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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 22, 2006 23:05:44 GMT -5
Whew! No deep thoughts to add, except...snakes. Snakes and the Irish. St. Patrick drove the snakes out of Ireland. Dunno if it's at all relevant. Just, snakes and the Fitzpatricks. I love this show. Bad guy Liam wearing a claddagh ring. Coincidence? And they've been really hammering home the Irish references too. The sticker on the car window, Liam talking about the luck of the Irish, etc. The whole "Irish gang" thing kind of bothers me. I mean - do Irish-American criminal gangs really still exist? Weren't they mostly already out of existence by the early 20th century? And if they do still exist somewhere in the USA, would they exist in Southern California?? I confess I don't know much about this, but off the top of my head, it seems so very, very unlikely. I went to Catholic schools, which were about half Irish and half Italian, and I remember several very big Irish Catholic families, but no "gangs." The Irish are pretty well assimilated anymore. Am I the only one who thinks the Irish-gang thing seems like a bit of a Politically Correct cop-out? Not that I have any better ideas for Rob Thomas - if you give a bad-guy gang a race/nationality identity, you're going to irritate someone, I guess. I suppose they could have managed to have this sort of gang- a big family that's into crime - without all the heavy ethnic references. |
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Post by Sue on Apr 23, 2006 8:27:50 GMT -5
And they've been really hammering home the Irish references too. The sticker on the car window, Liam talking about the luck of the Irish, etc. The whole "Irish gang" thing kind of bothers me. I mean - do Irish-American criminal gangs really still exist? Weren't they mostly already out of existence by the early 20th century? And if they do still exist somewhere in the USA, would they exist in Southern California?? I confess I don't know much about this, but off the top of my head, it seems so very, very unlikely. I went to Catholic schools, which were about half Irish and half Italian, and I remember several very big Irish Catholic families, but no "gangs." The Irish are pretty well assimilated anymore. Am I the only one who thinks the Irish-gang thing seems like a bit of a Politically Correct cop-out? Not that I have any better ideas for Rob Thomas - if you give a bad-guy gang a race/nationality identity, you're going to irritate someone, I guess. I suppose they could have managed to have this sort of gang- a big family that's into crime - without all the heavy ethnic references. Well, I never assumed that the entire gang was Irish. Just that the Fitzpatricks (as a family) are sort of the drug crime lords of Neptune. And, as there are 11 or 12 brothers (1 a priest) that a lot of the "gang" members all just happen to be actual Fitzpatricks. Then they have other people working for them (like the PCHers) but their only true loyalties are going to be to the (literal) family. So---I didn't think of it so much as an "Irish" gang as a "gang of Fitzpatricks" (with some hangers on). Could have been any nationality but being Irish helps explain the Catholic which helps explain the large number of brothers AND allows for the priest. |
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Apr 23, 2006 8:37:16 GMT -5
The whole "Irish gang" thing kind of bothers me. I mean - do Irish-American criminal gangs really still exist? Weren't they mostly already out of existence by the early 20th century? And if they do still exist somewhere in the USA, would they exist in Southern California?? I confess I don't know much about this, but off the top of my head, it seems so very, very unlikely. I went to Catholic schools, which were about half Irish and half Italian, and I remember several very big Irish Catholic families, but no "gangs." The Irish are pretty well assimilated anymore. Am I the only one who thinks the Irish-gang thing seems like a bit of a Politically Correct cop-out? Not that I have any better ideas for Rob Thomas - if you give a bad-guy gang a race/nationality identity, you're going to irritate someone, I guess. I suppose they could have managed to have this sort of gang- a big family that's into crime - without all the heavy ethnic references. Well, I never assumed that the entire gang was Irish. Just that the Fitzpatricks (as a family) are sort of the drug crime lords of Neptune. And, as there are 11 or 12 brothers (1 a priest) that a lot of the "gang" members all just happen to be actual Fitzpatricks. Then they have other people working for them (like the PCHers) but their only true loyalties are going to be to the (literal) family. So---I didn't think of it so much as an "Irish" gang as a "gang of Fitzpatricks" (with some hangers on). Could have been any nationality but being Irish helps explain the Catholic which helps explain the large number of brothers AND allows for the priest. 1. Fitzpatrick: a very Irish name 2. Irish mafia is alive and well in Boston at the very least. |
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Post by Sue on Apr 23, 2006 8:42:40 GMT -5
Well, I never assumed that the entire gang was Irish. Just that the Fitzpatricks (as a family) are sort of the drug crime lords of Neptune. And, as there are 11 or 12 brothers (1 a priest) that a lot of the "gang" members all just happen to be actual Fitzpatricks. Then they have other people working for them (like the PCHers) but their only true loyalties are going to be to the (literal) family. So---I didn't think of it so much as an "Irish" gang as a "gang of Fitzpatricks" (with some hangers on). Could have been any nationality but being Irish helps explain the Catholic which helps explain the large number of brothers AND allows for the priest. 1. Fitzpatrick: a very Irish name 2. Irish mafia is alive and well in Boston at the very least. As to #1, yes I understood that by naming them Fitzpatrick (rather than Johnson) he was identifying them as Irish (for the reasons mentioned above). But I didn't expand that to think that the whole gang was therefore Irish. Of course making them Irish also helps account for intense family loyalty and allows for lots of visual cues like the leprachaun and the ring. And Liam really is quite Angelus like, yes. |
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Post by zimshan on Apr 23, 2006 11:19:51 GMT -5
The whole "Irish gang" thing kind of bothers me. I mean - do Irish-American criminal gangs really still exist? Weren't they mostly already out of existence by the early 20th century? And if they do still exist somewhere in the USA, would they exist in Southern California?? I confess I don't know much about this, but off the top of my head, it seems so very, very unlikely. I went to Catholic schools, which were about half Irish and half Italian, and I remember several very big Irish Catholic families, but no "gangs." The Irish are pretty well assimilated anymore. Am I the only one who thinks the Irish-gang thing seems like a bit of a Politically Correct cop-out? Not that I have any better ideas for Rob Thomas - if you give a bad-guy gang a race/nationality identity, you're going to irritate someone, I guess. I suppose they could have managed to have this sort of gang- a big family that's into crime - without all the heavy ethnic references. Well, I never assumed that the entire gang was Irish. Just that the Fitzpatricks (as a family) are sort of the drug crime lords of Neptune. And, as there are 11 or 12 brothers (1 a priest) that a lot of the "gang" members all just happen to be actual Fitzpatricks. Then they have other people working for them (like the PCHers) but their only true loyalties are going to be to the (literal) family. So---I didn't think of it so much as an "Irish" gang as a "gang of Fitzpatricks" (with some hangers on). Could have been any nationality but being Irish helps explain the Catholic which helps explain the large number of brothers AND allows for the priest. Well, I've just seen it as them really hammering home the Irish themes to further the seasonal theme they've got going with identity. There's been a bunch of things to tie people together, family bonds and the like. Things to define who people are, what they can establish themselves as. We've had a number pointed nationality mentions over the season, highlighting German, French, Italian, Spanish. There's been repeated mentions to Asians. The African American ties where highlighted in 'Wallace and Reshard Go To White Castle' with the black fraternity. So my take has been that all the Irish mentions have gone out of their way to establish them as an Irish family as an identity issue, but certainly not as a statement about the Irish and gangs... |
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Post by Michelle on Apr 23, 2006 12:21:09 GMT -5
Well, I've just seen it as them really hammering home the Irish themes to further the seasonal theme they've got going with identity. There's been a bunch of things to tie people together, family bonds and the like. Things to define who people are, what they can establish themselves as. We've had a number pointed nationality mentions over the season, highlighting German, French, Italian, Spanish. There's been repeated mentions to Asians. The African American ties where highlighted in 'Wallace and Reshard Go To White Castle' with the black fraternity. So my take has been that all the Irish mentions have gone out of their way to establish them as an Irish family as an identity issue, but certainly not as a statement about the Irish and gangs... Yes, I agree with your take on it, zimshan. Also, by defining the Fitzpatricks as a large Irish family, well that's almost redundant, isn't it, because an Irish family is typically large almost by default. The Fitzpatricks remind me vaguely of the Kennedys, a powerful family made up of both good and bad people, brilliant and otherwise. Jack, Robert and Ted had an older sister that was kept "in the closet" because she was mentally challenged, right? And I believe the patriarch Joseph had close connections with the Mafia. I don't know where I'm going with this, other than to say that I don't see it as a p.c. cop-out. ETA: also, I recall Weevil saying something about how the only time you get the "micks and the spics" together in one place is at church, which highlights the fact that for all their differences, the two nationalities have much in common. I should point out that I'm coming at this from a weird perspective. I have never really aligned myself with any one nationality. If I could, I would check off only "Human" when a form asks for race. I was raised Catholic, but no longer practice any formal religion. I have been both part of the in crowd and I've been an outcast. I have never strongely favored a sports team, because I don't understand how one can when the team members are constantly changing. I mean, aren't you really just cheering for a uniform, then? (I fully realize this is an opinion shared by pretty much no one.) And so on. Perhaps because I lack a strong identity other than "I am me," I have found this season's exploration of identity to be very fascinating. |
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 23, 2006 13:29:52 GMT -5
Interesting comments, all.
The bad guy gang basically could have been any "identifiable group" and it could have worked with the season's events and themes. So that's why the choice of Irish screams PC to me.
I do believe that the way the "distinct nationality" is being emphasized relates to the season's themes, exactly as everyone has suggested. It is definitely being emphasized - it's not just a big family that happens to be Irish. Leprechaun logos, names like Molly, Liam, Cormick . . .
But I still think an Irish gang of any kind is a very unlikely phenonmenen in Southern California. I confess I am just guessing, as I have done zero research on this.
I am easily suspending disbelief and enjoying the show; it's no biggie. But that is the feeling I have - that I'm suspending disbelief, I mean.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 23, 2006 20:27:13 GMT -5
And they've been really hammering home the Irish references too. The sticker on the car window, Liam talking about the luck of the Irish, etc. The whole "Irish gang" thing kind of bothers me. I mean - do Irish-American criminal gangs really still exist? Weren't they mostly already out of existence by the early 20th century? And if they do still exist somewhere in the USA, would they exist in Southern California?? I confess I don't know much about this, but off the top of my head, it seems so very, very unlikely. I went to Catholic schools, which were about half Irish and half Italian, and I remember several very big Irish Catholic families, but no "gangs." The Irish are pretty well assimilated anymore. Am I the only one who thinks the Irish-gang thing seems like a bit of a Politically Correct cop-out? Not that I have any better ideas for Rob Thomas - if you give a bad-guy gang a race/nationality identity, you're going to irritate someone, I guess. I suppose they could have managed to have this sort of gang- a big family that's into crime - without all the heavy ethnic references. I don't really see this as an Irish gang - more like one family that is pretty dedicated to crime and has gathered a few additional folk around them to help (maybe, I mean, they do seem to have a lot of brothers and cousins and what not). Or something like that. |
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Post by Sue on Apr 24, 2006 21:29:01 GMT -5
Yes, folks, I did actually (finally) write a review for this ep.
Sent it to Spring about 90 minutes ago and she jumped right on ti.
Unfortunately, the website is either playing games or jerking her around but she's unable to get it up for now.
Sorry about the delay which is pretty much 99% my fault and 1% technical difficulties.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 24, 2006 21:35:43 GMT -5
Yes, folks, I did actually (finally) write a review for this ep. Sent it to Spring about 90 minutes ago and she jumped right on ti. Unfortunately, the website is either playing games or jerking her around but she's unable to get it up for now. Sorry about the delay which is pretty much 99% my fault and 1% technical difficulties. I kept trying Sue, but I can't get past the " 553 You have used all of your subscribed disk space - Error 553 You have used all of your subscribed disk space" message. EVERYONE: I have IMed Vlad and Matthew, and sent them the review. Hopefully this can be remedied! |
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Post by Jan on Apr 25, 2006 6:25:08 GMT -5
Sue, thanks for all the sorting out and summing up. Gives me a much better handle on things as we approach 2:22.
Three episodes from the end and I have no idea what's gonna happen. Now THAT'S good TV!
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 25, 2006 7:02:42 GMT -5
Matthew to the rescue!!Matthew cleared up the "disc full" problem, and Sue's VM review is up! But - don't you DARE go read it! You do NOT want to find out what would happen if you went to www.soulfulspike.com and read:
NEVER MIND THE BUTTOCKS: The Art of Misdirection by Sue
DIRECT LINK (please do NOT use it!!): www.soulfulspike.com/vmars/VMep2-19.htm
And whatever you do, NEVER MIND about providing feedback on the VM ep 2-19 thread. What's that you say? But the review is marvelous? For heaven's sake, S'cubie - can't you read? I said NEVER MIND about providing feedback! You do NOT want to find out what would happen if you did that!
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Post by raenstorm on Apr 25, 2006 8:18:06 GMT -5
Matthew to the rescue!!Matthew cleared up the "disc full" problem, and Sue's VM review is up! But - don't you DARE go read it! You do NOT want to find out what would happen if you went to www.soulfulspike.com and read:
NEVER MIND THE BUTTOCKS: The Art of Misdirection by Sue
DIRECT LINK (please do NOT use it!!): www.soulfulspike.com/vmars/VMep2-19.htm
And whatever you do, NEVER MIND about providing feedback on the VM ep 2-19 thread. What's that you say? But the review is marvelous? For heaven's sake, S'cubie - can't you read? I said NEVER MIND about providing feedback! You do NOT want to find out what would happen if you did that! Heh. ;D I'm still reading the review but I just had to say come back and laugh at Spring's announcement now that I've read the first few paragraph. |
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Post by Pixi on Apr 25, 2006 14:55:31 GMT -5
Sue - bravo! #clap# An excellent review which I enjoyed immensely.
I loved the list of animal imagery you provided and I never realized or put it together that the barracuda was indeed another animal image. Nice comparison to Kendall.
Bwah - that is an excellent line!!!!!!
Again - another excellent line and analogy and listing. There are alot of dual identities aren't there?
I could not agree more wholeheartedly with this analysis. It's why this was not quite as good as the last two eps before it. This story - the core A story was excellent but the Jackie/Wallace stuff - complete yawnsville and the Weevil stuff - okay. With Weevil - it felt like he had completed his character arc and I enjoyed the sense of closure it delivered. It really has been a great couple of episodes for Weevil. Course this means he is due to either die or have something horrible happen to him in the near future but still, I liked what they did with Weevil this year. His screentime may have been limited but they used it wisely.
(Still can't help thinking we could have done with a little less Duncan and more Weevil in the beginning of the year but that's beating a dead horse so . . . . .)
I enjoyed the overall theme of Magician's misdirection too. Nevermind the buttocks indeed.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 27, 2006 8:50:03 GMT -5
Nice nice nice job on the analysis, Sue! I always like your section headings and the way you structure and break out your thoughts, but I really loved this one in particular. The "top of the food chain" and "business model" areas were faves. Plus, the whole magic/misdirection theme is a perfect one - especially the closer we get to the end of this year's mystery(ies). Look over there! Don't look over there! Both tactics achieving the same end. Clues and red herrings are piling up and each of these most recent eps seems to be grabbing a particular handful of some and displaying them one more time for us to make our guesses. Look at this! Don't look at that! Money, revenge, "just takin' care of business" - why do I feel like the solution is some rather twisted mixture of all these? Yet perhaps with a simple genius we will all look back on and say "whoa", now I see it all!  Loved your inclusion of the barracuda in the Animal Planet hijinks! Kendall and/in the barracuda - I totally missed that particular image/metaphor! Also, very nice comparison of the Fitzpatrick's drug business and Woody's attempt at incorporation. Each serving the same customer base in their own way? Do their interests compliment or compete? The identity issues stuff was too too perfect. It brings us back to a theme we've always had in VM - and one that, as you point out, is perfect for a show about teenagers. Each of the bullet points about different characters was excellent, but I especially loved: And And This being Veronica's show, it's not surprising that she is one of the most "fleshed out" of the characters. Or that the regulars (Wallace, Keith, Logan, Weevil, Mac) are also fully fledged "people". But I really admire how much depth Rob T gives his minor characters and even one-offs. In that way, he really reminds me of Joss. You described the Veronica and Keith storyline perfectly. As their two "cases" touched and split and then circled around to meet again at the barracuda and its occupants. So nicely done! Well done, Sue, well done! Oh, and . . . **snicker** Metaphorical buttocks? **snicker, snicker**  Finally - other important reminder I was glad you gave us? "Just because Veronica thinks it doesn't make it so." |
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