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Post by Lola m on Aug 3, 2008 17:22:54 GMT -5
Wow there is so much to love about this finale and so much to ponder since there’s so much that’s ambiguous, for me. For me, the saddest thing of all is Donna’s fate – imo, literally a *fate worse than death* as Sue said since an honorable death is one of those tropes that signifies a hero, and Donna is/was indeed a hero. But I have a big problem with the fact that The Doctor made the decision to wipe her memories without her input. Maybe she’d have chosen that fate to escape death. Maybe she’d have rather died. It should have been her choice. I would have preferred choice, too. But I can actually feel better about it than, say, Angel's wiping of Buffy's memories because I see this as needed to keep her brain from going boom/keep her from dying. It's really an interesting point to ponder, isn't it? I mean, my impression is that the Doctor part of DoctorDonna is still somehow inside Donna. At least, somewhat. I mean, why else is the whole thing about no one telling her anything so important? See, that's what got me to looking at her story ending in a different way. And I'm not sure it's the writer's intention - I think they meant us to see it as a tradegy. But, yeah, if she goes back and has an ordinary human life, is that a tradegy? Because, dang, what does that say about me and all the other "ordinary" humans around me? Is life only worthy if it's "special"? That you have to be a superstar adventurer, doing extraordinary things, in order to be happy or fullfilled, or, to be considered "not tragic"? And once I started thinking those kind of thougts, I was all "whoa, maybe this story has a different perspective". The losing of memories is very much a bummer. I mean, it doesn't erase the good things she did, but only the people she helped know what she did, not her. Heee! Like Joss, they made a character grab your heart, didn't they?
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Post by Lola m on Aug 3, 2008 17:25:06 GMT -5
I don't know how badly I feel for Donna. As awful as it is to take away her memories, It's terrible to recall what happens to companions when they lose the Doctor. Losing her memories doesn't negate what she did, it only eliminates her suffering the separation. She remains Donna. And if that's what the Doctor had to do to save her, then difficult as it was--it was the right choice. Here's hoping her naggy, whiny and occasionally vindictive mother doesn't spill the beans sometime when she's mad at Donna for something. Yes, I can definitely see this. Martha gets to really have her own life and new adventures. And I think that's best of all.
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Post by Rachael on Aug 4, 2008 9:29:51 GMT -5
What Martha got was much better than what Rose got. She got over The Doctor. She got a human fiancee and a satisfying, world-saving job that she holds on her own merits. Objectively, yes. But subjectively, no, I don't think so. She HAS gotten a very high-powered job which she certainly earned, but I'm not so sure she finds satisfying. Judging by her exchange with Capt. Jack and her behavior at the end of the episode, I think that job is about to receive an "I Quit" letter. And the human fiance (who we never see) is--and Martha herself admits it--a Doctorreplica. Eh. I'm not so sure Martha's ready to leave UNIT. And if she does, it'll be for Torchwood. They both need her now more than they ever did, and she really seemed to be in her element with them. As for the fiancee...I don't remember her saying he was a Doctor clone, though I do remember some mention of him being an adventurous sort. To me, it doesn't really matter - he's not the Doctor, and he's real and presumably loves her, which the Doctor never did.
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Post by Lola m on Aug 5, 2008 12:04:41 GMT -5
Objectively, yes. But subjectively, no, I don't think so. She HAS gotten a very high-powered job which she certainly earned, but I'm not so sure she finds satisfying. Judging by her exchange with Capt. Jack and her behavior at the end of the episode, I think that job is about to receive an "I Quit" letter. And the human fiance (who we never see) is--and Martha herself admits it--a Doctorreplica. Eh. I'm not so sure Martha's ready to leave UNIT. And if she does, it'll be for Torchwood. They both need her now more than they ever did, and she really seemed to be in her element with them. As for the fiancee...I don't remember her saying he was a Doctor clone, though I do remember some mention of him being an adventurous sort. To me, it doesn't really matter - he's not the Doctor, and he's real and presumably loves her, which the Doctor never did. **nods** And it's a real life, which is hers. Not a "what I'm just wishing for" life.
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Post by Queen E on Aug 8, 2008 11:37:06 GMT -5
Objectively, yes. But subjectively, no, I don't think so. She HAS gotten a very high-powered job which she certainly earned, but I'm not so sure she finds satisfying. Judging by her exchange with Capt. Jack and her behavior at the end of the episode, I think that job is about to receive an "I Quit" letter. And the human fiance (who we never see) is--and Martha herself admits it--a Doctorreplica. Eh. I'm not so sure Martha's ready to leave UNIT. And if she does, it'll be for Torchwood. They both need her now more than they ever did, and she really seemed to be in her element with them. As for the fiancee...I don't remember her saying he was a Doctor clone, though I do remember some mention of him being an adventurous sort. To me, it doesn't really matter - he's not the Doctor, and he's real and presumably loves her, which the Doctor never did. I'm 99% sure her fiance was Tom, the guy who died trying to save her from The Master. Which, as Rose once said: "Which, bloke-wise, is right up there with flossing."
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Post by artemis on Aug 9, 2008 11:57:27 GMT -5
hey s'cubies! i was on vacation when this episode aired in the u.s., so it was up to my trusty dvr to store it for me! (it did! phew!) this episode illustrated so well how much donna's character developed over the course of the season. i was more worried about what would happen to her than i was about the doctor. i'm glad she didn't die, but it seems like what did happen was pretty similar. i felt so bad for her when he didnt listen to her saying she wanted to stay the same regardless of the consequences, and again at the end of the episode. i also feel like donna was the perfect match for this doctor, and i wonder what he'll be like without her... now to read the rest of your comments! p.s. "blink" is airing on the big screen (!!) at a local theatre tonight, but i didn't find out till today, and the seats are already all sold out. d'oh!
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Post by artemis on Aug 9, 2008 12:13:19 GMT -5
yeah, what you said, BE:
i was very unhappy about this too. it seemed like the plot was constructed around never having catherine tate come back ever ever ever instead of her not coming back being a consequence of the plot construction. i hate when plot is constructed around an end goal instead having the story organically lead to an end (yes, i'm looking at you too, bones season finale).
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Post by artemis on Aug 9, 2008 12:18:49 GMT -5
I dislike that The Doctor wiped all of Donna's memories of him and their experiences. I am not happy with that development. Nor am I happy that he is again, the "lonely guy at the top" of the evolutionary food chain. Part of my problem, and the biggest part by far, is the notion that someone else gets to make my life choices for me and making those choices for others runs a risk of empowering the chooser so much he or she becomes a very real danger. as liz pointed out in a post shortly before yours, he did the same thing with rose being appointed 'nursemaid' (as liz put it). sure, rose ended up being happy with the arrangement - but he didn't even *ask* her, just *ordered* her to do it. that is ... worrying. exactly. if anything it seems like she would be more likely to be able to 'withstand' it than half-doctor, since she exhibited more humanity than he did.
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Post by artemis on Aug 9, 2008 12:21:24 GMT -5
Also, the Daleks speaking German? Brilliant! (And scary.) i had forgotten how awesome i thought that touch was. (speaking german near nuremberg, no less.)
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Post by artemis on Aug 9, 2008 12:33:20 GMT -5
See this is the "all tied up in a happy-happy package with a great big birthday bow on it." BUT............. The Doctor goes from being entirely surrounded by his "family" to entirely cut off --- really, really, really, really CUT OFF --- from them. It took me a while to get past the horrible heartache/leaky eyes/ hand over my mouth stage. This is my personal squick (like Anya with bunnies and Julia with submarines) and worst recurring nightmare. Cut off from my family. As I quoted before "all of my everybodies have somebody else." The look on Donna's grandfather's face said it all---exactly what I was feeling: horror, pain, compassion. i understood the look, too, and i agreed with him that she was a better person when she was with the doctor. and didn't want to become - it seemed to me like she was saying she would literally prefer death to going back to it - and yet he did it anyway. yes, exactly. it reminded me of when one of my relatives went senile after having a stroke. the scene was so incredibly sad to me. again, exactly!
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Post by artemis on Aug 9, 2008 13:02:04 GMT -5
I'm 99% sure her fiance was Tom, the guy who died trying to save her from The Master. Which, as Rose once said: "Which, bloke-wise, is right up there with flossing." i have absolutely no memories of her fiance being the guy who died trying to save her from the master. that doesn't mean it's not true! i just don't remember anyone ever saying that.
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Post by artemis on Aug 9, 2008 13:03:56 GMT -5
See, that's what got me to looking at her story ending in a different way. And I'm not sure it's the writer's intention - I think they meant us to see it as a tradegy. But, yeah, if she goes back and has an ordinary human life, is that a tradegy? Because, dang, what does that say about me and all the other "ordinary" humans around me? Is life only worthy if it's "special"? That you have to be a superstar adventurer, doing extraordinary things, in order to be happy or fullfilled, or, to be considered "not tragic"? And once I started thinking those kind of thougts, I was all "whoa, maybe this story has a different perspective". but she also could have gone back to a life like sarah jane's and jack's have ended up - lives where they're living on earth, trying to help humanity, but aware of all that's out there. i don't see why it had to be an either/or with donna, but apparently the writers disagreed with me.
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Post by Lola m on Aug 9, 2008 22:52:19 GMT -5
hey s'cubies! i was on vacation when this episode aired in the u.s., so it was up to my trusty dvr to store it for me! (it did! phew!) this episode illustrated so well how much donna's character developed over the course of the season. i was more worried about what would happen to her than i was about the doctor. i'm glad she didn't die, but it seems like what did happen was pretty similar. i felt so bad for her when he didnt listen to her saying she wanted to stay the same regardless of the consequences, and again at the end of the episode. i also feel like donna was the perfect match for this doctor, and i wonder what he'll be like without her... now to read the rest of your comments! p.s. "blink" is airing on the big screen (!!) at a local theatre tonight, but i didn't find out till today, and the seats are already all sold out. d'oh! Showing "Blink" on the big screen? How cool! Is it just Blink or are they doing a series of Dr Who eps or something? Is this like a festival or something?
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Post by artemis on Aug 10, 2008 18:39:24 GMT -5
p.s. "blink" is airing on the big screen (!!) at a local theatre tonight, but i didn't find out till today, and the seats are already all sold out. d'oh! Showing "Blink" on the big screen? How cool! Is it just Blink or are they doing a series of Dr Who eps or something? Is this like a festival or something? they're doing a mini-series at the local repertory theatre this weekend. this was/is the schedule: Hooked On Who! seriesFriday, August 8: "Genesis Of The Daleks" starring Tom Baker, script by Terry Nation [142 min] Saturday, August 9: "The Long Game" starring Christopher Eccleston and Simon Pegg; "Blink and School Reunion" starring David Tennant [45 min each] Sunday, August 10: "Pirate Planet" starring Tom Baker, script by Douglas Adams [100 min] it's free but you had to RSVP to reserve. they all aired/will air at 10pm.
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Post by Queen E on Aug 14, 2008 2:32:05 GMT -5
See, that's what got me to looking at her story ending in a different way. And I'm not sure it's the writer's intention - I think they meant us to see it as a tradegy. But, yeah, if she goes back and has an ordinary human life, is that a tradegy? Because, dang, what does that say about me and all the other "ordinary" humans around me? Is life only worthy if it's "special"? That you have to be a superstar adventurer, doing extraordinary things, in order to be happy or fullfilled, or, to be considered "not tragic"? And once I started thinking those kind of thougts, I was all "whoa, maybe this story has a different perspective". but she also could have gone back to a life like sarah jane's and jack's have ended up - lives where they're living on earth, trying to help humanity, but aware of all that's out there. i don't see why it had to be an either/or with donna, but apparently the writers disagreed with me. Maybe the point is supposed to be that Donna needed to discover her internal amazing, not just because she was touched by something amazing. If one views it that way, then it's a stronger message, because it says: "I don't need to be touched by the 'divinity' of the doctor to be awesome. I am awesome in my own right." I mean, of the companions we've seen in the new series, Donna, in many ways, is the most proactive and certain of herself...Rose was SO young, and Martha was derailed by her attraction to the Doctor. Whereas Donna was older, had a sense of herself (not without some issues, mind), and didn't think to not question him when she felt he was going off the rails. Meeting him might have "activated" certain parts of her, but to say that everything special (or better) about Donna came from the Doctor is a mistake on her mother and grandfather's part, I think. Just because her memories of him have been removed doesn't mean that her essentials are changed beyond repair. I suppose only time will tell on that one. Hmm. I don't think we've seen the last of Donna Noble.
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