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Post by KMInfinity on Jun 24, 2004 6:17:15 GMT -5
<snip> I think this is coming right out of the Watcher handbook. IMO, of course, but I've always had a suspicion about those Watchers. Dominance games with a teensy bit of skanky-ness sounds just like them to me. I'm thinking he's trying to be textbook Watcher guy, but it's not really him, is it? Not the mixture of Ripper and sweet Giles that is his true personality. So the stuff comes out all warped when he tries to act the way he thinks he has to. yeah, exactly. Especially given how he changes when he gets fired. When Ethan turns up to tell him off for letting the costume define him, he just isnt wrong. Watcher Giles is not Rupert Giles the individual whole person. Its a badly fitting suit, not suitable for the climate or the surroundings. Doesnt fit in anywhere. In this ep Giles has the sleeves on the jacket pushed up a bit but it doesnt work very well. He wears more layers than anyone else there, and whilst it works as armour it so doest work for the right amount of warm. Also according to ASH it smells of mothballs. Which is clothes out of storage, not clothes as are actually worn. The whole Watcher persona doesnt fit and puts him all off balance. The whole issue of the Watchers and how they fit into the Jossverse is one I haven't really thought much about. Since it's clearly a significant organization connected to the slayers, I wonder how Giles got the "job" of being Buffy's watcher? Was he next in line? Was there some mystical message to the Council? Especially when we factor in what we learn about the Watchers' Council later, Giles seems to be an unlikely choice to be Watching the Slayer. I guess it could be that qualified Watchers are in short supply. The canon seems to be that a Watcher watches only one Slayer. If she dies, he is retired. So there could be a need for more than one Watcher in a year. I have the sense from backstory and subtext, that Buffy's unusual in surviving so long.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jun 24, 2004 8:34:59 GMT -5
The whole issue of the Watchers and how they fit into the Jossverse is one I haven't really thought much about. Since it's clearly a significant organization connected to the slayers, I wonder how Giles got the "job" of being Buffy's watcher? Was he next in line? Was there some mystical message to the Council? Especially when we factor in what we learn about the Watchers' Council later, Giles seems to be an unlikely choice to be Watching the Slayer. I guess it could be that qualified Watchers are in short supply. The canon seems to be that a Watcher watches only one Slayer. If she dies, he is retired. So there could be a need for more than one Watcher in a year. I have the sense from backstory and subtext, that Buffy's unusual in surviving so long. in the film the Watcher had watched a whole bunch of Slayers. But the film mutated far from the script. There is a lack of canon about how many Slayers per Watcher, as far as I can see. Slayers usually dont live long. Buffy didnt the first time. Kendra didnt. I think Giles didnt expect to be watching Buffy very long. I pin that on the words 'I keep a flat in Bath'. He never totally moved to America, he kept a flat. For years. Waiting for the Slayer to die. I have a theory but there is no actual evidence to support it. My theory is they didnt send the best Watchers to look after the active Slayer, they sent the worst. The ex rebel and the... I want to say incompetent nincompoop but I love Wesley too much. Sorta. Anyways, my theory goes, Watchers to active Slayers get killed. Buffy's first Watcher, Faith's Watcher, both killed. Even while abiding by the rules, and just Watching, not getting involved. So they wouldnt want to send the really valuable people. Send someone who can be spared. And in Giles case, someone with their very own reference library. And a back up library. Is handy because the Watchers Council didnt have to send anything extra with him. Wes didnt bring many belongings, used Giles books. So could be a rare bonus extra. I think from available evidence the primary job of a Watcher is to train the *potential* Slayers, something neither Giles nor Wesley had done, as far as we know. A potential's training starts in childhood, possibly infancy, and goes right up to about 15 when they are called. That would mean to train one potential Slayer would take between 7 and 14 years. Only a couple of trainees in a career. Slayers are raised to be alone, seperate, so there isnt a Slayer school, just a bunch of kids with Watcher tuition. That would be pretty manpower intensive. And then what happens when they arent called? Again a skinny on the evidence theory, but I think they get to be Watchers. The Watcher Academy that we know about is an all boys school. So where to the lady Watchers train, like the ex Watcher who went after the glove, or the lady who studied Spike, or Giles' grandmother? I think they were potential Slayers who got too old to be called. Like I said, no evidence, but I like the story dynamics it would give. What I find interesting is that Giles got to that point in his career without having trained a Slayer at all. If theres a whole bunch of potential Slayers for every actually called Slayer, and a new one gets called every other year, that would be a ton of Watchers worldwide needed just to train potentials. So why wasnt Giles one of them? Other Watcher duties include research, admin, and those hunter teams that came after Faith, plus RWP and his lot facing Spike back in the day. So there is more going on than just Potentials and Slayers. Giles was in research. Worked in a museum. Was that a cover story? Was it a Watcher museum? Or do Watchers all have day jobs, same way Giles was only studying the occult after school when at uni? There is only a tiny bit of canon about the Watchers, and I've spent ages spinning stuff out from there to make a background for fanfic Giles, so I have a lot of thoughts. But the facts are way too skinny to say anything more than- There is a Watchers Council of Great Britain but there are Watchers in other countries too There is an all boys Watchers Academy in southern Hampshire, England Some Watchers do field work some do research some train potentials one at a time is Watcher to the active Slayer Potentials are trained from a very early age, but not in an academy. Slayers dont usually last long Potentials and Slayers work with only one Watcher there is a handbook for how to train Slayers. Giles ignored it. Being a Watcher is a family business- Giles, his father, his grandmother; Wesley, his father. Giles was told he was going to be a Watcher when he was 10. Not given a choice. Wesley knew about resurrection scrolls before that. Their childhood and educational experiences seems to be a bit different. Watchers can get fired. They can also get accepted back. I can back all those statements up with quotes. It doesnt add up to much.
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Post by Karen on Jun 24, 2004 8:52:10 GMT -5
Anyways, my theory goes, Watchers to active Slayers get killed. Buffy's first Watcher, Faith's Watcher, both killed. Even while abiding by the rules, and just Watching, not getting involved. So they wouldnt want to send the really valuable people. Send someone who can be spared. And in Giles case, someone with their very own reference library. And a back up library. Is handy because the Watchers Council didnt have to send anything extra with him. Wes didnt bring many belongings, used Giles books. So could be a rare bonus extra. Thinking on your "Giles in front of a cage in the library", I wonder if that cage was there more for his use - to lock himself inside - just in case the demons/vampires got too close. Giles was very much like Lorne at the beginning - not much of a fighter.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jun 24, 2004 8:57:17 GMT -5
Thinking on your "Giles in front of a cage in the library", I wonder if that cage was there more for his use - to lock himself inside - just in case the demons/vampires got too close. Giles was very much like Lorne at the beginning - not much of a fighter. I rather disagree with that. Lorne cant fight. Giles is good enough to train others. Huge difference in skill level. Giles wasnt originally inclined to fight, true, because he'd been taught it wasnt proper. Cage to protect himself? Maybe. But cages arent usually symbolically for that. Also its kinda useless if they have either projectile weapons or long pointy sticks.
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Post by Karen on Jun 24, 2004 14:03:22 GMT -5
I rather disagree with that. Lorne cant fight. Giles is good enough to train others. Huge difference in skill level. Giles wasnt originally inclined to fight, true, because he'd been taught it wasnt proper. Cage to protect himself? Maybe. But cages arent usually symbolically for that. Also its kinda useless if they have either projectile weapons or long pointy sticks. I was under the impression that Lorne could fight, but chose not to - or didn't like to. Giles could train others - but it seemed like he was doing it by the book, not from any special skill. Ha! I did think about the pointy stick angle after I posted.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jun 24, 2004 14:21:54 GMT -5
I was under the impression that Lorne could fight, but chose not to - or didn't like to. Giles could train others - but it seemed like he was doing it by the book, not from any special skill. I dont really know what you mean by 'by the book'. When Giles was introducing Buffy to the Quarterstaff he mentioned long years of arduous training, which he had gone through. He rules with a sword. Fighting the duellist cult vampires he wiped the floor with them. Martial arts training is part of the basic Watcher package so they can train the Slayers. Lorne on the other hand had chosen not to take the training his cousin had and was therefore considered really strange. I dont remember him picking up a weapon, just hitting high notes. Big difference.
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Post by Karen on Jun 24, 2004 16:47:39 GMT -5
I dont really know what you mean by 'by the book'. When Giles was introducing Buffy to the Quarterstaff he mentioned long years of arduous training, which he had gone through. He rules with a sword. Fighting the duellist cult vampires he wiped the floor with them. Martial arts training is part of the basic Watcher package so they can train the Slayers. Lorne on the other hand had chosen not to take the training his cousin had and was therefore considered really strange. I dont remember him picking up a weapon, just hitting high notes. Big difference. I didn't know that about Giles. I wonder why he was shown to be kind of inept when it came to fighting then. It seemed like he was getting knocked around quite a bit in the first few seasons.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jun 24, 2004 17:31:45 GMT -5
I didn't know that about Giles. I wonder why he was shown to be kind of inept when it came to fighting then. It seemed like he was getting knocked around quite a bit in the first few seasons. Oh he is forever getting knocked on the head. Or punched by Buffy. Or shot in the back by Jenny. Usually the common factor is surprise. Also super strength. Even a very skilled human is still at a considerable disadvantage against vamps and demos and Slayers with more than human strength and speed. But for all his injuries I never quite saw 'inept' once the fighting started. I'll watch to see if my memory made him shiny, but mostly I think he did good in fights.
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Post by Karen on Jun 24, 2004 18:51:43 GMT -5
Oh he is forever getting knocked on the head. Or punched by Buffy. Or shot in the back by Jenny. Usually the common factor is surprise. Also super strength. Even a very skilled human is still at a considerable disadvantage against vamps and demos and Slayers with more than human strength and speed. But for all his injuries I never quite saw 'inept' once the fighting started. I'll watch to see if my memory made him shiny, but mostly I think he did good in fights. I'll have to watch for it, too. And I did say "kind of". But he never shied away from a fight - that I can recall. It's going to be good to rewatch from the beginning and talk to you guys. Geesh, and we haven't even started on Xander and his skateboard.
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Post by Queen E on Jun 24, 2004 19:31:25 GMT -5
I dont really know what you mean by 'by the book'. Actually, Kendra brings up "The Slayer Handbook," in "What's My Line, Part 2." Buffy evinces surprise that one exists, and Giles responds with: "After meeting you, Buffy, I realized that, uh, the handbook would be of no use in your case." I think that is what Karen was referring to.
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Post by Lola m on Jun 25, 2004 5:19:01 GMT -5
I'll have to watch for it, too. And I did say "kind of". But he never shied away from a fight - that I can recall. It's be good to rewatch from the beginning and talk to you guys. Geesh, and we haven't even started on Xander and his skateboard. Yeah - we never see the skateboard again, do we? I wonder if he was just "trying it out" that day. Trying to find what was gonna be his thing - like is he skateboard guy or (later) car guy - etc. He's not very good with the skateboarding yet on that day, so I could easily see it as something he was testing for it's coolness factor. Then he dropped it when he got hooked by the new scoobie gang stuff. But isn't he just the little cutie? All gangly and floppy haired and trying so hard to talk to Buffy and failing miserably. And true to form, Jesse is the one who keeps trying to get together with Cordy while Xander just keeps trading jibes. Lola
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Post by Rachael on Jun 25, 2004 6:32:35 GMT -5
Yeah - we never see the skateboard again, do we? I wonder if he was just "trying it out" that day. Trying to find what was gonna be his thing - like is he skateboard guy or (later) car guy - etc. He's not very good with the skateboarding yet on that day, so I could easily see it as something he was testing for it's coolness factor. Then he dropped it when he got hooked by the new scoobie gang stuff. But isn't he just the little cutie? All gangly and floppy haired and trying so hard to talk to Buffy and failing miserably. And true to form, Jesse is the one who keeps trying to get together with Cordy while Xander just keeps trading jibes. Lola I think it's really hard to film a guy on a skateboard well. Rachael, just woke up, so with the depressing literality
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Post by Karen on Jun 25, 2004 7:38:01 GMT -5
Yeah - we never see the skateboard again, do we? I wonder if he was just "trying it out" that day. Trying to find what was gonna be his thing - like is he skateboard guy or (later) car guy - etc. He's not very good with the skateboarding yet on that day, so I could easily see it as something he was testing for it's coolness factor. Then he dropped it when he got hooked by the new scoobie gang stuff. But isn't he just the little cutie? All gangly and floppy haired and trying so hard to talk to Buffy and failing miserably. And true to form, Jesse is the one who keeps trying to get together with Cordy while Xander just keeps trading jibes. Lola He was just the sweetest, funniest guy. Maybe the skateboard was a metaphor for how he'd been just skating along in his life until he met Buffy - and then WHAM - his life changes. And this has probably been said before.
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Post by Karen on Jun 25, 2004 7:45:51 GMT -5
Actually, Kendra brings up "The Slayer Handbook," in "What's My Line, Part 2." Buffy evinces surprise that one exists, and Giles responds with: "After meeting you, Buffy, I realized that, uh, the handbook would be of no use in your case." I think that is what Karen was referring to. I guess Giles did ignore the handbook in Buffy's case, but it was all he had to go on, so I think he based a lot of his instruction of her on it - but winged the details. Even with all the training against the vampires and such, I still had the feeling that fighting was not his element. Like Lorne.
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Post by Barb on Jun 25, 2004 8:05:45 GMT -5
Yeah - we never see the skateboard again, do we? I wonder if he was just "trying it out" that day. Trying to find what was gonna be his thing - like is he skateboard guy or (later) car guy - etc. He's not very good with the skateboarding yet on that day, so I could easily see it as something he was testing for it's coolness factor. Then he dropped it when he got hooked by the new scoobie gang stuff. But isn't he just the little cutie? All gangly and floppy haired and trying so hard to talk to Buffy and failing miserably. And true to form, Jesse is the one who keeps trying to get together with Cordy while Xander just keeps trading jibes. Lola The skateboard disappears shortly after Jesse got turned. I mentioned on page 1 that the skateboard could be a metaphor for his innocence about the creatures that go bump in the night. The skateboard makes him seem even younger. When Jesse dies, when Xander stakes him, he (X) is forced to grow up (at least on the inside) quickly. Part of that could manifest in giving up his skateboard, a sign of youth. Or, you know, it could have just been a pain in the ass as a prop.
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