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Post by Shan on Mar 16, 2005 19:35:01 GMT -5
I tend to find discussion of different religious thoughts interesting, (provided no one is trying to make me think one way or another and that they don't get mean about it). So I'm finding the stuff BSG doing intriguing (at least so far). It's a neat twist to have the "good guys" be the ones believing in many gods and the "bad guys" be the one god folks. ('Course, I'm not a "one god" gal myself, so naturallly I find that fascinating. ;D ) I know that there was an element of this in the old series, but not as such a prominent theme. But I do remember a Cylon religious head guy, had a cool hat and stuff. I'll have to see how far they take their analogies and how much they push stuff. So far, I'm still finding the show amazingly cool - and such great acting! Lola I also find such discussions interesting, and under the same conditions. I also do find BSG's take on it interesting as well. I just personally think they're basing too much plotline/story on assumptions of common cultural reference points. Hence, my personal feeling of losing interest in that aspect of it. It's still brilliantly done (scripted, filmed, acted, everything) but I find it much too heavy in the religious department for my tastes. And also....unnecessary for lack of a better word.
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Post by Shan on Mar 16, 2005 19:48:14 GMT -5
I'm not all that bothered with it to the extent that it fits in as standard cultural fodder for the story. Some of it gives clues as to what one can expect to happen if the allusions hold true. In absence of those things, I think it would take them much longer to establish some of their clues. Allusion allows one to write a book in a sentence. So, to that extent it's quite useful to the story. I think Locke or Book would say that if you're catechised, it just gives you a further insight that others might lack. It would be lost on people who don't know something about it. It makes you relevant to the discussion as much as anyone else. And I don't mind inclusion I guess I would have preferred them to tell a story wholly of their own making, rather than just re-tell one they suppose everyong already knows. It's not that hard to find enough commonality in the human condition to make everyone feel included. And not everybody wants clues as to what's going to happen, with their characters all overlaid with a previously-established template. Some like to watch a tale unfold naturally, and find their own relevancies. But that's just me.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Mar 17, 2005 4:06:08 GMT -5
Havoc, your review is just excellent! So clear and well thought out - I truly enjoyed it. I am loving this show - it's great science fiction in the best sense to me - it explores universal questions, as Asimov, Heinlein, Clark did - and it's such an intricately woven puzzle - it has me well caught!
It's hard when the bad guys don't know they are...and if Boomer #2 is pregnant, and yes, that was my immediate thought as well, where does a half cylon half human fit in the mix? Another one of those universal questions...
Again, great job, and thanks for doing it!
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noor
Junior S'cubie
Posts: 19
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Post by noor on Mar 17, 2005 4:06:33 GMT -5
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noor
Junior S'cubie
Posts: 19
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Post by noor on Mar 17, 2005 4:07:59 GMT -5
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Post by havoc on Mar 17, 2005 6:43:25 GMT -5
Havoc, your review is just excellent! So clear and well thought out - I truly enjoyed it. I am loving this show - it's great science fiction in the best sense to me - it explores universal questions, as Asimov, Heinlein, Clark did - and it's such an intricately woven puzzle - it has me well caught! It's hard when the bad guys don't know they are...and if Boomer #2 is pregnant, and yes, that was my immediate thought as well, where does a half cylon half human fit in the mix? Another one of those universal questions... Again, great job, and thanks for doing it! Thank you ma'am I watched this episode after catching up on three missed weeks worth of Lost and two missed weeks of Enterprise. My inspiration level was boosted to say the least. I didn't wish to prognosticate too much; but, when putting things in place, much of what I said writes itself. The real fun will be seeing if and how the writers deal with it. Watching Baltar's progression is kindof like watching Darth Vader be born. But as with Vader, the real fun isn't in knowing it happens; but, how it does.
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Post by havoc on Mar 17, 2005 6:52:06 GMT -5
Thanks for the heads up and welcome to S3 and the BSG discussions.
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Post by William the Bloody on Mar 17, 2005 7:41:28 GMT -5
Havoc, your review is just excellent! So clear and well thought out - I truly enjoyed it. I am loving this show - it's great science fiction in the best sense to me - it explores universal questions, as Asimov, Heinlein, Clark did - and it's such an intricately woven puzzle - it has me well caught! It's hard when the bad guys don't know they are...and if Boomer #2 is pregnant, and yes, that was my immediate thought as well, where does a half cylon half human fit in the mix? Another one of those universal questions... Again, great job, and thanks for doing it! As I commented to my brother as I shared a tape with the last three episodes on it (for him to catch up): "BSG is sorta like waht Tom Clancy might write if he did a sci-fi tale.. There's a certain amount of right-wingness, without clobbering you over the head and a certain feel of patriotism and jingoism" (not in the negative connotation.) Theres no doubt about it, it's a military show, one that I imagine most military personel would enjoy watching. It's truly a different view of sci-fi, much as Star Trek covers the more or less left wing aspect of the future and Firefly covers the a sort of bleak apocolyptic type of future. Each one interestingly enough covers the same territory: how the human race survives and how it takes a group to so. Vlad
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Post by William the Bloody on Mar 17, 2005 7:55:35 GMT -5
I would like to mention something that is really beginning to strike me. I have a theory that Adama is actually training/testing Starbuck to take over for him (or perhaps Col. Tigh.) If one pays attention to all the tales that circulate about the "old man" during his younger years, you will geta definite feel that he was a "Starbuck" himself. Cocky, skilled, adept at pulling off the imposssible and thinking way outside the box. I feel that Adama has looked at his son and at Lt. Thrace and decided she's his worthy successor. Not that there is anything wrong with Apollo, but he seems much more hte politico type than Adama or Thrace is. His working with the president jsut sorta makes it clearer. While he could command and may be even readier for the job currently, Starbuck has the most potential if trained.
In defense of htis idea I offer the following:
-It is Starbuck that he sends to interrogate the Cylon. She is not the first person I would have picked, but I think it was supposed to be a growth situatiion and perhaps a test of sorts. Plus, she got to know her enemy.
-Her working closely with the flight crew and other branchs aboard the ship are giving her a better feel for the Galactica as a whole world rather than her little fighter pilot part of it..
-His bringing her in to help mastermind the attack on the Cylon fuel depot demonstrates his understanding of her talents. It also provided her a hands on demonstration for the others, namely the president and her detractor, Tigh.
-And finally, while it was her injury that truly sidelined her from flying the mission herself, her standing aboard the command deck and issuing commands, watching men necessarily die due to her orders while not engaged in combat herself was yet antoher step for her to learn dispassionate command skills.
Yes, Starbuck is being groomed. Which only makes sense. If Adama or Tigh or both should ever buy the farm, it's not like they can ring up the Caprican version of hte Pentagon and get a new Commander. Someone will have to lead and, really, who has more potential than Lt. Thrace?
Vlad
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Post by havoc on Mar 17, 2005 8:31:43 GMT -5
I would like to mention something that is really beginning to strike me. I have a theory that Adama is actually training/testing Starbuck to take over for him (or perhaps Col. Tigh.) If one pays attention to all the tales that circulate about the "old man" during his younger years, you will geta definite feel that he was a "Starbuck" himself. Cocky, skilled, adept at pulling off the imposssible and thinking way outside the box. I feel that Adama has looked at his son and at Lt. Thrace and decided she's his worthy successor. Not that there is anything wrong with Apollo, but he seems much more hte politico type than Adama or Thrace is. His working with the president jsut sorta makes it clearer. While he could command and may be even readier for the job currently, Starbuck has the most potential if trained. In defense of htis idea I offer the following: -It is Starbuck that he sends to interrogate the Cylon. She is not the first person I would have picked, but I think it was supposed to be a growth situatiion and perhaps a test of sorts. Plus, she got to know her enemy. -Her working closely with the flight crew and other branchs aboard the ship are giving her a better feel for the Galactica as a whole world rather than her little fighter pilot part of it.. -His bringing her in to help mastermind the attack on the Cylon fuel depot demonstrates his understanding of her talents. It also provided her a hands on demonstration for the others, namely the president and her detractor, Tigh. -And finally, while it was her injury that truly sidelined her from flying the mission herself, her standing aboard the command deck and issuing commands, watching men necessarily die due to her orders while not engaged in combat herself was yet antoher step for her to learn dispassionate command skills. Yes, Starbuck is being groomed. Which only makes sense. If Adama or Tigh or both should ever buy the farm, it's not like they can ring up the Caprican version of hte Pentagon and get a new Commander. Someone will have to lead and, really, who has more potential than Lt. Thrace? Vlad Extremely good critique. My gut instinct is that the old man doesn't trust Tigh fully. He respects Tigh and his ability to function given his known weaknesses; but, his wife makes him an unquantifiable sum. Nobody else really has the grasp that Starbuck has on things. And to underscore your point on Apollo, remember what Dad told him about making a choice. In Adama's mind, Apollo chose not to pursue the command level military path. He Chose to become a politico. And the two are incompatible. Apollo would be compromised in serving either as commander or XO because of his relationship with the President. The interesting projection beyond that is the counterbalance Starbuck would represent against Baltar.
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Post by Shan on Mar 17, 2005 13:27:40 GMT -5
I would like to mention something that is really beginning to strike me. I have a theory that Adama is actually training/testing Starbuck to take over for him (or perhaps Col. Tigh.) If one pays attention to all the tales that circulate about the "old man" during his younger years, you will geta definite feel that he was a "Starbuck" himself. Cocky, skilled, adept at pulling off the imposssible and thinking way outside the box. I feel that Adama has looked at his son and at Lt. Thrace and decided she's his worthy successor. Not that there is anything wrong with Apollo, but he seems much more hte politico type than Adama or Thrace is. His working with the president jsut sorta makes it clearer. While he could command and may be even readier for the job currently, Starbuck has the most potential if trained. In defense of htis idea I offer the following: -It is Starbuck that he sends to interrogate the Cylon. She is not the first person I would have picked, but I think it was supposed to be a growth situatiion and perhaps a test of sorts. Plus, she got to know her enemy. -Her working closely with the flight crew and other branchs aboard the ship are giving her a better feel for the Galactica as a whole world rather than her little fighter pilot part of it.. -His bringing her in to help mastermind the attack on the Cylon fuel depot demonstrates his understanding of her talents. It also provided her a hands on demonstration for the others, namely the president and her detractor, Tigh. -And finally, while it was her injury that truly sidelined her from flying the mission herself, her standing aboard the command deck and issuing commands, watching men necessarily die due to her orders while not engaged in combat herself was yet antoher step for her to learn dispassionate command skills. Yes, Starbuck is being groomed. Which only makes sense. If Adama or Tigh or both should ever buy the farm, it's not like they can ring up the Caprican version of hte Pentagon and get a new Commander. Someone will have to lead and, really, who has more potential than Lt. Thrace? Vlad Good points! I'd also like to add to the Starbuck-in-grooming roster of points in favor of it being a good idea: The fact that she's already been through another growth situation of facing up to her personal-life demons affecting her professional life. Col. Tigh doesn't seem ever to have done that properly, between his "wife" and his drinking problem. He may have managed to hold it together and be outstanding at what he does, but I don't think Adama is going to risk having Tigh and his issues in a position to put the whole fleet at risk. They can't afford it. It could be possible that Adama isn't just training her to replace one or the other of them should they die, it's possible he's training her to replace Col. Tigh before he does something really dangerous.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Mar 17, 2005 16:36:24 GMT -5
As I commented to my brother as I shared a tape with the last three episodes on it (for him to catch up): "BSG is sorta like waht Tom Clancy might write if he did a sci-fi tale.. There's a certain amount of right-wingness, without clobbering you over the head and a certain feel of patriotism and jingoism" (not in the negative connotation.) Theres no doubt about it, it's a military show, one that I imagine most military personel would enjoy watching. It's truly a different view of sci-fi, much as Star Trek covers the more or less left wing aspect of the future and Firefly covers the a sort of bleak apocolyptic type of future. Each one interestingly enough covers the same territory: how the human race survives and how it takes a group to so. Vlad Yes, it is a military show and I do have a military background as you know - my dad being career air force... it has a very Star Wars feel to me - especially the early Star Wars - with all the cool battles... I don't see the show as being right-winged, but then I don't see Star Trek as being left-winged...maybe I"m just the last remaining dodo - wingless. *grin*
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Mar 17, 2005 16:38:29 GMT -5
Good points! I'd also like to add to the Starbuck-in-grooming roster of points in favor of it being a good idea: The fact that she's already been through another growth situation of facing up to her personal-life demons affecting her professional life. Col. Tigh doesn't seem ever to have done that properly, between his "wife" and his drinking problem. He may have managed to hold it together and be outstanding at what he does, but I don't think Adama is going to risk having Tigh and his issues in a position to put the whole fleet at risk. They can't afford it. It could be possible that Adama isn't just training her to replace one or the other of them should they die, it's possible he's training her to replace Col. Tigh before he does something really dangerous. now there's a thought to make you go hmmm....
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Post by Lola m on Mar 17, 2005 17:24:07 GMT -5
Yes, it is a military show and I do have a military background as you know - my dad being career air force... it has a very Star Wars feel to me - especially the early Star Wars - with all the cool battles... I don't see the show as being right-winged, but then I don't see Star Trek as being left-winged...maybe I"m just the last remaining dodo - wingless. *grin* I don't see either as "winged" particularly, either. So we can be dodos together. Very much agree with Vlad's thoughts - and other folk's eetahs - re: Starbuck. This last episode in particular it very much struck me that Adama is thinking of her as someone to move up the chain of command. Replacement for Tigh or himself very likely and Shan's idea of an early replacement for Tigh is very very interesting. Also agree that he sees himself in her, what he was like as a young pilot, etc.
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Post by Lola m on Mar 17, 2005 21:34:53 GMT -5
Interesting review, Havoc!
I'm glad you reminded me that it is Galactica!Boomer that found the fuel ore. As you said, rather a coindence - and perhaps too big of a one. Although we are starting to suspect the allegience of the Boomers (are they perhaps a bit too human), it does make me continue to suspect that the sucessful fuel raid was perfectly OK with at least some of the Cylons. Because the (also) coincidental ability for Baltar to pick the exact right spot to hit - - well, I'm thinking Six had something to do with it. There's a larger plan afoot with at least a subset of the Cylons.
The "lighter" scene between Apollo and Adama was interesting to me not only because of the typically (for these two) awkward, yet sincere, bonding. But also because, as you point out, how it highlights the doubts and insecurities that Apollo displays. Starbucks comment earlier didn't help. Although, oddly, it may help later when he (rather uncharacteristically) takes the extremely risky and unusual tactic of flying through the ore transport tube. Perhaps the combination of "don't overthink" advice and the pressure of knowing others weren't sure he could do it were the extra push he needed. Also, of course, it is one more confirmation of Vlad's (and a lot of us now) theory that Adama is grooming Starbuck for a command position.
We certainly got a lot of preparation for the trip to Kobol. But, thinking of the original series, that doesn't mean we'll get there soon. References to it, to finding "Earth", to the "lost" other humans was present from the beginning then and yet we had a lot of adventures in between. I am finding the different versions and interpretations of prophesy and so on very interesting. One more way to compare the Human and Cylon way of thinking.
Your ideas about Baltar and possible avenues to more power, second to Roslin or succeeding her, etc. were very scary and thought provoking. I do find it interesting that while many are intrigued by Baltar and still think of him as a genius who is doing the most to help humanity, everyone seems to pull back from him. Mostly because of his odd behavior due to Six, but also I think he just set up a . . . wrong vibe in people. Some are a bit fascinated - Starbuck for example - but fascinated and a bit repelled, I think.
Loved your ending thoughts about Boomer and Helo.
Eetah! The Caprica stuff has really got me wondering what the heck is actually going on!
Lola
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