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Post by Lola m on Mar 1, 2007 13:40:46 GMT -5
I'll sit in the corner with you, in a non-threatening way. Overall, this arc needed more passion. First, I didn't really care about Dean O'dell. They tried to give the character a few quirks, and having him write the recommendation letter for Veronica made me care a little more, but not enough to get invested in the search for his killer. It's a difficult balance for the show-runners, I understand. VM sits upon a tripod of MotW's, relationships, and the BMA (Bigger Mystery Arc). I feel like over the O'dell BMA, it was the BMA itself that was short-changed. I didn't buy Landry as the killer strictly because of the timing of the final episode. As soon as they switched to Tim asking Veronica to become his TA, I knew he was going to prove to be the killer. And, I hadn't seen enough of the character to care. The last couple of episodes seemed to me like the cast knows it's going to end, and they're wrapping it up. Keith gets his sheriff job back. Veronica and Logan find some peace, albeit apart. I hate to say this, but if VM goes on for another season, they're going to have to ratchet it up a notch. Take a page from Joss, and kill someone Veronica cares about. Then give Veronica an adversary who's frightening (ala Aaron) or a surprising twist (ala Beaver).Don't get me wrong - it's still one of the best things on television. I'll watch the show for the characters and dialogue, but I miss the more effective BMA's of the first two seasons. I have to agree with you on this one, Sharky. Really. These people could stand to take a page out of Joss' book. Much eetahing. Joss just knew how to handle the full range of characters in each ep as well as balancing stand alone stuff, small arcs, season-long arcs and series-long arc and continuity. All while being emotional, funny and sad and scary and exciting.
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Post by Lola m on Mar 1, 2007 13:44:35 GMT -5
It's okay Lola. The Scubie board and I have pretty much disagreed all season in reactions, so I was fairly sure my viewpoint would be unpopular. I don't disagree with your analysis of noir. I just want my show to be enjoyable. And having read numerous reactions on LJ, I'm not the only one who feels this was a flat episode, without heart and emotion. It needed more. It could have been fixed by introducing Tim as a sleuthing companion to Veronica earlier in the arc. Then the impact at the end might have had more resonance. Then we could feel V's pain at realizing her friend/co-sleuther was the murderer. The pain of betrayal. And Tim's pain could have been stronger. In fact the whole lame Morning after show would have had far more impact if Tim had been playing a bigger role in Veronica's life at this point.And Landry's acting was so bad in the boat scene, that it completely destroyed the fourth wall. I wonder if the actor has ever had to cry before, he did it so badly. I still like my show. I have no problems with this being more analytical as opposed to action packed. They just didn't bring any emotional feel to this climax. Anyway, that's my opinion. And I'm fine over here in the less populated corner. Actually, I agree that would have been a very good idea and V's hurt would have resonated more had that been done. So, your corner is a bit more populated, though I still liked the episode overall. So, see? It's not so much a corner of folks as a whole room with people ranged all around it, with varying degrees of liking and not liking and enjoying or hating different bits.
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Post by leftylady on Mar 1, 2007 20:00:34 GMT -5
I’ll make it a threesome in the corner with Pixi and Sharky (with Onjel with one foot in our corner).
**I really, really enjoyed the previous 3 episodes. They felt like vintage VM. This did not. There was a lot going on, but I was very under-whelmed / not engaged. There were some of the elements Lola mentions in typical “noir”, but they are supposed to create some modicum of angst - part of the “noir” tone. The story didn’t touch me like I wanted it to. Very disappointing. It just felt flat.
**A lot of the plot was very telegraphed - and by the numbers. I felt like the script was using a checklist. Is this preparing the audience for the “stand alone” case of the week? - I particularly felt the transparency in the “get rid of Veronica / Logan” part. “One, two, three, Ok, now they’re just ‘friends’. Nothing to see here. Just move on.”
**I also guessed the Tim angle. He was already at the top of the suspect list for me a couple of episodes ago. He was too close to the “perfect murder” paper, and his “helpfulness” was somehow “out of character”.
I really loved VM, but the compromises they have had to make this year I find very frustrating. It ends up not the show I loved and obsessed about. - I don’t want just another Nancy Drew/Murder She Wrote. Those are all fine ways to pass an hour of tv, but not to ponder over or wait impatiently for the next episode.
leftylady, who is feeling almost too bummed out to post this
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Post by Vlad on Mar 2, 2007 23:00:37 GMT -5
Well, I don't like corners... I prefer to sit in the middle of the room and talk. So, what will we talk about? Oh I know... me! My feelings. Hey, I'm good at it and they say "go with what you know." Here's my list: - I liked this episode. I did not know who killed the dean till very near the end. I had quite a list of plausible suspects. And I much preferred this mystery arc to the rapist arc of the first half of the season.
- I am also glad to see Logan and Veronica apart. It's time to separate them and I would be willing to say as much as letting Logan go from the show... maybe have him come back as a guest star here and there. Shame that Aly Hannigan has her successful show, because I could have stood a mystery arc with her front and center. The Eckles have such good family drama.
- I didn't feel the performances were phoned-in in the least. For this mystery arc I actually enjoyed all the actors.
- I enjoyed watching Tim and Veronica work together. In fact, I always enjoy it when Veronica is sorta showing off. Reminds me of the early days with Wallace. Or when she has her "client" along for the ride. She can't resist doing that subtle bragging. The neat thing is , she isn't always right, and that smugness is what makes it so much more fun on the occasions when she is wrong. And that can't be shown nearly as well with a voice over. It takes that secondary character to be there to see it.
- I enjoyed watching Veronica sleaze around in the Sheriff's dept. and see the potential problems that are going to arise as she butts head with her dad in his new capacity as "law-abiding man" vs. "bend the rules to get justice" man. I want to hear that argument, because she is truly not going to be doing anything he hasn't done and showed her how to do. I think that last line of his about the "crime and sleeze rotting her brain" was supposed to be a foreshadowing of that.
So, yeah, I liked this episode and I really enjoyed this arc. VM, to me, has refound itself. Is it completely fresh and new? Of course not! This show is in it's 3rd season. But, for all you folks remembering the golden days of Buffy, I'd like to remind you that those days weren;t so golden as you remember. There were plenty of ho-hum episodes... there were plenty of smaller arcs that weren't what the "audience" particularly wanted. In the end, that show stands up well in "memory" because it truly was a great show. But it was hardly perfection. Veronica Mars is another great show. Not perfect, but so far from being a waste of time that it sorta hurts to hear it down-mouthed because it's not exactly what the fans "precisely" want. I have never seen any show give anyone precisely what they want. Not even the Whedon shows. In fact.. especially the Whedon shows. How many characters died? Who wanted that? The point being, you were given what you needed to have a good story... not the "perfect" story. I too am saddened that Sheriff Lamb is gone... I think there was plenty more story left in them there hills. But on the other hand, if the creators have something in mind for Keith as sheriff, then go for it! For over 50+ episodes you guys have not let me down for long. Entertain me! You are still one of the best shows on television, and being as you are now in your Junior year, that makes you no flash in the pan. Let's see how well HEROES is doing at 3. (Well, I hope! I love that show too) Vlad
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Post by Michelle on Mar 3, 2007 15:34:14 GMT -5
So, I finally watched this show, after putting it off for several days. I had heard that this had some of the lowest ratings ever of the series and general remarks that it wasn't a very strong ep, so I was putting off what I thought would be some painful viewing. But perhaps because I didn't have very high expectations, I was pleasantly surprised by how much I enjoyed 'Papa's Cabin.' Immediately after watching it, I came to this thread to read everyone's remarks--which, wow!! You all really made some intelligent, thoughtful comments, and each one really made me think. And extra kudos to Matthew for guessing Tim as the killer!! I was surprised by the outcome because I thought the arc had sort of a Body Heat feel to it, and expected Mindy to be the mastermind, if not the killer. And who knows? Maybe Mindy was diddling Tim Foyle too and smooth-talked him into offing the dean. Hey, it's a thought. I think the show did an excellent job casting the actress who played Mindy O'Dell. She was the perfect femme fatale--far better than Kendall Casablancas, imo. I have quibble with the way Keith let Landry wander all over the boat as he expositioned. I was expecting Hank to pull a gun from under a seat cushion at any moment. Cuff the perp, THEN let them exposition, Keith! I did not like Tim Foyle, so I'm not sorry to see him go, but I agree with Sue that he should have been brought in earlier to work alongside Veronica. I think that would have helped the arc resolution tremendously. I really enjoyed Tim & Veronica's back-and-forth over the cabin photos. And was the Hemmingway reference a call back to Season 1? I also enjoyed the way the colored lighting played on Foyle's face as he walked up and down the aisle of the lecture hall. A perfect noir moment. But I do wonder why Veronica didn't think to check her phone for a bug until that moment. As soon as she found out Landry's phone was bugged, it seems like she should have checked her own. I want to see a little more chink in Veronica's armor. I was put off by the wildly defensive jokey manner she took with both Wallace and Logan. Wallace looked so annoyed with Veronica, and frankly I don't blame him. There was a small moment with Logan, when she said "Good luck" that I felt for her, but as I said, that moment was small. It seems like Mac is the only one who can handle (or really understand) Veronica's cool demeanor. I missed Mac--I hope she is in all of the last five remaining episodes.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Mar 4, 2007 13:22:29 GMT -5
Teaser
The where to sit in class question. Hee.
Lots of angled close ups again.
There's a whiteboard in the interrogation room?
So it's Steve's keyboard.
Keith reviews the facts of the case.
Flashback to the confrontation.
So the mysterious visitor was Mindy.
Cyrus had plenty of enemies. Back to this again.
On profiling.
Arrested in the middle of lecture? That's embarrassing.
Tim looks concerned.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Mar 4, 2007 13:28:35 GMT -5
Part I
The rest of the confrontation.
Prenups.
Of course, it's always Tim.
Formulating a lie, realizing it's futile, finally telling the truth? Hee.
Tim's pretty rotten at subterfuge considering his interest.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Mar 4, 2007 13:36:55 GMT -5
Part II
The surveillance tapes are just for show. Great.
Strip City,
Seniority. Hee!
Wallace notices.
I'm just trying to find out which Gilmore Girl you are. BWAH!!!
And so it begins. Veronica and Keith on opposite sides of the law.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Mar 4, 2007 13:42:01 GMT -5
Part III
Does he have A Bug's Life? Hee!
What Landry really thinks of Tim. Ouch!
Everybody's disappearing! Maybe there's a black hole somewhere in Neptune.
Oh, no, they're just taking off in a boat together.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Mar 4, 2007 13:46:37 GMT -5
Part IV
Papa's Cabin.
JD Sansone.
He's one of the juvies.
It's the stripper chick!
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Mar 4, 2007 14:00:38 GMT -5
Coda
OMG, She's dead!
You know, some people are afraid of you. You think?
Um, yeah. Don't discuss the case until it's prosecuted. Jeez.
"our" perfect murder papers? Wasn't that a different class?
Once a perpetrator starts improvising, the sloppier he becomes.
Tim gives himself away.
This classroom has the same stained glass as Mars Investigations?
Downside of justice. Feels good but doesn't change anything? Isn't that about revenge?
I don't like you exposed to all this crime and violence; it's going to warp your mind. Yeah, I think it's already too late for that.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Mar 4, 2007 14:15:18 GMT -5
I liked this episode and the mystery arc. I'm of the opinion that the show has been of consistent quality all the way along. And it's not the best show ever, but it's really good.
I enjoyed that the players involved this time knew something about crime and yet were so bad at it. I particularly enjoyed after knowing that Tim's a TA for Landry, and all the sleuthing he did this mystery arc and the last one, and all his interactions with Veronica that it turned out that Tim was so bad at it, both investigating and at getting away with murder. That's a reveal that could not have happened if he and Veronica had been sleuthing together earlier in the season.
Veronica is very much one-minded when she's on a case; both in this episode and the last one, she's barely noticed the relationships going on around her, particularly Logan. I wonder if Veronica is going to feel that way, or if, during downtime between her cases, she's going to have regrets. I find that very true to life.
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Post by artemis on Mar 8, 2007 11:27:35 GMT -5
i think at least part of the split in VM fandom has been because of two different uses of the term "standalone episodes". in a previous thread, sue used the example of magnum, p.i. those episodes are standalone in that they aren't (usually) connected up to a larger mystery; the mystery is self-contained. but if you tuned in just once or twice, you would probably be confused about the characters and their relationships, and might need someone there to help explain things to you.
today, network execs usually use "standalones" to mean a show that you can flip to without needing background information. there is typically little character development because, in the framework they are using, character development actually impedes their goal of people being able to occassionally watch the show. these are the kinds of shows that almost never have a "previouslies".
i suspect that at least part of the division over the change in fandom is because we don't know, yet, which kind of standalone the network and RT mean, and so each of us are assuming one or the other kind.
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Post by Lola m on Mar 9, 2007 13:25:42 GMT -5
Well, I don't like corners... I prefer to sit in the middle of the room and talk. So, what will we talk about? Oh I know... me! My feelings. Hey, I'm good at it and they say "go with what you know." Here's my list: - I liked this episode. I did not know who killed the dean till very near the end. I had quite a list of plausible suspects. And I much preferred this mystery arc to the rapist arc of the first half of the season.
Definitely a mysterious enough mystery for me as well. [/li][/ul] - I am also glad to see Logan and Veronica apart. It's time to separate them and I would be willing to say as much as letting Logan go from the show... maybe have him come back as a guest star here and there. Shame that Aly Hannigan has her successful show, because I could have stood a mystery arc with her front and center. The Eckles have such good family drama.
- I didn't feel the performances were phoned-in in the least. For this mystery arc I actually enjoyed all the actors.
- I enjoyed watching Tim and Veronica work together. In fact, I always enjoy it when Veronica is sorta showing off. Reminds me of the early days with Wallace. Or when she has her "client" along for the ride. She can't resist doing that subtle bragging. The neat thing is , she isn't always right, and that smugness is what makes it so much more fun on the occasions when she is wrong. And that can't be shown nearly as well with a voice over. It takes that secondary character to be there to see it.
[/quote] **nods** You can just see when the pleasure of impressing someone starts to take over. A little extra bounce in her smirk, so to speak. [/li][/ul] - I enjoyed watching Veronica sleaze around in the Sheriff's dept. and see the potential problems that are going to arise as she butts head with her dad in his new capacity as "law-abiding man" vs. "bend the rules to get justice" man. I want to hear that argument, because she is truly not going to be doing anything he hasn't done and showed her how to do. I think that last line of his about the "crime and sleeze rotting her brain" was supposed to be a foreshadowing of that.
[/quote] **nods again** I'm thinking we may see her butting heads in a different way with dad back in his old job. They may each be thinking they're just gonna slide back into acting the way they always have, and yet their each thinking of a different "way they always have". Um. Which is not real clear, I guess. Anyone else get what I'm saying but can say it better? ;D Witness all the "the first 3 years of Buffy were great, the later ones sucked" and "I hated the high school years and it only got interesting in later seasons" camps. Whereas I tend to like the whole ongoing arc and changes and so on.
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Post by Lola m on Mar 9, 2007 13:31:41 GMT -5
So, I finally watched this show, after putting it off for several days. I had heard that this had some of the lowest ratings ever of the series and general remarks that it wasn't a very strong ep, so I was putting off what I thought would be some painful viewing. But perhaps because I didn't have very high expectations, I was pleasantly surprised by how much I enjoyed 'Papa's Cabin.' Immediately after watching it, I came to this thread to read everyone's remarks--which, wow!! You all really made some intelligent, thoughtful comments, and each one really made me think. And extra kudos to Matthew for guessing Tim as the killer!! I was surprised by the outcome because I thought the arc had sort of a Body Heat feel to it, and expected Mindy to be the mastermind, if not the killer. And who knows? Maybe Mindy was diddling Tim Foyle too and smooth-talked him into offing the dean. Hey, it's a thought. I think the show did an excellent job casting the actress who played Mindy O'Dell. She was the perfect femme fatale--far better than Kendall Casablancas, imo. Heeee! I too like Mindy as a femme fatale. A tragicly fatale for herself one, at that. Although I always like Kendall too. I don't think she was supposed to be a FF in the same way, but her was was equally intriging to me. It would have been intriguing to see them work together for a longer time period, although I don't think that was necessarily needed. For example, I don't think we needed to see a stronger relationship between them in order to have more emotional impact. Veronica (and we the audience) didn't need to like Tim or to have built that kind of relationship feeling for the tragedy to work, IMHO. Something is going to have to happen between Veronica and Wallace. The look on his face when she blew him off wasn't just ordinary snarking between them. I think we may be seeing some kind of confrontation about stuff. Or at least, I hope so.
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