)
I think Wood is entirely capable of letting the world go hang whilst he pursues his vendetta against Spike (yeah, I agree with that part)
and I think that Spike who truly loves Buffy could be prevailed upon to be "evil" if he doubted her love. (I disagree with this very much BECAUSE of this week's episode. The entire point of the episode in my opinion is to show that both Buffy and Spike are now functioning on adult, independent levels. Buffy is no longer leaning on Giles and Spike is no longer leaning on Buffy. I am utterly convinced Spike could not be persuaded to be evil if he doubted her love because he doesn't think she loves him now. He isn't expecting anything from her at all more than she's given him, which is respect and trust. Not saying he wouldn't be overjoyed to find that she does love him. But his actions don't depend on her love for him. They used to, but not now. Not since he got his soul back.)
She is still Spike's center (see my answer above.)
I would love to know what Xander will make of Wood's and Gile's assassination attempt? Somehow I cannot see him coming on board with it- as much as he detests Spike- he has little patience with friend's betrayal of one another. (I don't think Xander detests Spike anymore. He did 2 things in this episode that make me say that. He patted Spike on the shoulder, and when Anya was doing her 'free pass' rant, he looked at her with quite a 'hello? Remember it was YOU killing the students' look. )
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 1:30:30 GMT -5
Something else though....when Spike mumbled 'I'm sorry' (to his mother) Wood said something to the effect of 'You're SORRY? You think an apology helps?'
So...all those people who said Spike shoulda apologized...why? Wood was infuriated by what he thought was an apology.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 1:31:04 GMT -5
OH...ok, I get it now. I agree with you!
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 1:31:33 GMT -5
Nan, we're both Virgos.. Mine is Sept 12. This explains much about us. :-) If you believe that sort of thing, which I don't although it does sort of work out a lot of the time.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 1:32:04 GMT -5
Patti--HUH? WHAT do you get? I don't follow this at all.
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Post by Dalton on Jul 25, 2003 1:32:56 GMT -5
Patti - definitely, apologies were absolutely useless.
What really got me was people on the ep board saying Spike had never shown any remorse or taken responsibility for his crimes.
This is completely untrue. He's been nearly paralyzed by guilt all season. He told Buffy he could barely live with what he had done, and it sure seemed true. He was ready for Buffy to stake him for what he had done under The First's influence, and he practically begged Buffy to stake him in her basement - and didn't agree when Buffy said it wasn't him who "waited for those girls."
I would post this over on the ep board, but it is hard to be motivated to get into this much detail with someone who misses that much of the text. It kind of . . . I don't know . . . gave me the feeling that it would be no use. I was flabbergasted by the claim that Spike had never expressed any remorse or accepted any responsibility.
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