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Post by Sunset on Apr 27, 2006 21:46:53 GMT -5
Since I have a lot of respect for RT I'm thinking Kendall's appearance wasn't merely to break up V and L in a scene I agree was cliche, but somehow connects to the big mystery. It's suggested her marriage to Dick Sr was a sham, and she wanted a boy toy, so she hooked up with Logan. But we've also learned she isn't really Kendall, and she went to prison to save Liam's brother Cormac from a "third strike." This doesn't sound like someone who is too dumb to make cereal and is looking for a superficial sex playmate. So I'm wondering. Is RT using Kendall's role as the relationship spoiler between V & L as a smokescreen? Is she using Logan for something other than sex, with or without his knowledge? I know someone suggested maybe she had a side con of her own going with Logan as the target...but I just get the feeling the Logan-Kendall connection has a bigger significance than *merely* as an obstacle to V & L's relationship. Hi, everyone. Delurking for a minute. Yes, I do usually lurk around the VM and Lost threads, but I don't say much because you guys (and girls) usually have it covered so much better than I could do it. Anyway, I just wanted to eeta this. It made me stop and think about what exactly the alterna-prom storyline was for. I mean what actually happened there that wouldn't have happened at a normal prom? Mac still ended up going with Butters and Wallace and Jackie's story line would have been the same either way. Also, all of the interactions between Veronica and Logan could have happened at a regular prom just as well. After all, Logan all ready has a history of showing up to partys drunk. The only difference I can think of was that if L had gotten drunk somewhere else, his buddies would have brought him home and he would have passed out locked in his suite by himself. But since the alterna-prom happened in his suite with all kinds of people coming and going, it would have been incredibly easy for just about anyone to come in and tamper with the suite or Logan himself while he was to drunk to know what was going on. oh, and editing to add, why even have the alterna-prom at L's suite? I don't care how nice it is, it can't be nearly large enough for the amount of people who would come. Why not have it somewhere bigger, say, the Casablancas house which is basicelly just as unchaperoned.
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Post by Sue on Apr 27, 2006 21:58:00 GMT -5
Since I have a lot of respect for RT I'm thinking Kendall's appearance wasn't merely to break up V and L in a scene I agree was cliche, but somehow connects to the big mystery. It's suggested her marriage to Dick Sr was a sham, and she wanted a boy toy, so she hooked up with Logan. But we've also learned she isn't really Kendall, and she went to prison to save Liam's brother Cormac from a "third strike." This doesn't sound like someone who is too dumb to make cereal and is looking for a superficial sex playmate. So I'm wondering. Is RT using Kendall's role as the relationship spoiler between V & L as a smokescreen? Is she using Logan for something other than sex, with or without his knowledge? I know someone suggested maybe she had a side con of her own going with Logan as the target...but I just get the feeling the Logan-Kendall connection has a bigger significance than *merely* as an obstacle to V & L's relationship. Hi, everyone. Delurking for a minute. Yes, I do usually lurk around the VM and Lost threads, but I don't say much because you guys (and girls) usually have it covered so much better than I could do it. Anyway, I just wanted to eeta this. It made me stop and think about what exactly the alterna-prom storyline was for. I mean what actually happened there that wouldn't have happened at a normal prom? Mac still ended up going with Butters and Wallace and Jackie's story line would have been the same either way. Also, all of the interactions between Veronica and Logan could have happened at a regular prom just as well. After all, Logan all ready has a history of showing up to partys drunk. The only difference I can think of was that if L had gotten drunk somewhere else, his buddies would have brought him home and he would have passed out locked in his suite by himself. But since the alterna-prom happened in his suite with all kinds of people coming and going, it would have been incredibly easy for just about anyone to come in and tamper with the suite or Logan himself while he was to drunk to know what was going on. MOST excellent point. And exceptional line of thinking to reach it! Thanks for posting.....I hope you delurk more often.
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Post by Sunset on Apr 27, 2006 22:02:27 GMT -5
MOST excellent point. And exceptional line of thinking to reach it! Thanks for posting.....I hope you delurk more often. Thanks! I may have to try to pop in more often. I always enjoy the episodes more by discussing them.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 28, 2006 7:21:58 GMT -5
I'm going to make enemies but whatever. Only two episodes left and such a waste of time except for the Woody/Keith/Lucky storyline and,may be,the Chlamydia one. Twenty five minutes for the big mystery of the year. And twenty minutes of useless mush and alternate prom. Most of you like the Logan/Veronica melodrama but it's too much Dawson Creek for me,sorry. That couple's sucking as much time from the show that Wallace and Jackie...that so few people love together. But make Logan and Veronica trade place with Wallace and Jackie and every Love shipper would think that the "in bed/first time " story was genius...and vice-versa.Gaaah! I actually really liked Wallace and Jackie getting together. Jackie has really grown on me and I loved seeing Wallace happy. Um. Really happy. ;D Absolutely! We are the kings and queens of "different strokes for different folks" here at S3. I guess I saw it less as heartfelt discussion and more like drunken blurted confessions and sheer panic. I remain thoroughly suspicious of Kendall and am on the fence as to whether or not she actually had sex with Logan that night or if she is just conning everyone (including Logan). Mostly because I think she has something more devious in mind than just sex and because, well, depending on how drunk he was, well . . . sometimes the sex and the really drunk thing don't . . . . um, work. Then again, he is a teenager. Hmmmmm. Maybe. But I really like the mix myself. 'Course, like I say, DSFDF! ;D I'm on pins and needles as to how the bus and the trial and all are resolved too!
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Post by Lola m on Apr 28, 2006 7:26:31 GMT -5
I'm going to make enemies but whatever. But "God! What a cliché!" would say Veronica if she was a real person. So soap-y! And that ending was so cheap! The lovebirds separated because the other woman shows up at the worst possible moment and Veronica running because she feels betrayed... Done and done again,Mr Thomas! I can write this in my sleep. I kept thinking during that scene that RT wouldn't stoop so low,he couldn't...Alas. I have to say, I do agree with you in that one respect. That last scene was very cliche, and I was quite surprised to come to this board and read again and again how "realistic" it was. I should have known that Logan and Veronica starting to make a connection again couldn't last for long and the writers would have to throw some kind of anvil at them, but I was unpleasantly surprised nonetheless. There was a similar scene in "The Wedding Singer," except it was actually more original, because in that case Drew Barrymore only thought Adam Sandler slept with another woman. (And it includes the classic line, "Please get out of my Van Halen t-shirt before you jinx the band and they break up. " ) The saving grace for that last scene was how well it was acted. Kristen Bell was just amazing. Veronica's reaction as she realized that Logan didn't remember what he said, and then again as she discovered he wasn't alone was killer. Her face crumbling in the elevator broke me a little. And Jason Dohring was impressive as well. He just stood there, so dumbstruck by her confession, clearly mirroring Veronica's dumbstruck expression when he told her how he felt about her at the Alterna-Prom. Even if you're not a fan of the LoVe relationship, you HAVE to give it up to the two actors. They work together so well, and have an undeniable chemistry. Not so unbelievable, really. That's pretty much Veronica's m.o., yes? The first time they kissed at the Camelot she was clearly freaked out, and without a word she got in her car and drove away. I'd say her reaction was very true to character. But I do have a beef with Logan for taking up with Kendall again. It's funny. Logan has done many, many wrong things for which he's been given a pass because he's so charismatic. But this time, I'm not so willing to do that. He knew that Veronica was investigating Kendall since she's the beneficiary to her stepsons' life insurance policy, and he knew that Kendall didn't have an alibi for the time of the bus crash. So Kendall has both motive and opportunity for killing his classmates, but Logan sleeps with her anyway. And yes, I know that can be excused with "He was drunk" and "He didn't believe Kendall is capable of masterminding the crash" but I'm not willing to forgive him so easily. You messed up, Logan. You messed up BIG. But aside from my disappointment in John Enbom for dusting off that tired old cliche, I found a lot to enjoy in this episode. Mac is wonderful--every line she uttered made me smile. "Prayer works!" Haa! I like Butters too, he speaks to the geek in me. (Though if I were Mac, I would have insisted he ditch the fedora.) I got a kick out of a lot of the secondary and tertiary characters. Aside from Mac and Butters, I enjoyed everything involving Dick, Madison, Corny, Leo and Mr. Wu. Gia falls into the "just OK" category for me, but I loved her comment that Leo is cute, if mumbly. So true, Gia, so true. Huh. See, that's what I LIKE about the show. It's blazing its own path by not being completely one thing or another. The best shows are difficult to categorize. It was what made Buffy both so misunderstood by the ignorant masses and so well loved by those who truly got it. I hope you give VM another chance. It's not perfect, but it's better than pretty much everything else on TV right now. Much love for Mac and Butters! And eetah on running being V's default position. In that respect, she and Logan are very much alike. When hurt, retreat!
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Post by Lola m on Apr 28, 2006 7:30:41 GMT -5
I'm going to make enemies but whatever. Only two episodes left and such a waste of time except for the Woody/Keith/Lucky storyline and,may be,the Chlamydia one. Twenty five minutes for the big mystery of the year. And twenty minutes of useless mush and alternate prom. Most of you like the Logan/Veronica melodrama but it's too much Dawson Creek for me,sorry. <snipped for space> It's Prométhée pushing its boulder up.Let's hope it won't bundle down badly... Um... Herculean 'work' would be a more appropriate metaphor.*G* I Welcome to the Soulful Spike Society! Please feel free to join us, and debate the merits of this show! I would also ask you to read our rules as well, when you do so. <also snipped for space ;D > And personally? I'm an Eli/Logan 'shipper. "Logeli"? "Elogan"? Nah, not really a 'shipper on this show: just along for the ride. Now, how could I let this pass? Longeli for evah! Wogan is my OTP!!1!!eleventyone! Leevil is da bomb! ;D Actually, not so much a shipper myself on this show - although fine with pairings as they occurs.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 28, 2006 7:33:40 GMT -5
Since I have a lot of respect for RT I'm thinking Kendall's appearance wasn't merely to break up V and L in a scene I agree was cliche, but somehow connects to the big mystery. It's suggested her marriage to Dick Sr was a sham, and she wanted a boy toy, so she hooked up with Logan. But we've also learned she isn't really Kendall, and she went to prison to save Liam's brother Cormac from a "third strike." This doesn't sound like someone who is too dumb to make cereal and is looking for a superficial sex playmate. **nods** She's got something cooking. Whether it is really part of the bus mystery or just her own side project/plan B thing is still up in the air for me. But Kendall ain't no empty-headed sex bomb - she's got a plan of some kind. I also wonder if daddy Echolls and her talked about more than just helping to throw suspicion in Duncan's direction.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 28, 2006 7:40:42 GMT -5
Chlamydia?! Does such an announcement ever really happen over the school PA? Like father, like daughter, eh? So, if the question is if Duncan slept with Kendall, then Logan and Kendall et alwould possibly have chalmydia as well. If not, then who passed it on? **nods** If it was Meg, then there's some real ugliness underneath all this. I can't decide now if the Incorporation was just something to make us keep our eyes on Woody but it won't actually be tied to the crash or not. I mean, voted down now - yes. But that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't a motive back at the time of the bombing. That was very disturbing/thought-provoking, wasn't it? So funny! So much love for Veronica in those moments! Such fab lines!! Oh, Madison, you are just so easy! Easy to tease. ;D Yeah. Things are just as creepy as Meg said. Ewwwww! I have very not-good feelings about all this stuff with the Mannings and Lucky and Woody and . . . . bleargh! Kendall's slipperier than a greased weasel! Um. That didn't sound quite . . .
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Post by Lola m on Apr 28, 2006 7:44:11 GMT -5
Since I have a lot of respect for RT I'm thinking Kendall's appearance wasn't merely to break up V and L in a scene I agree was cliche, but somehow connects to the big mystery. It's suggested her marriage to Dick Sr was a sham, and she wanted a boy toy, so she hooked up with Logan. But we've also learned she isn't really Kendall, and she went to prison to save Liam's brother Cormac from a "third strike." This doesn't sound like someone who is too dumb to make cereal and is looking for a superficial sex playmate. So I'm wondering. Is RT using Kendall's role as the relationship spoiler between V & L as a smokescreen? Is she using Logan for something other than sex, with or without his knowledge? I know someone suggested maybe she had a side con of her own going with Logan as the target...but I just get the feeling the Logan-Kendall connection has a bigger significance than *merely* as an obstacle to V & L's relationship. Hi, everyone. Delurking for a minute. Yes, I do usually lurk around the VM and Lost threads, but I don't say much because you guys (and girls) usually have it covered so much better than I could do it. Anyway, I just wanted to eeta this. It made me stop and think about what exactly the alterna-prom storyline was for. I mean what actually happened there that wouldn't have happened at a normal prom? Mac still ended up going with Butters and Wallace and Jackie's story line would have been the same either way. Also, all of the interactions between Veronica and Logan could have happened at a regular prom just as well. After all, Logan all ready has a history of showing up to partys drunk. The only difference I can think of was that if L had gotten drunk somewhere else, his buddies would have brought him home and he would have passed out locked in his suite by himself. But since the alterna-prom happened in his suite with all kinds of people coming and going, it would have been incredibly easy for just about anyone to come in and tamper with the suite or Logan himself while he was to drunk to know what was going on. oh, and editing to add, why even have the alterna-prom at L's suite? I don't care how nice it is, it can't be nearly large enough for the amount of people who would come. Why not have it somewhere bigger, say, the Casablancas house which is basicelly just as unchaperoned. Good question about why at the hotel? I mean, surely someone's house - like the Casablancas' - would be more private, not likely to have someone else complain about noise, etc. I mean, they intended it to be smaller than the real prom - just for the rich kids - but you'd think they'd still want the even more complete freedom/privacy of a house.
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Post by Michelle on Apr 28, 2006 10:04:44 GMT -5
Musing about Veronica's VD:
Kendall's job was to pass the bag in the real estate scam, and I think that reflects her role as a middle man. Dick expressed his desire for riding bareback in IAG, and in this episode he clearly showed that his main goal was to get lucky (not Lucky, heh) at the Alterna-Prom. He even propositioned Veronica, who is supposedly rich dude Kryptonite. And way, way back in I-don't-remember-what episode, Dick gave Kendall a maid's outfit and clearly implied that he expected certain services from her.
Having sex with one person is like having sex with all your partner's past partners, and I'm thinking somehow it will come out that Veronica's venereal disease has passed through both Dick and Kendall. From there, I don't know. Assuming Veronica only has slept with Duncan, there must be some connection between Dick, Kendall and Duncan, either directly or indirectly.
It seems to be a running theme this season that everything is related like a queue of dominoes; one falls and the rest topple, one after another.
And running with that domino theory, musing #2:
In IAG, Cervando "told" Veronica that whoever was responsible for the bus crash had to be in just the right place to ensure the bus went over the cliff when the bomb went off. But maybe that wasn't the intention at all. Perhaps the bomb on the bus was only meant to kill one specific victim, but other events intervened to change that. Gia reported that she saw a green Barracuda and pressed ham right before the crash. So the bomb goes off on the bus, which would be enough of a jolt. But then the bus driver may have also gotten distracted by the car speeding by and the bum flash, and and he lost control of the bus at the exact wrong time.
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Post by raenstorm on Apr 28, 2006 10:31:02 GMT -5
I'm going to make enemies but whatever. Only two episodes left and such a waste of time except for the Woody/Keith/Lucky storyline and,may be,the Chlamydia one. Twenty five minutes for the big mystery of the year. And twenty minutes of useless mush and alternate prom. Most of you like the Logan/Veronica melodrama but it's too much Dawson Creek for me,sorry. That couple's sucking as much time from the show that Wallace and Jackie...that so few people love together. But make Logan and Veronica trade place with Wallace and Jackie and every Love shipper would think that the "in bed/first time " story was genius...and vice-versa.Gaaah! Pink L/V glasses are the trend these days.No matter what's on screen if they're together on it,right? Then,of course, when they have heartfelt/pouring their feelings out / discussions...So great! I don't share the enthusiasm,sure, but everybody is entitled to its opinion.The eyes of the beholder... But "God! What a cliché!" would say Veronica if she was a real person. So soap-y! And that ending was so cheap! The lovebirds separated because the other woman shows up at the worst possible moment and Veronica running because she feels betrayed... Done and done again,Mr Thomas! I can write this in my sleep. I kept thinking during that scene that RT wouldn't stoop so low,he couldn't...Alas. I keep wondering why Veronica didn't tell Logan,at a moment or another, all she knew about Kendall/Priscilla .She's potentially dangerous for our Dear Boy. But,nope...Veronica runs away and cries because her heart's breaking. Unbelievable. OT. I wonder if VM's difficulties in the ratings don't come partly from the dichotomy of its viewers. Shippers that mostly watch for V/L and the HS stuff and the other part not very interested in the "ships" (Well,bored most likely...) and liking mostly the Noir aspect of the show. That show's confusing in what it stands for. Not completly teen,not completly Noir...and it must rebuke a good part of potential viewers. RT's walking a fine line,trying to throw bones to everyone and,unfortunately,it's not always working. At least for me. Sometimes,I feel completly disconnected,bored,wondering why I'm still watching...Then the story changes gears and I'm interested again.Needs devotion.Is everybody up for it? Not sure. Let's hope the last two episodes won't be too overcrowded... because I wonder how they're going to tie all the loose ends with so few time left. Aaron's trial.Bus crash...And all the sub-plots.Ouch! It's Prométhée pushing its boulder up.Let's hope it won't bundle down badly... Um... Herculean 'work' would be a more appropriate metaphor.*G* I Hi Anne, Several of us disagree with each other all the time and I don't think of anyone here as an enemy, so you're good. ;D HOWEVER, I gotta say I don't see how the Logan and Veronica as a couple have been sucking life out of the show this season. You compare them to Jackie and Wallace but we've certainly had a lot more of Jackie and Wallace as a couple this season than we've had of Veronica and Logan as a couple. We have had interaction between them but it'd hardly be anything that could be construed as couple-ish. But, maybe that's just because I would eventually like to see them together and see a chemistry there that I enjoy. Note: I may be a shipper but I was over the idea of V/L until episode 13 back in February renewed my interest. This is partly why I don't see how the show has devoted as much time to them... if they had I would have wanted them together the enitre season. Still I can understand how someone who is not interested in those two getting together would not enjoy their scenes and would find that a waste of time on the show. I'm just sorry that it brings the show down for you. Oh, I was going to talk about the cliche aspect. I've seen that said a few times and I have to disagree and it's not just because it's a V/L scene. I think it's actually refreshing that we didn't get the reconciliation scene here... that there was something that stopped it. Because, as the signs on the walls surrounding them say, this was the Anti-Prom episode. Which is very appropo for a teen NOIR show. The more cliche thing or teen show thing to do would have been to make the prom a happy thing. Hell, even BtVS gave into this... in the end, Buffy got that one night to be happy and dance with Angel. Veronica doesn't get that. That's not what happens in Neptune. Instead she opens her heart and, from her perspective, gets it stomped on again. If Veronica had burst into loud sobs or thrown things or screamed at Logan, I'd be ok with labeling that as more melodramatic. Instead, it's a quiet devestation and that's what makes it not the cliche moment for me. That's what keeps it closer to the label of NOIR as opposed to teen drama. I second your hope that the last two episodes won't be too overcrowded but I'm betting all of the dangling ends we have left are all mixed up together somehow so I have high hopes for what's coming.
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teacherdarling1
S'cubie
"If cuddlings the best part, he's not doing it right"
Posts: 25
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Post by teacherdarling1 on Apr 28, 2006 13:17:04 GMT -5
Cannot wait til Tues! and the Tues after that. Pins and Needles folks, Pins and Needles
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Post by Michelle on Apr 28, 2006 13:30:59 GMT -5
Oh, I was going to talk about the cliche aspect. I've seen that said a few times and I have to disagree and it's not just because it's a V/L scene. Having Veronica come to Logan's door and catch him with another woman is a cliche for me because it is a device that has been used ad nauseum in television and film as an obstacle for the two love interests. As I mentioned, it was used in The Wedding Singer and I'm sure if I really thought about it, I could come up with several other shows that used that device. But I agree, it wasn't cliche in that they didn't have their happy makeup scene at the prom.
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Post by Sue on Apr 28, 2006 14:09:06 GMT -5
Oh, I was going to talk about the cliche aspect. I've seen that said a few times and I have to disagree and it's not just because it's a V/L scene. Having Veronica come to Logan's door and catch him with another woman is a cliche for me because it is a device that has been used ad nauseum in television and film as an obstacle for the two love interests. As I mentioned, it was used in The Wedding Singer and I'm sure if I really thought about it, I could come up with several other shows that used that device. But I agree, it wasn't cliche in that they didn't have their happy makeup scene at the prom. I also thought it was a bit different that Logan clearly didn't even recall what he had said to Veronica the previous night. So, it's not like he had declared this love and then was caught out by her. He seemed to think he was doing nothing more (or less) than he had been all along since they had broken up the summer before----pining for her but outwardly "moving on." He'd already slept with Kendall and Veronica knew about it and he knew Veronica knew. So, in his mind (at least for a split second when he first opened the door) it was no big deal, same old, same old---embarassing that Veronica had caught him with K (again) but not devestating. Until he realized what she was saying, and what she was implying that he had said. And he knew Kendall was in there. In so many of these scenes the girl sees the boy with other woman and assumes the worst and runs off. Boy doesn't even necessarily know that he's been seen. Yes, this type of scenario has been done before. (I mean, really how many even remotely realistic possibilities are there for keeping two people apart. Can't say I like sudden amnesia, develpment of split personality, plane crashes on desserted islands or the appearance of heretofore unknown 12 year olds as any preferable reasons). So the "he slept with another woman" idea may be a cliche---but everything surrounding the set-up: why is Kendall sleeping with him; he didn't recall declaring himself to Veronica so he didn't know there was even a remote possibility of anything there left to wreck; the level of acting which infused what might have been a cliche with a depth of emotion; Well, still going with I liked it. Also going with the concept that no matter what "feelings" are involved for the time being Veronica is better off not being with a boy who is a messed up, confused and immature as Logan is. They need to meet up at their 10 year high school reunion and then see what's what.
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Post by Michelle on Apr 28, 2006 14:37:10 GMT -5
Having Veronica come to Logan's door and catch him with another woman is a cliche for me because it is a device that has been used ad nauseum in television and film as an obstacle for the two love interests. As I mentioned, it was used in The Wedding Singer and I'm sure if I really thought about it, I could come up with several other shows that used that device. But I agree, it wasn't cliche in that they didn't have their happy makeup scene at the prom. Yes, this type of scenario has been done before. (I mean, really how many even remotely realistic possibilities are there for keeping two people apart. Can't say I like sudden amnesia, develpment of split personality, plane crashes on desserted islands or the appearance of heretofore unknown 12 year olds as any preferable reasons). Hee! OK, true enough. Ack! Bite your tongue, woman!
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