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Post by raenstorm on Feb 17, 2006 16:56:08 GMT -5
Rae, great job filling in! I really liked the connections you made between royalty and the hoi polloi. I totally missed Bambi Gasm being a drag *queen.* Hee! (I mean, I knew s/he was a transvestite, but I didn't get the royalty slant). I also liked the hot/cold comparison, the water themes, and the references to fables and fairy tales. And there was the obvious shout-out to Hamlet. I hope Hannah isn't going to go crazy and drown herself when she discovers Logan's true motivation! So much packed into one episode! That makes the fact that they're delaying new episodes for several weeks all the more frustrating! Why not dump Sunset Beach or whatever it's called, and show Season 1 Veronica Mars eps as a lead-in to fresh shows? Mess with the show that is causing the problem, not the show that actually has a chance of attracting viewers! Heh, sorry about that. I probably shouldn't sully feedback to Rae for her review with a rant about UPN. Thanks! The royalty thing was the first that jumped out at me because of the social structure in high school. School dances promote the idea of having a royal party... we elect kings and queens for everything so I tend to look for that in high school settings. And, since I see Logan as the Social King of Neptune (you'd think Duncan since I'm sure he's more the type to be elected Prom King, but really Logan is the one we see controlling things socially), the minute he made the comment about the hoi polloi I jumped on it. Heh. The drag queen doesn't really fit but it was too good to pass up. I'm really starting to wonder about Dick. It's like he tries too hard at times so it makes me wonder if he's got a lil' something to hide. Yikes, I didn't even think about Hannah's reaction to Logan's scheme and it's possible connection to Hamlet. That would fit with the water in Neptune so I hope she doesn't go that route. Heh. Rant all you want! I'm not looking forward to the wait but I'm excited that we'll get all the episodes in a row. No more breaks... should be exciting.
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Post by raenstorm on Feb 17, 2006 16:59:52 GMT -5
Rae!! What a fab analysis! So much good stuff to comment on . . . where should I begin? Loved the ride metaphor (but then again, I'm a rollercoaster addict and my favorite part is the "hang time" in the first car before the whole thing kicks loose and tears around the track). You found so many examples in this episode of class differences! I noticed a lot of them as I was watching, but I don't think I really saw how completely the idea was woven into the entire story. Some of the things that you pointed out that particulary struck me were: the teachers that are becoming vocal about the class differences between them and their students; the examples of 09'er "royalty" versus the hoi poloi; Thumper and Weevil, Jackie and Madison demonstrating there are layers of status within the classes; Woody's attempt to use Terrance Cook to get the support of '09er minorities. It just all seems to be giving us such a strong vibe this season, that it must play a large role in the bus crash. Eetah over your thoughts on Dick - not complicated, but dangerous. The comparison to Aaron Echolls is chilling for several reasons. Not only because of what it might mean to the events of this season, but because of what it says about his friendship with Logan. Your bullet points were funny and insightful and delightfully thorough!! All in all, a completely great analysis, Rae! Brava! Thanks, Lola! I'm glad you enjoyed it Oh, I think we're constantly getting conked over the head with the class stuff. I want to go back and start listing it all out in each of the episodes because, after noting all the instances here, I realized that it's been there in subtle ways all along. So, definitely a factor in one of our mysteries I'm sure. Ohhhh. I didn't even think about what Dick's being somehwat like Aaron would say about his friendship with Logan. Oh, I like that! Thanks again
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Post by raenstorm on Feb 17, 2006 17:11:03 GMT -5
Okay, so I'm just now getting to commenting. I'm finding myself real glad we have a month of hiatus. I never would have had time for an ep this week... DAMN, Rae. That's some great analysis there. I love how you organized this review. Everything as a piece of a ride? What a fantastic idea! I wish I could give you some more constructive feedback but I’m abit flail-y. Nothing is more exciting than reading a review about an ep I originally hated, and consequently makes me love it by the end. Jackie’s quick fall from grace could lead to an interesting study of Neptune High’s 09er “royalty” and social standings. Logan’s father is arrested for the murder of Lilly Kane and the attempted murder of Veronica. Logan himself is accused of murdering someone and, yet, he’s still the Social King of Neptune High. Dick’s dad flees the country because he’s been scamming millions out of people and Dick hasn’t suffered a bit socially. Jackie’s dad is only accused of being involved in the bus crash and she’s fallen to the last rung of the social ladder. What makes the difference in Jackie’s case?
I must say, that really did annoy me. Add in the soiled Kane name also. I really do wish they’d at least make an knowledgement to it somehow. Though I did hear one person point out the gender lines in it all. That perhaps they are trying to show that being a girl in that high school caste system is a damn lot harder. Girl’s are heartless on other girls in stomp-worthy positions. That is also consistent with the history between Jackie and Veronica. Still, Veronica does well by not continuing to jump to quick conclusions about Jackie. Perhaps seeing a bit of herself in Jackie, bringing us back to Jackie’s comparison between the two of them.
You know, I got so caught up in this whole mess, I didn’t even realize that though Rob wanted to get us to like Jackie, he also had a more important job. To get Veronica to like her. I can’t believe I didn’t think of that before. Kind of amazing how the majority of the audience has completely sided with Veronica on everything. Maybe we should be reminded of her biased narrative? In a sad twist of fate, where one Mars gains respect for one Cook another Mars loses a great deal of a respect another Cook. For better and for worse, our first impressions aren’t always right.
Ooo. Nice catch. Oh, being irrational for eps really doesn’t work well. I seem to have missed all the good stuff… The first few bites are always the best; they give you a little spark of energy and leave you craving more. Even when you start to realize you’ve had too many, you keeping eating. Then at the end of the day, when you’re leaving the park, it’s been a good day and you’re smiling but you can’t ignore the nauseous feeling in the pit of your stomach. Not quite enough to make you throw up, just enough to sour your excitement a bit and make you curse the evil of sweets.
Wow. This completely describes the whole episode for me. Excellent analogy! In a way, Dick reminded me of Aaron in this episode. He swings back and forth between simplistic asshole to raging Dick so seamlessly that it’s almost scary.
YIKES! Now I'm scared... Especially now that he and Mac are a team, they appear to be cute and cuddlely but together they have a dangerous combination of know-how and money.
My thoughts exactly. I can’t wait… Ah, you pulled all these themes together so well!! I’m so glad someone was able to go through and find all this in the script. I didn't even notice the further class division commentary. Ack. · Liquid/Water/Sea: Appropriately, we often get a lot of liquid/water imagery in Neptune. This episode is no exception.
More water metaphors! How did I miss them! Sexual Innuendos: This one is fairly obvious but we had a lot of sexual references in this episode. I’m not sure that these will ever end up being important but just in case, I made a list.
It is a Diane script. I’d say that explains it all. But the mountains! HA! What’s your poison, little boy? You know, I’m a little sad that this is the one episode we don’t have Logan biting into an apple but, since he’s actually the evil witch tempting the innocent girl this time, I guess I’ll overlook the chance for that obvious symbolism.
Oh,no! We’ve been deprived of more Lg/apple posts! And perhaps Logan in a cape! This is quite sad. Rob deserves a scolding… “I can’t help but notice that you’re separated from the herd and I’m concerned. Predators and all that.” I’ll say. Does that make Logan the wolf in sheep’s clothing?
Ooooo… And, that folks, is Veronica Mars the Ride. Push on the lap bar to release it, gather your belongings, and exit the episode to the right.
Aw, such a cute little gimmick. It pulled together the episode so nicely! What a great job!! Thanks, Shan! High praise indeed... I'm glad I could give you something to enjoy about this episode because I know how much you didn't like it I saw the comment about gender playing a role in the school social stuff but I'm not sure I buy it. Mostly because it's almost always a guy who makes the social judgments at Neptune High. Look at how Logan makes the decision that everyone should accept Veronica and they do? Duncan was too passive in the past that I'm pretty sure it was Logan who also started Veronica's fall from grace. Dick is the one who first makes comments about Jackie in the parking lot. That's not to say girls didn't first start that treatment of her earlier in the day but that's not what we see. We see one of the people we know who controls social acceptance at Neptune pick on her. Of course, Dick hasn't been allowed to do that to Veronica lately so maybe he's just taking that out on Jackie? Interesting that we never see Logan approve what's going on with Jackie because how could he? And, yet, if he didn't they'd have to explain why people aren't listening to him. Hmm, I wonder if Logan is facing a fall from grace himself (heh, which... ok, sorry, amusing myself since Hannah means "grace" so that'd be interesting if she ends up being what actually causes his fall from grace) - the fact that others are controlling the social factors at Neptune because he's too distracted dealing with "real life" is a little telling. Ok, sorry about that, got distracted by my thoughts while replying to you! You know, I got so caught up in this whole mess, I didn’t even realize that though Rob wanted to get us to like Jackie, he also had a more important job. To get Veronica to like her. I can’t believe I didn’t think of that before.You know, that's funny. It's the one thing that surprises me about Rob - that he doesn't get that the reason the audience doens't like Jackie is because Veronica doesn't like her. I think it's because he writes with the knowledge that the narrative is biased in Veronica's favor. He knows the "truth" and he knows how Veronica sees things. He can easily seperate the two but I think he forgets that the audience has a harder time with that because we see everythign with Veronica's eyes and it's sometimes easy to forget that she's got her own interpretations. So, it's funny to me that he was all like "why don't you guys like Jackie?!" Ha! Yes, yes, you should always be scared of Dick! ;D Ooooo…Actually, reading that in your comments made me realize I missed the obvious chance to wonder if Logan is the wolf in sheep's pink bunny's clothing. Damn! That would have been cute. ETA: On the social status/gender thing, the last time we really saw a female make the decision that it was ok to accept someone or not was with Lilly and Yolanda. In Like A Virgin, it turns out that females are behind the whole thing but it's done purposely to manipulate the guys into breaking up with their girlfriends, thus changing their status. So, while I think girls are especially viscious about such things, they don't seem to be the ones actually controlling social status at Neptune.
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Post by raenstorm on Feb 17, 2006 17:17:00 GMT -5
They didn't, though. Bring back the actual guy in the pictures. It's a different guy... they just photoshopped the pictures to make it look like it was him. Oh, well, now that's just sad... Yeah, I know but maybe that guy couldn't act?
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Post by zimshan on Feb 18, 2006 0:32:33 GMT -5
I saw the comment about gender playing a role in the school social stuff but I'm not sure I buy it. Mostly because it's almost always a guy who makes the social judgments at Neptune High. Look at how Logan makes the decision that everyone should accept Veronica and they do? Duncan was too passive in the past that I'm pretty sure it was Logan who also started Veronica's fall from grace. Dick is the one who first makes comments about Jackie in the parking lot. That's not to say girls didn't first start that treatment of her earlier in the day but that's not what we see. We see one of the people we know who controls social acceptance at Neptune pick on her. Of course, Dick hasn't been allowed to do that to Veronica lately so maybe he's just taking that out on Jackie? Interesting that we never see Logan approve what's going on with Jackie because how could he? And, yet, if he didn't they'd have to explain why people aren't listening to him. Hmm, I wonder if Logan is facing a fall from grace himself (heh, which... ok, sorry, amusing myself since Hannah means "grace" so that'd be interesting if she ends up being what actually causes his fall from grace) - the fact that others are controlling the social factors at Neptune because he's too distracted dealing with "real life" is a little telling. Ok, sorry about that, got distracted by my thoughts while replying to you! ---------------------- ETA: On the social status/gender thing, the last time we really saw a female make the decision that it was ok to accept someone or not was with Lilly and Yolanda. In Like A Virgin, it turns out that females are behind the whole thing but it's done purposely to manipulate the guys into breaking up with their girlfriends, thus changing their status. So, while I think girls are especially viscious about such things, they don't seem to be the ones actually controlling social status at Neptune. Hey, I loved the 'fall from grace' bit. Very interesting... Hmm, yea, I guess you are right. It does seem to be the guy who makes the social decisions in the 09er fold. SThe question this year is, how much influence do Duncan, Logan, and Dick really have this year? See this whole thing just brings me back to what I was wondering back in the beginning of the season. What ARE the social standings of everyone this year? It really hasn't been defined much at all. We've haven't been shown anything one way or another, whether LitB's events changed their status at all. We're addressing the big clash between the two side, the 09ers and the non09ers. But how is that 09er hierarchy working this year? Duncan? Did his standing go down because his parents were basically run out of town? Or because decided to date Veronica? (who whether or not she and her father solved the Lilly Kane Case, still should be clouded by the Pomroy Party Events) The extention of that is how the whole family perception is these days. Has this effect the company which supports the town? Which would really unsettle everyone. And then over to Logan. Did he really not experience ANY backlash from the fact that his father turned out to be a MURDERER? If solving the murder really was enough to let Veronica back into the fold, wouldn't Lilly's killer REALLY matter? I just don't see any place where Logan should still be considered top dog of the 09ers, not after this. But then stack that murder charge on top of it. Did THAT seriously not effect his head honcho standing? Yea, yea, killing a biker, woohoo. But it feels ridiculous that all his minions would still be behind him. Yes, he still has his money, but I'd believe the rich would want to stay in the good limelight, and not be surrounded by the bad. Which would throw him down a rung or two. That goes for Duncan too. Umm, and Dick. The whole problem is we haven't been shown one way or the other. Cafeteria should be the easiest place to define this, but only seeing them three times this season, you still really can't define it. As we've seen so far, Duncan sits alone or with Veronica at lunch (which doesn't help us at all) while Logan, well we see him once laughing with everyone and another time with Dick. But that really doesn't help me much. Which lends hands to is Dick and Beaver really the only ones that have stuck by Logan? We haven't really seen anyone else talk to him this year. And then I found it also weird how Dick talked to Logan and Duncan fine and dandy, way before Logan and Duncan made up. And that's one I was always interested in getting defined. How the 09er pack worked with the two top boys not talking to each other. Did people take sides? Did people just listen to one and not the other? I don't know, this season has hiked me all up on class relations and now I just want to know more. And whoa, I think that's enough rambling for today...
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Post by Lola m on Feb 18, 2006 13:36:51 GMT -5
I saw the comment about gender playing a role in the school social stuff but I'm not sure I buy it. Mostly because it's almost always a guy who makes the social judgments at Neptune High. Look at how Logan makes the decision that everyone should accept Veronica and they do? Duncan was too passive in the past that I'm pretty sure it was Logan who also started Veronica's fall from grace. Dick is the one who first makes comments about Jackie in the parking lot. That's not to say girls didn't first start that treatment of her earlier in the day but that's not what we see. We see one of the people we know who controls social acceptance at Neptune pick on her. Of course, Dick hasn't been allowed to do that to Veronica lately so maybe he's just taking that out on Jackie? Interesting that we never see Logan approve what's going on with Jackie because how could he? And, yet, if he didn't they'd have to explain why people aren't listening to him. Hmm, I wonder if Logan is facing a fall from grace himself (heh, which... ok, sorry, amusing myself since Hannah means "grace" so that'd be interesting if she ends up being what actually causes his fall from grace) - the fact that others are controlling the social factors at Neptune because he's too distracted dealing with "real life" is a little telling. Ok, sorry about that, got distracted by my thoughts while replying to you! ---------------------- ETA: On the social status/gender thing, the last time we really saw a female make the decision that it was ok to accept someone or not was with Lilly and Yolanda. In Like A Virgin, it turns out that females are behind the whole thing but it's done purposely to manipulate the guys into breaking up with their girlfriends, thus changing their status. So, while I think girls are especially viscious about such things, they don't seem to be the ones actually controlling social status at Neptune. Hey, I loved the 'fall from grace' bit. Very interesting... Hmm, yea, I guess you are right. It does seem to be the guy who makes the social decisions in the 09er fold. SThe question this year is, how much influence do Duncan, Logan, and Dick really have this year? See this whole thing just brings me back to what I was wondering back in the beginning of the season. What ARE the social standings of everyone this year? It really hasn't been defined much at all. We've haven't been shown anything one way or another, whether LitB's events changed their status at all. We're addressing the big clash between the two side, the 09ers and the non09ers. But how is that 09er hierarchy working this year? Duncan? Did his standing go down because his parents were basically run out of town? Or because decided to date Veronica? (who whether or not she and her father solved the Lilly Kane Case, still should be clouded by the Pomroy Party Events) The extention of that is how the whole family perception is these days. Has this effect the company which supports the town? Which would really unsettle everyone. And then over to Logan. Did he really not experience ANY backlash from the fact that his father turned out to be a MURDERER? If solving the murder really was enough to let Veronica back into the fold, wouldn't Lilly's killer REALLY matter? I just don't see any place where Logan should still be considered top dog of the 09ers, not after this. But then stack that murder charge on top of it. Did THAT seriously not effect his head honcho standing? Yea, yea, killing a biker, woohoo. But it feels ridiculous that all his minions would still be behind him. Yes, he still has his money, but I'd believe the rich would want to stay in the good limelight, and not be surrounded by the bad. Which would throw him down a rung or two. That goes for Duncan too. Umm, and Dick. The whole problem is we haven't been shown one way or the other. Cafeteria should be the easiest place to define this, but only seeing them three times this season, you still really can't define it. As we've seen so far, Duncan sits alone or with Veronica at lunch (which doesn't help us at all) while Logan, well we see him once laughing with everyone and another time with Dick. But that really doesn't help me much. Which lends hands to is Dick and Beaver really the only ones that have stuck by Logan? We haven't really seen anyone else talk to him this year. And then I found it also weird how Dick talked to Logan and Duncan fine and dandy, way before Logan and Duncan made up. And that's one I was always interested in getting defined. How the 09er pack worked with the two top boys not talking to each other. Did people take sides? Did people just listen to one and not the other? I don't know, this season has hiked me all up on class relations and now I just want to know more. And whoa, I think that's enough rambling for today... **nods to all of this** I think we haven't seen enough of the dymanics at the school yet to really know exactly how they've been affected.
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Post by Sue on Feb 25, 2006 19:56:56 GMT -5
Rae has written one of the best VM reviews EVER! I love this opener. So appropriate! Truer words were rarely written. (You wrote this regarding Ms. Hauser's son, but that hardly matters since it applies to every single child we've met in Neptune. One of the good things about Duncan taking his kid the heck out of there.) I loved, loved, loved this observation. Sorry, got off track. Really appreciated having the Keith:Veronica parallels pointed out to me. I recall last season when Keith was so sure that Mr. Kane murdered Lilly---much like Veronica jumps to presumptuous conclusions.
Thanks. I knew that naming her Ophelia was significant but years wasted majoring in math kept me from really knowing why.
And---I appreciate Rob reminding us that Weevil is no choir boy. REally, stealing, framing Thumper (even if he does deserve it), involving his niece. RT has made very clear that even if Weevil draws the line at some behaviors he is still very much a not nice person in many ways.
Which brings up this question:
I'm going to disagree with you on that one. Yes, I do think Veronica has a bit of an emotional "bond" with Weevil---in that she thinks she sees or understands some of what drives him: being an outcast, etc. But I also think she cut him some slack because: a) she felt that Thumper deserved what he got and so did Ms. Hauser; b) she felt no real loyalty to Madison and the '09ers planning the trip and didn't care if they got the rest of the money back and c) the more she has on Weevil the more chance she has of calling in favors from him to help her out in the future.
I think she better be careful though---I don't think Weevil is at all "safe."
NOw, regarding Jackie:
I agree to some extent, but I think they also turned on Jackie because she had no history with them and had no store of Goodwill. Most of the '09ers have known Dick and Logan for a long time and relate to them as "fun guys." Jackie hasn't been there that long and (from what we've seen) has pretty much been a bitch to everyone except Wallace and her one girlfriend.
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I loved your analysis of Logan's pursuit of Hannah and this:
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Dick:
Agree completely. I wonder which hurt more---that the "woman" wasn't or that the humiliation was engineered by Cassidy.
And I also agree with:
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I loved your listings:
"Royalty vs. Hoi Polloi"
"Who's Your Daddy?" And, I'm noticing that, with the exception of Dick and Cassidy, it's mostly Father:Daughter combos: Terrance & Jackie; Mr. Sinclair & Madison; Doctor Dad & Hannah; Weevil & Ophelia; Woody & Gia; Keith & Veronica.
"Cold vs. Hot"
"Liquid/Water/Sea"
"Sexual Innuendos"
"Magic/Fairy Tales/Fables"
"Animals"
"Pop Culture"
"Continuity"
Man there was a lot packed into this episode and you sure noticed a lot. When I watched it, I had no idea.
I loved the pop culture list --- and know I wouldn't have caught most of those references.
As for the continuity stuff---well, I might have been aware of vague nods to previous episodes but I would never have been able to place them specifically. [Do you have that all in your head, or did you spend hours researching?]
Superb, superior, magnificent job, Rae!
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Post by leftylady on Mar 4, 2006 16:39:51 GMT -5
I'm kind of late to the festivities but wanted to say: Wow, great review, Rae. You really took us and the episode on a quite a ride. My head is still spinning!
And I take it your personal thrill ride to San Diego was a blast too!
I've been away for a while and have been rushing to catch up on my reading since then. It hasn't been fun lately at the office. I'm starting to think I'm working for Wolfram and Hart. But I'm enjoying everyone else's posting (and the reviews!!) when I can finally get to them.
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Post by Lola m on Mar 4, 2006 20:33:18 GMT -5
I'm kind of late to the festivities but wanted to say: Wow, great review, Rae. You really took us and the episode on a quite a ride. My head is still spinning! And I take it your personal thrill ride to San Diego was a blast too! I've been away for a while and have been rushing to catch up on my reading since then. It hasn't been fun lately at the office. I'm starting to think I'm working for Wolfram and Hart. But I'm enjoying everyone else's posting (and the reviews!!) when I can finally get to them. So sorry about the W&H-ness of your life! Please come escape here as often as you can!
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