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Post by Rachael on Aug 2, 2008 0:25:13 GMT -5
One more thing....
Davros wanting to destroy the universe, I can almost understand. Dude's loopy, has been for ages.
The DALEKS going along with it? That I just don't buy. There's no logic to destroying the universe. You lose Manchester United and all the happy meals on legs and everything else. What's the point of being a Dalek if there's no universe to fill with your repulsive Nazi kind?
Oh, and - DT and CT were absolutely amazing, especially the way they mastered one another's mannerisms.
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Post by Sue on Aug 2, 2008 8:47:45 GMT -5
Okay.... 1) I find the ending with Donna to be the saddest thing ever. I'm very dissatisfied with how they disposed of her. I'd rather she died a hero than go back to being the woman who doesn't think she's anything special. 2) I find the ending with Rose to be satisfying and yet frustrating. Felt like fan wish-fulfillment more than solid storytelling. So Rose gets herself a Doctor with all the negatives taken out? How very AU fanfic of them. 3) I absolutely adored Old Home Week. Seeing all those names in the opening credits, and having everyone turn up for the conclusion was great. 4) The overall season construction continues to be impressive. The DoctorDonna clues and foreshadowing were there all along, just like Bad Wolf. 5) I honestly have no problem with genocide when it's the Daleks being genocided. I'll make an exception to my "no genocide" rule for a race with absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever. The biggest mistake the Doctor ever made, IMO, was not destroying them all in "Genesis of the Daleks". 6) Not nearly enough naked Doctor. 7) "I can't tell you what I'm thinking right now." Hee! #agree# Well put. Although, Lola (and a good night's sleep) may have swayed me a tiny bit. I still find it to be horribly sad. But probably wouldn't say "I'd rather she died." I just hope that the trajectory of her life changes from this moment in time. Maybe her mother will be more supportive and maybe deep, deep down the experience has changed her somewhat. In some future episode I'd love to see a glimpse of future!Donna and find her fulfilled and contributing to humanity in some way; whether it be career, service, motherhood, art, whatever.
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Post by KMInfinity on Aug 2, 2008 9:15:30 GMT -5
Wow there is so much to love about this finale and so much to ponder since there’s so much that’s ambiguous, for me.
For me, the saddest thing of all is Donna’s fate – imo, literally a *fate worse than death* as Sue said since an honorable death is one of those tropes that signifies a hero, and Donna is/was indeed a hero. But I have a big problem with the fact that The Doctor made the decision to wipe her memories without her input. Maybe she’d have chosen that fate to escape death. Maybe she’d have rather died. It should have been her choice.
It brings to mind all of these questions about identity and reincarnation and essence and those “soul” issues about Angel and Spike, because – is Donna still even Donna? Will her forgotten memories still play a part in her “soul” and now she’ll have that self-esteem and sense of achievement, despite the memory loss, and so she can go on to have a life of importance, or maybe even a significant impact on humanity thanks to her unremembered experiences. Or, from Lola’s POV, does Donna have a “Donna essence” she is free to explore in a new human way, so that’s okay?
But for me it seems like loss. Like, she’d been nagged forever by this feeling that she isn’t good enough, just a temp, longing for meaning…and she proves it false. Now she has to do it all over again? Is that fair? Maybe she won't make such courageous choices in this humdrum life. Maybe she'll slide into that despair that comes from a mundane life if she doesn't have the challenges presented by travelling with The Doctor, which I could totally see. And as I'm typing I'm thinking - wow, I'm really very harsh about a normal human existence, yikes.
To me this represents a lack of growth. The core of her essence, anyone’s essence imo, is the sum of their experiences and how they affect you and change you and how you *Become* you. She’s been “reset” and maybe she can become (already always was?) something important, not that insignificant nothing she feared she was, but she’ll never *be* the DoctorDonna, never be The Doctor’s companion, never be the woman who rescued the OOd, who saved planets, who saved the universes. She won’t be that Donna.
Overall, it just really made me sad that Donna not only lost her future journeyings, but also lost all her Doctor/Tardis adventures in the past.
I have other thoughts and comments to add later, but most of my angst last night was about Donna. Who I really didn't even like much until Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead. How bloody brilliant is that!
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Post by Rachael on Aug 2, 2008 9:56:22 GMT -5
Okay.... 1) I find the ending with Donna to be the saddest thing ever. I'm very dissatisfied with how they disposed of her. I'd rather she died a hero than go back to being the woman who doesn't think she's anything special. 2) I find the ending with Rose to be satisfying and yet frustrating. Felt like fan wish-fulfillment more than solid storytelling. So Rose gets herself a Doctor with all the negatives taken out? How very AU fanfic of them. 3) I absolutely adored Old Home Week. Seeing all those names in the opening credits, and having everyone turn up for the conclusion was great. 4) The overall season construction continues to be impressive. The DoctorDonna clues and foreshadowing were there all along, just like Bad Wolf. 5) I honestly have no problem with genocide when it's the Daleks being genocided. I'll make an exception to my "no genocide" rule for a race with absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever. The biggest mistake the Doctor ever made, IMO, was not destroying them all in "Genesis of the Daleks". 6) Not nearly enough naked Doctor. 7) "I can't tell you what I'm thinking right now." Hee! #agree# Well put. Although, Lola (and a good night's sleep) may have swayed me a tiny bit. I still find it to be horribly sad. But probably wouldn't say "I'd rather she died." I just hope that the trajectory of her life changes from this moment in time. Maybe her mother will be more supportive and maybe deep, deep down the experience has changed her somewhat. In some future episode I'd love to see a glimpse of future!Donna and find her fulfilled and contributing to humanity in some way; whether it be career, service, motherhood, art, whatever. In thinking it over, and sleeping on it, I've concluded that it's incredibly sad, but also excellent storytelling. Unlike the Rose/DoctorLight ending, I can't object to it based on plot. It was simply gorgeous, and horrible. This morning, though, something else that sort of bothers me about the whole thing gave itself words: we were given to believe that Donna was something/someone truly amazing and special, for weeks. But the payoff was more that she was a vessel for something amazing - more like the Virgin Mary than Jesus, you know? Not enough was really done to emphasize why it had to be Donna - why her, why was she needed to be the person who merged with the Doctor? I can fanwank the reasons, and I even think they're the right ones, but I would have liked it to be at least a little explicit. As with, "She was better when she was with you!" Someone needed to point out that HE was better when he was with HER, too. Just because it's so easy to lose the symbolism of the regeneration energy crisis thingy: It's a two-way transfer. BOTH benefit from it. As with all good relationships. We get to hear how Rose was good for the Doctor, but we should have got to hear him say how good Donna was for him, too. No little schoolgirl crushes - just a friend who points out when he's not being human enough. Oh, and also? Dave explained it to me...it/he's still in there. We think he didn't wipe her memories so much as block the synapses required to access them. Because any memory of him might give her just enough spark to access what he gave her, and her conscious brain can't handle it. Otherwise, why not just remove the bits of his own consciousness and leave behind her memories? So I have hope that her unconscious brain will do humanly great things with what he left her.
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Post by Rachael on Aug 2, 2008 9:57:08 GMT -5
Oh, and can I just say:
In order for a Dalek to have any redeeming qualities, like a conscience, it has to be mad....
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Aug 2, 2008 9:57:40 GMT -5
I don't know how badly I feel for Donna. As awful as it is to take away her memories, It's terrible to recall what happens to companions when they lose the Doctor. Losing her memories doesn't negate what she did, it only eliminates her suffering the separation. She remains Donna. And if that's what the Doctor had to do to save her, then difficult as it was--it was the right choice. Here's hoping her naggy, whiny and occasionally vindictive mother doesn't spill the beans sometime when she's mad at Donna for something.
So Rose gets a "Doctor" of her very own. How nice. What does Martha--who accomplished much more and who truly loves him--get?
Mickey? Gee.
More thoughts when I have time to think them.
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Post by Rachael on Aug 2, 2008 10:11:48 GMT -5
I don't know how badly I feel for Donna. As awful as it is to take away her memories, It's terrible to recall what happens to companions when they lose the Doctor. Losing her memories doesn't negate what she did, it only eliminates her suffering the separation. She remains Donna. And if that's what the Doctor had to do to save her, then difficult as it was--it was the right choice. Here's hoping her naggy, whiny and occasionally vindictive mother doesn't spill the beans sometime when she's mad at Donna for something. So Rose gets a "Doctor" of her very own. How nice. What does Martha--who accomplished much more and who truly loves him--get? Mickey? Gee. More thoughts when I have time to think them. What Martha got was much better than what Rose got. She got over The Doctor. She got a human fiancee and a satisfying, world-saving job that she holds on her own merits.
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Aug 2, 2008 12:05:48 GMT -5
I don't know how badly I feel for Donna. As awful as it is to take away her memories, It's terrible to recall what happens to companions when they lose the Doctor. Losing her memories doesn't negate what she did, it only eliminates her suffering the separation. She remains Donna. And if that's what the Doctor had to do to save her, then difficult as it was--it was the right choice. Here's hoping her naggy, whiny and occasionally vindictive mother doesn't spill the beans sometime when she's mad at Donna for something. So Rose gets a "Doctor" of her very own. How nice. What does Martha--who accomplished much more and who truly loves him--get? Mickey? Gee. More thoughts when I have time to think them. What Martha got was much better than what Rose got. She got over The Doctor. She got a human fiancee and a satisfying, world-saving job that she holds on her own merits. Objectively, yes. But subjectively, no, I don't think so. She HAS gotten a very high-powered job which she certainly earned, but I'm not so sure she finds satisfying. Judging by her exchange with Capt. Jack and her behavior at the end of the episode, I think that job is about to receive an "I Quit" letter. And the human fiance (who we never see) is--and Martha herself admits it--a Doctorreplica.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Aug 2, 2008 17:05:27 GMT -5
If I hit stop when Mickey and Martha walk off, I really like that episode. After that, though... *facepalm* isn't quite enough. Though, earlier, Rose saying she was building a between universes transport? When the Doctor said that would destroy both universes? Why is that treated as cute?!? beccaelizabeth.livejournal.com/1498742.html is my on the day thoughts. Interesting thinky thoughts! 'Cuz I can see the things you point out, but I can also see other angles too. Like, just from a story way of thinking, packing Rose off with the second human Doctor is a good way to, well, dispose of both of them. Dust your writerly hands of them, so to speak. And without killing one or both or whatever. Like, you wrote yourself into a corner, so then you wrote yourself another door in the corner and got back out into the hall anyway. Which I suppose tells you that I was tired of Rose, just like you were. I think I have even less problem with the idea of wiping Donna entirely, because that just makes her an ordinary human. And I don't see anything wrong with that, being all ordinary human myself. I mean, if the story was gonna decide that Donna couldn't stay the DoctorDonna, (and even though that would be really cool, I can see why, purely from a Dr Who writer perspective, they'd find it too hard to have 2 or 3 Doctors ongoing - cool for one ep, but too hard to keep going for entire seasons), then returning her to original state is just not a horrible thing, at least not to me. But I can see why it also is sucky to have lost good memories.But he didn't just take the Doctor Knowledge, he took *every memory* of Donna's experience with the Doctor. The memories she made herself. If the Doctor Knowledge was making Donna's brain melt down, then I can understand why the Doctor unilaterally made the decision to extract it. But the memories? Why was that necessary? The show never gave a compelling reason for that, and since memory is so inextricably intertwined with identity, I find that a very disturbing story choice.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Aug 2, 2008 18:11:36 GMT -5
So… the Doctor didn’t regenerate. Mickey! And Jackie! I’m starting to think that they’re maxing out this cast reunion. Heeee! Indeed they were. By the time we got K-9, that was just the best. ;D Yeah, the semi-sciencey stuff in this ep was, well, not very logical. Even for a Dr Who ep. I fanwanked it (or maybe this is what he meant to imply and just didn't make it clear enough) that since the dimensions were all bleeding together she felt she had to - the walls between things were falling apart anyway and this was perhaps a way to fix that.Yes! Now, see these are the important questions of our generation!! Why?! Why with the clothes!? That was an excellent use of destiny/prophesy, wasn't it? Sounds like one thing, whoopsie! It's Angel's "father will kill the son" and Connor the destroyer all over again. Indeed! And not a well-thought out plan for ego-maniacal villains. Didn't they read the evil overlord manual? You can't overlord very well if you have no underlordlings! Heh! I'd be the filling in that sandwich. Everything go boom? Yup. Dammit! Why aren't you writing the show?!?! **shakes tiny fist** I would totally watch your Dr Who ep. Well, really, does any of it? Oh, intriguing comparison! Well, she does do that supposedly fiercely protective of her daughter while all the time being rather "put her down all the time" to her face. Maybe he was hoping to get her to be more openly supportive?Except also with the biggest family on Earth. No, I wasn't referring to the sci-babble or whatever. I meant that in season 2, it was really stressed about how bad it was for the walls between dimensions to be breaking down, and here Rose tells the Doctor that's what she was doing. And not for the benefit of all mankind or existence or something, but for selfish reasons, to get back to him. He was *pissed* in Father's Day when Rose disrupted the space-time continuum for selfish reasons, but here he just seems amused when she does the same thing.Actually, I think the show kind of lost me on this point, because I have no recollection if the destiny stuff made sense or not.Hmm. Well, I guess so. I don't really recall much of their interaction being anything out of the ordinary, but that's probably just my memory.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Aug 2, 2008 18:35:02 GMT -5
#agree# Well put. Although, Lola (and a good night's sleep) may have swayed me a tiny bit. I still find it to be horribly sad. But probably wouldn't say "I'd rather she died." I just hope that the trajectory of her life changes from this moment in time. Maybe her mother will be more supportive and maybe deep, deep down the experience has changed her somewhat. In some future episode I'd love to see a glimpse of future!Donna and find her fulfilled and contributing to humanity in some way; whether it be career, service, motherhood, art, whatever. In thinking it over, and sleeping on it, I've concluded that it's incredibly sad, but also excellent storytelling. Unlike the Rose/DoctorLight ending, I can't object to it based on plot. It was simply gorgeous, and horrible. This morning, though, something else that sort of bothers me about the whole thing gave itself words: we were given to believe that Donna was something/someone truly amazing and special, for weeks. But the payoff was more that she was a vessel for something amazing - more like the Virgin Mary than Jesus, you know? Not enough was really done to emphasize why it had to be Donna - why her, why was she needed to be the person who merged with the Doctor? I can fanwank the reasons, and I even think they're the right ones, but I would have liked it to be at least a little explicit. As with, "She was better when she was with you!" Someone needed to point out that HE was better when he was with HER, too. Just because it's so easy to lose the symbolism of the regeneration energy crisis thingy: It's a two-way transfer. BOTH benefit from it. As with all good relationships. We get to hear how Rose was good for the Doctor, but we should have got to hear him say how good Donna was for him, too. No little schoolgirl crushes - just a friend who points out when he's not being human enough. Oh, and also? Dave explained it to me...it/he's still in there. We think he didn't wipe her memories so much as block the synapses required to access them. Because any memory of him might give her just enough spark to access what he gave her, and her conscious brain can't handle it. Otherwise, why not just remove the bits of his own consciousness and leave behind her memories?
So I have hope that her unconscious brain will do humanly great things with what he left her.That was my thought too. I got the strong impression that there's going to be a follow up on Donna at some point in the fuutre.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Aug 2, 2008 18:39:44 GMT -5
I don't know how badly I feel for Donna. As awful as it is to take away her memories, It's terrible to recall what happens to companions when they lose the Doctor. Losing her memories doesn't negate what she did, it only eliminates her suffering the separation. She remains Donna. And if that's what the Doctor had to do to save her, then difficult as it was--it was the right choice. Here's hoping her naggy, whiny and occasionally vindictive mother doesn't spill the beans sometime when she's mad at Donna for something. So Rose gets a "Doctor" of her very own. How nice. What does Martha--who accomplished much more and who truly loves him--get?Mickey? Gee. More thoughts when I have time to think them. Actually, it seems to me that Martha ended up with the best lot out of the three of them, and she got there by her own agency rather than due to the Doctor's actions.
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Post by KMInfinity on Aug 3, 2008 11:36:47 GMT -5
Interesting thinky thoughts! 'Cuz I can see the things you point out, but I can also see other angles too. Like, just from a story way of thinking, packing Rose off with the second human Doctor is a good way to, well, dispose of both of them. Dust your writerly hands of them, so to speak. And without killing one or both or whatever. Like, you wrote yourself into a corner, so then you wrote yourself another door in the corner and got back out into the hall anyway. Which I suppose tells you that I was tired of Rose, just like you were. I think I have even less problem with the idea of wiping Donna entirely, because that just makes her an ordinary human. And I don't see anything wrong with that, being all ordinary human myself. I mean, if the story was gonna decide that Donna couldn't stay the DoctorDonna, (and even though that would be really cool, I can see why, purely from a Dr Who writer perspective, they'd find it too hard to have 2 or 3 Doctors ongoing - cool for one ep, but too hard to keep going for entire seasons), then returning her to original state is just not a horrible thing, at least not to me. But I can see why it also is sucky to have lost good memories.But he didn't just take the Doctor Knowledge, he took *every memory* of Donna's experience with the Doctor. The memories she made herself. If the Doctor Knowledge was making Donna's brain melt down, then I can understand why the Doctor unilaterally made the decision to extract it. But the memories? Why was that necessary? The show never gave a compelling reason for that, and since memory is so inextricably intertwined with identity, I find that a very disturbing story choice. I agree with this. And it's especially frustrating since it seems like there should be a way to remove the Doctor mind meld stuff and not Donna's own memories. I need to remember to pay special attention to "memory/identity" issues when I rewatch this season.
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Post by Lola m on Aug 3, 2008 17:03:41 GMT -5
Okay.... 1) I find the ending with Donna to be the saddest thing ever. I'm very dissatisfied with how they disposed of her. I'd rather she died a hero than go back to being the woman who doesn't think she's anything special. I have hope that she will discover her specialness anyway. I am also becoming more accepting of the mind-wipe, when I see it as something that had to be done because otherwise her mind would blow up or something. It really was. And yet, that's fine with me because now the story goes it's own way, to do what it likes. Only we won't see it. That? Was the absolute best. As each one appeared? And we even got K-9? Best! Best! Best! I love stories that can be viewed backwards like that and all the pieces come together. And mad kudos to all of those, like Erin and Sara and so on, who always cleverly put things together faster than me. ;D I can agree with you there. And yet, I know the Doctor will always keep trying to give the villain a chance to be not villainy. It's how he is. There is never enough naked Doctor. And the camera will never pan back far enough either. It is a depressing fact of life. He could have told us. I'd have been fine with that.
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Post by Lola m on Aug 3, 2008 17:06:26 GMT -5
One more thing.... Davros wanting to destroy the universe, I can almost understand. Dude's loopy, has been for ages. Indeed. All I can think of is that they got locked into a group non-think "we are following orders" mode and lost whatever passes for Dalek sense. Oh!! Yes!! That was bloody brilliant!! Them both going "oi!" at each other, and the techno-babble and the matching grins and . . .
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