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Post by Dalton on Apr 23, 2004 12:44:41 GMT -5
//Spike The Vampire 1800-2003 That's Cousin Jean's site. She's usually pretty up on things. Where did she get 1800?? Anyone know? From 'he's not yet 200'?// In "The Initiative", Spike tells Willow he's 126. But in "School Hard", Giles says he's "barely two hundred", which he says is still quite young for a vampire (he also said Angel was young in "Angel", at an age of 240). Spike could have been lying about his age, the way James does.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 23, 2004 12:45:07 GMT -5
Patti - I tend to agree with you on the Angel/Spike sexual subtext (which is present) having never actually become text.
What seems unlikely to me is that Big Bad Angelus, who seems so into presenting himself as the manliest of men, who refers to Darla and Dru as "his women," and who mocks Spike at every opportunity as being sexually inadequate, would ever do anything to appear anything less than wholly masculine, especially to Spike. Even if Angel truly was a "poof," either due to orientation or just as a means of exerting power, even if he was going to gay vampire bars every night (are there such things, I wonder? Did Willy ever have special theme nights?) - I think Spike is the LAST person he would tell about it. Also, Spike's initial reaction to Angel's return in "Innocence" is to be glad Angel is back, and his reaction to the forehead kiss is laughter - he seems genuinely relaxed. In SchoolHard, he also hugs Angel in a very open manner . . . I'm just not getting the kind of vibes I'd expect if the situation were anything other than what it seems - two bristly males, trying constantly to outdo one another (with Angel forever as the alpha male, and Spike as the one - with all the gender bending imagery - who has to try harder, but can't ever seem as wholly masculine as Angel . . . because he's not).
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Post by Dalton on Apr 23, 2004 12:46:35 GMT -5
//Ooh...here's another idea...maybe it could have something to do with the amount of blood the new vamp drank. Like...if they had a jigger full, it might take days, but if they had a Big Gulp...they just POP right out of that grave!// Okay, this almost made me spit my soda on the computer screen. I just got a vision of a 24 hour 7-11 for vamps.
Betsy Lusby
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Post by Dalton on Apr 23, 2004 12:47:24 GMT -5
//I mentioned the same thing earlier - that some vampire mythology holds that the power of the new vamp is influenced by how much blood the sire gives them. So the length of time in the grave could follow that, too. // I'll buy that. And that also would then make sense as to why the sire vampire almost always was able to guess about the time the bew vampire would rise, and be there to greet them. Hence, we don't see Darla waiting for hours on end waiting for Angelus -- she seemed to know the very moment to be in the cemetary. Another question -- in the movie, Merrick seemed to know just when to have Buffy in the graveyard to introduce her to her first two vampires. Yes, it can be argued that the movie isn't canon, but if the graphic novel "The Origin" is to be believed that it is based on Joss' original vision (which is what he uses as backstory for BtVS and Angel), well that scene is in the novel. So how did Merrick know?
David Crenshaw
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Post by Dalton on Apr 23, 2004 12:48:00 GMT -5
Yeah, and the date on the screen during Fool for Love was 1870, wasn't it? It must be one of those CANON things - take your choice! Great discussion of vampire things tonight - I enjoyed it. I haven't really slept since 'Chosen' aired, as I've been so upset by the lack of any recognition by anyone on the show (except Buffy) of what Spike did. It's unfortunate, because it's really coloring my opinion of people I have long cared about - but I guess I went into this already on the last thread... Anyway, tonight - sleeping pills, or I won't be able to function anymore. They're kicking in now - goodnight! And thanks for the interesting discussion.
Mary Statz
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Post by Dalton on Apr 23, 2004 12:49:01 GMT -5
Working my way through part 33. Stupid computer keeps kicking off the internet. Taking a numbers break (don't have to read all the posts to count numbers). Since the finale 26 of the 29 "registered" S'cubies have weighed in (some more prolifically than others). Josh, Shannon and Meagan are MIA. Also, regular posters James, Anne D, Anne G, Lori, Laura, and Sandy have also posted. And new or nearly new posters are : Sabrina Synder, little booboo, gaya, Miguel and Jan Richards. Welcome to you all! (Total of 37 names in parts 32 and 33.) Okay, back to reading. ****Note to Patti: Thanks SO much for the hint on clicking on the + sign to open all the posts at once. It is making catching up go so much faster. Edited By Sue P at 5/22/2003 10:52:00 PM.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 23, 2004 12:49:36 GMT -5
//As for the movie, I personally, don't consider that as part of the series. It was merely the "idea seed" from which the series was born.// While it is true that Joss was never crazy about how his original script concept was mangled in the final product that appeared on the screen, it is still part of the Buffyverse -- or at least, Joss' original vision is. Much of the backstory for Buffy comes out of the movie.
David Crenshaw
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Post by Dalton on Apr 23, 2004 12:50:05 GMT -5
David said: ' In "The Initiative", Spike tells Willow he's 126. But in "School Hard", Giles says he's "barely two hundred", which he says is still quite young for a vampire (he also said Angel was young in "Angel", at an age of 240). David also said (but I forgot to copy it) that Spike ould have been lying about his age, as James has done. Funny, Dave. But wrong, I think in this case. If Angel was about 240...and Spike was 200, there would only be 40 years between their respective turnings. But this doesn't work. 1607 - Darla is turned (Darla) 1760 - Angel has already been turned, he meets the Master for the first time(Darla) 1880 - Spike is turned (Fool for Love ) 1898 - Angel is cursed with a soul(Darla) So Angel was turned over a hundred years before Spike was. 120 years at least. So if Angel was about 240, Spike was really about 120+
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Post by Dalton on Apr 23, 2004 12:50:39 GMT -5
//David also said (but I forgot to copy it) that Spike ould have been lying about his age, as James has done. Funny, Dave. But wrong, I think in this case. If Angel was about 240...and Spike was 200, there would only be 40 years between their respective turnings. But this doesn't work. // Agreed, Patti. I'm more prone to believe Spike in this case than Giles -- there's no reason for a vampire to lie about his age since they don't really age. I was making a funny. Mutant Enemy is pretty good with details, but they are horrible with math. Especially when it comes to the vampiric timelines. Don't forget, according to various Mutant Enemy dates given, Liam was three years old when Darla sired him. He was one seriously mature looking toddler, don't you think?
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Post by Dalton on Apr 23, 2004 12:51:10 GMT -5
David said: So how did Merrick know? (the vamps were going to rise) I was going to say, because Buffy had cramps, but that would have been how Buffy knew, not Merrick.
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 23, 2004 12:51:44 GMT -5
Yup, I'd confine to the teleplays AS PERFORMED (cut scenes or dialogue doesn't count, though it may be interesting and shed some light on something questionable or confusing). And I'd put the movie in with author's comments--interesting but not necessarly canonical. Many movies differ from their resultant TV series, and vice-versa. Such differences CANNOT be reconciled. They just have to be treated as two separate, but related, objects. Nobody has to play by my rules, but them ARE my rules. I'm a textualist. Doesn't that sound impressive? Nan
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Post by Dalton on Apr 23, 2004 12:52:22 GMT -5
//I was going to say, because Buffy had cramps, but that would have been how Buffy knew, not Merrick. // That was a power Buffy seemed to lose when she moved to Sunnydale. Either that, or the demon population was so prolific she started having the cramps nonstop and just chose to ignore them.
David Crenshaw
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Post by Dalton on Apr 23, 2004 12:53:08 GMT -5
//I'm a textualist. Doesn't that sound impressive?// I'm a Methodist. Nice to make your acquaintance ....
David Crenshaw
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Post by Dalton on Apr 23, 2004 12:53:47 GMT -5
Spring, Watergal is Micha. This gal is Macha. Both Canadians. Confusing, isn't it? Nan
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Post by Dalton on Apr 23, 2004 12:55:02 GMT -5
Spike is turned in 1880 - as we see in Fool For Love. We see the Initiative in the Fall of '99. As a vampire, Spike is 119. So he's not 126. Now you could say, OK, but he's added his human years. But of course, that would only work if Spike had been 7 years old when he was turned. So 126 is screwy, no matter how you look at it. As Joss has said - he sucks at Math. Plus, I don't think he gives a hoot about that sort of consistency. Also, the age confusion actually could be a deliberate reference to the JM age confusion, as I think Joss did quite a bit of adding bits and pieces of what was real about the actors into the storyline.
Spring Summers
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