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Post by Sara on Oct 28, 2006 19:47:40 GMT -5
So, did anyone else think that one of the reasons Kara demanded that Gaeta beg for his life was to give the jury a reason not to execute him?
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Post by Sara on Oct 28, 2006 19:53:06 GMT -5
Oh, he's saved. What, three models for, three against, and one undecided? So there are seven models? Yeah. 1. Six 2. Sharon 3. Three 4. Leoben 5. Cavil 6. The Newsanchor Guy 7. The doctor at The Farm Seven that we've seen--Ron Moore had said there are 12 altogether. The ones we've met are: Number Two: Brother Cavil model Number Three: D'Anna Biers model Number Five: Aaron Doral (the Newsanchor Guy) model Number Six: Gina model Number Eight: Sharon Valerii model Leoben Conoy Simon (the doctor at the Farm)
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Post by Shan on Oct 28, 2006 22:02:44 GMT -5
So, did anyone else think that one of the reasons Kara demanded that Gaeta beg for his life was to give the jury a reason not to execute him? It's a nice thought and I'd like to think it of Kara myself because I'm a great big Karafangirl, but...unfortunately, no. Kara's a straightforward person. Thought goes from head to mouth and/or action. We've seen that from her over and over. And now that she's in a "safe" place again aboard the Galactica and away from the daily mindfrak that was living with Loeben, I think that just as she said to Sam, she wanted to hurt someone. Anyone, unfortunately. Like so many of the evacuees, apparently. But Kara didn't dress it up in fancy legalese, like the rest of the Circle. Kara was too isolated to have the space in her head to consider what anyone like Gaeta might have been doing to help her and the other humans on New Caprica. She didn't care what Gaeta told her about his attempts to assist the insurgents because none of it was real to her; her reality was partly what Leoben had engineered from Day One and partly what she managed to hold onto herself from sheer willpower. Kara knew that nobody ever came for her, even Sam, until the mass exodus (which will end up being another conversation, I don't doubt, even if it's not with Sam). So with Gaeta? I think she truly wanted him to beg just as SHE had begged...at the bars of her cell, over and over, to no avail. Not flattering to one of my favorite characters but...not many of them involved in the Circle have behaved well, IMO, except for Anders and the Chief. <edit> Okay, Saul to a certain extent for head-bashing the one guy.
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Post by Onjel on Oct 29, 2006 0:29:53 GMT -5
So, did anyone else think that one of the reasons Kara demanded that Gaeta beg for his life was to give the jury a reason not to execute him? Oh definitely! I really wanted him to listen to her and start spilling! She needed to have him tell them because they weren't going to listen to anyone else and as long as someone was present who could verify his statements and that he couldn't have known certain facts without being the contact, he stood a chance. I think she wanted to hurt someone, but also deep down wanted the summary executions to end and bring an end to any involvement she might have and put her one step closer to leaving the surface and its torment of her brain behind and one step closer to being made whole. Maybe not a large, large step, but a step nonetheless. I think her conscious mind wanted him to beg, but underneath it all, it she knew she wouldn't feel any better until she exorcised her own demons. The surface explanation for behavior such as hers isn't necessarily the true explanation and there might be, and I believe in this case there were, underlying needs and issues not addressed and she was asking for help in the only way she knew how at that time. Of course, I could be putting my mediator training spin on this whole thing and be completely wrong. ;D
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Post by Karen on Oct 29, 2006 11:58:07 GMT -5
So, did anyone else think that one of the reasons Kara demanded that Gaeta beg for his life was to give the jury a reason not to execute him? I think that was one of the reasons. I also think that she was angry at herself for showing weakness to the enemy in order to save Kacey and for being played like she was and she took it out on Gaeta. She, more than any of them on the death squad jury, knew from experience that even the strongest and loyal of soldiers can have a weakness that will cause them to collaborate with the enemy. There reasons for doing so are as varied as we have seen in BSG. Ellen - did it to save Saul (and would keep doing whatever it took), Jammer - because he thought he could do more good from the inside (Angel at W&H?) - only up to the point where his friend was in danger, and Gaeta collaborated as a loyal aid to Baltar, fed information to the insurgents when he could. All choices that humans make in a time of war. They fight according to what they can tolerate. (Saul would have died rather than collaborate, Ellen would have collaborated and sold her soul rather than have Saul die - 2 extremes.) Kara's weakness was a child - specifically, hers. To save her child, she was willing to finally give in and tell Leoben that she loved him. Of course, it didn't mean a thing to her - I hope - but it was a surrender in principle - and a show of weakness. I also think that she was fed-up with the war in general and vengeance, in particular - and her first comment when asked to be on the jury was that she assumed it was illegal. (She is afterall, Adama's protegee - and he had the same reaction to Zarack's death squad decree.) She votes guilty - has a discussion with her husband about wanting to hurt him, kisses him goodbye, and then is faced with a noble Gaeta who refuses to beg for his life. She beats on him because she - at that point - realizes what he told her in the caffeteria is probably true, and also knows that he needs to be the one to tell them. It was a turning point for Kara. Like Onjel said, a start to being made whole again.
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Post by Rachael on Oct 29, 2006 12:21:40 GMT -5
So, did anyone else think that one of the reasons Kara demanded that Gaeta beg for his life was to give the jury a reason not to execute him? No. I thought it was to give herself a reason not to execute him.
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Post by Rachael on Oct 29, 2006 12:31:48 GMT -5
Wow!! They did it. They really did it. From the start, when they had the tribunal and they were killing the collaborators, I thought, they're following the "usual" format. Keep the cycle of hate going. One side wins and so it punishes the other. Then if that side starts to win, they take revenge. And then the other side feels justified in revenging that. And so on. And yet there is another model. One that is infinitely harder. One that takes even more courage and work - but it is worth everything. It's what they did in South Africa, what they are still doing. I thought about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. What does that mean, though, for Tigh, who killed his wife? Ellen would be pardoned, now, too. Dave and I watched both episodes back to back last night, and I was dead-set against killing Ellen. I didn't think it had any practical benefit, and would do a lot of emotional harm. People who collaborate almost all think they have a good reason; very few are doing it for purely selfish reasons of self-aggrandizement...so I was horrified first with Ellen, and then with the Circle. Secret "courts" killing people...ugh. And what real good did they think the Circle was doing? Lowering the already-too-small human population still further...killing people with no real opportunity to defend themselves. Dave suggested that it was "to show others that collaboration wasn't acceptable" - but I pointed out that you can't do that with a secret court. It's all about vengeance, not justice. There can be no "justice" for what those people did. There's no making it right. There can be vengeance, punishment, or forgiveness. Oh, yeah. But Tigh's gonna be a problem, even more now that he knows Ellen could have been saved. He can't accept that the President's decision is right without admitting he murdered his own wife, so I predict he won't accept the decision.
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Post by Rachael on Oct 29, 2006 12:34:44 GMT -5
So the Resistance is The Circle. Summary trials. Jammer... One Versus 23. Jammer, these ARE the insurgents you are talking with. 3rd day of 2nd Exodus. This can't continue long..... "Isn't what I signed up for" Once I learned that this was all "legal", ordered by President Zarak, I understood better how Chief and him even got involved. But I'm not surprised they started to balk at things. I was still massively disappointed in the Chief for voting "guilty" when his conscience was telling him not to. It has to be unanimous, Chief. You're the only one who can save the guy. Vote not guilty. Refuse to change your mind. Don't give in to peer pressure!
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Post by Karen on Oct 29, 2006 12:44:32 GMT -5
Wow!! They did it. They really did it. From the start, when they had the tribunal and they were killing the collaborators, I thought, they're following the "usual" format. Keep the cycle of hate going. One side wins and so it punishes the other. Then if that side starts to win, they take revenge. And then the other side feels justified in revenging that. And so on. And yet there is another model. One that is infinitely harder. One that takes even more courage and work - but it is worth everything. It's what they did in South Africa, what they are still doing. I thought about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. What does that mean, though, for Tigh, who killed his wife? Ellen would be pardoned, now, too. Dave and I watched both episodes back to back last night, and I was dead-set against killing Ellen. I didn't think it had any practical benefit, and would do a lot of emotional harm. People who collaborate almost all think they have a good reason; very few are doing it for purely selfish reasons of self-aggrandizement...so I was horrified first with Ellen, and then with the Circle. Secret "courts" killing people...ugh. And what real good did they think the Circle was doing? Lowering the already-too-small human population still further...killing people with no real opportunity to defend themselves. Dave suggested that it was "to show others that collaboration wasn't acceptable" - but I pointed out that you can't do that with a secret court. It's all about vengeance, not justice. There can be no "justice" for what those people did. There's no making it right. There can be vengeance, punishment, or forgiveness. Oh, yeah. But Tigh's gonna be a problem, even more now that he knows Ellen could have been saved. He can't accept that the President's decision is right without admitting he murdered his own wife, so I predict he won't accept the decision. Tigh is definitely going to be a problem, but he does have a bit of wriggle room in believing he murdered his wife, if he chooses to see it, because Ellen asked for the cup of poison. He made a vague but angry comment referring to that in this ep when he was ranting on the bridge. Adama tells him to go sleep it off, and Tigh responds with "Oh yeah, just go to sleep. Forget it all. Just forget about everything." Just like Ellen did. I read that comment as reflecting Tigh's anger towards what Ellen did, as well as anger that the collaborators (Gaeta by Adama) were getting a pass, while he and Sam had made the decision in the heat of war to not give Ellen one.
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Post by Karen on Oct 29, 2006 12:46:34 GMT -5
Once I learned that this was all "legal", ordered by President Zarak, I understood better how Chief and him even got involved. But I'm not surprised they started to balk at things. I was still massively disappointed in the Chief for voting "guilty" when his conscience was telling him not to. It has to be unanimous, Chief. You're the only one who can save the guy. Vote not guilty. Refuse to change your mind. Don't give in to peer pressure! Oh, me, too! I was so disappointed in him. That's why I was glad to see him redeem himself at the end and sit at the table with Gaeta. That took courage.
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Post by Shan on Oct 29, 2006 14:52:25 GMT -5
Wow, you guys...interesting multiple takes on Kara's motivations. I'm not as good at reading between peoples' lines, I guess. Which is probably why I've always liked Kara so much. Everybody's going to be different in some way after New Caprica. <edit> Pardon me, can I just state the obvious?
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Post by Shan on Oct 29, 2006 14:56:25 GMT -5
I re-watched the ep yesterday and the scene with Tigh ranting at Gaeta gave me an even stronger impression than the first time that he wasn't so much referring to his missing eye as his missing wife.
Ellen's an even sadder and more pointless death now.
Still more fallout to come.
DAMN these writers!
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Post by Shan on Oct 29, 2006 15:04:48 GMT -5
I was still massively disappointed in the Chief for voting "guilty" when his conscience was telling him not to. It has to be unanimous, Chief. You're the only one who can save the guy. Vote not guilty. Refuse to change your mind. Don't give in to peer pressure! Oh, me, too! I was so disappointed in him. That's why I was glad to see him redeem himself at the end and sit at the table with Gaeta. That took courage. I'm interested in seeing whether any of the rest of The Six make any attempt to redeem themselves for what they did.
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Post by Matthew on Oct 29, 2006 15:15:48 GMT -5
So, did anyone else think that one of the reasons Kara demanded that Gaeta beg for his life was to give the jury a reason not to execute him? No, unfortunately: I think she was taking her rage out on yet another person who failed to help her for the four months when she was held in solitary with Leoben. I think she was mocking him, and hurting him, and trying to actually break Gaeta down the way she was finally broken down at the end, by Leoben. I don't think there was any doubt in her but that he should die for his crimes. She just wanted to destroy something. Revenge.
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Post by Matthew on Oct 29, 2006 15:20:56 GMT -5
Wow!! They did it. They really did it. From the start, when they had the tribunal and they were killing the collaborators, I thought, they're following the "usual" format. Keep the cycle of hate going. One side wins and so it punishes the other. Then if that side starts to win, they take revenge. And then the other side feels justified in revenging that. And so on. And yet there is another model. One that is infinitely harder. One that takes even more courage and work - but it is worth everything. It's what they did in South Africa, what they are still doing. I thought about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. What does that mean, though, for Tigh, who killed his wife? Ellen would be pardoned, now, too. Dave and I watched both episodes back to back last night, and I was dead-set against killing Ellen. I didn't think it had any practical benefit, and would do a lot of emotional harm. People who collaborate almost all think they have a good reason; very few are doing it for purely selfish reasons of self-aggrandizement...so I was horrified first with Ellen, and then with the Circle. Secret "courts" killing people...ugh. And what real good did they think the Circle was doing? Lowering the already-too-small human population still further...killing people with no real opportunity to defend themselves. Dave suggested that it was "to show others that collaboration wasn't acceptable" - but I pointed out that you can't do that with a secret court. It's all about vengeance, not justice. There can be no "justice" for what those people did. There's no making it right. There can be vengeance, punishment, or forgiveness. Oh, yeah. But Tigh's gonna be a problem, even more now that he knows Ellen could have been saved. He can't accept that the President's decision is right without admitting he murdered his own wife, so I predict he won't accept the decision. I think Tigh will be okay with the President's decision: I get the feeling that he would think that such a thing was only possible because he and his "co-jurors" did the dirty work of clearing out the worst of the possible collaborators. And I think as much as he loves Ellen, that she is still on that list for him, because she nearly destroyed the whole thing, even if what she did was out of love for him, personally. I don't think that the President's pardon is gonna mean anything to him, so much, nor would it if he'd left Ellen alive to deal with later.
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