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Post by Sue on Aug 1, 2009 7:14:06 GMT -5
Bill Maher on the "birthers." I'm not a huge fan of Maher, as he can be pretty abrasive at times, and while I might appreciate his humor I'm not sure being just plain mean (and sometimes demeaning) towards others is entirely helpful. 5 minutes long, pretty funny (and yes, abrasive) but if you watch it be sure to go all the way to the end because the final sentence is the best zinger in the whole monologue. www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/31/bill-maher-issues-warning_n_249193.htmlp.s. A few Republicans are attempting to push-back by claiming that the whole birther thing is being pushed by the Dems -- meaning that it would die a natural death (or, at least go underground) if the "liberal media" would stop covering the story. This, however, strikes me as being the specious kind of argument that moderate Christians or Muslims try to use to convince themselves that if we would just ignore the fringe crazies they will not be empowered. No, it's up to the moderate, SANE members of any group (Christian, Muslim, Republican) to step up and "police" their own group so to speak and disavow the fringe craziness. It seems to me that what the media is trying to do is shame the moderate Republicans (and, no, I don't think that this is yet a complete oxymoron) to taking a stand. Like when McCain finally told that lady at the town hall that "no, Mr. Obama was not a Muslim fanatic." So Maher is making the case that you can't just ignore such nonsense because it IS nonsense -- you have to call a crazy person crazy. [And, apparently even some of those who have been shown Obama's "Certificate of Life Birth" are taking issue because it does say "Birth Certificate" --- I think they need to check their own documents. All of my kids' paperwork, issued in TN, is headed "Certificate of Live Birth." The polling stats which show only 47% of Southerners being sure that Obama is native-born (23% don't believe, and 30% are undecided) are why I still tell people that I"m "from" Pennsylvania.] ============ And don't even get me started on this nonsense that the legislation on health insurance will lead to euthanasia of the elderly.
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Post by Rachael on Aug 1, 2009 9:27:58 GMT -5
Bill Maher on the "birthers." I'm not a huge fan of Maher, as he can be pretty abrasive at times, and while I might appreciate his humor I'm not sure being just plain mean (and sometimes demeaning) towards others is entirely helpful. 5 minutes long, pretty funny (and yes, abrasive) but if you watch it be sure to go all the way to the end because the final sentence is the best zinger in the whole monologue. www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/31/bill-maher-issues-warning_n_249193.htmlp.s. A few Republicans are attempting to push-back by claiming that the whole birther thing is being pushed by the Dems -- meaning that it would die a natural death (or, at least go underground) if the "liberal media" would stop covering the story. This, however, strikes me as being the specious kind of argument that moderate Christians or Muslims try to use to convince themselves that if we would just ignore the fringe crazies they will not be empowered. No, it's up to the moderate, SANE members of any group (Christian, Muslim, Republican) to step up and "police" their own group so to speak and disavow the fringe craziness. It seems to me that what the media is trying to do is shame the moderate Republicans (and, no, I don't think that this is yet a complete oxymoron) to taking a stand. Like when McCain finally told that lady at the town hall that "no, Mr. Obama was not a Muslim fanatic." So Maher is making the case that you can't just ignore such nonsense because it IS nonsense -- you have to call a crazy person crazy. [And, apparently even some of those who have been shown Obama's "Certificate of Life Birth" are taking issue because it does say "Birth Certificate" --- I think they need to check their own documents. All of my kids' paperwork, issued in TN, is headed "Certificate of Live Birth." The polling stats which show only 47% of Southerners being sure that Obama is native-born (23% don't believe, and 30% are undecided) are why I still tell people that I"m "from" Pennsylvania.] ============ And don't even get me started on this nonsense that the legislation on health insurance will lead to euthanasia of the elderly. I have a theory, which may be unkind, about a significant proportion of Southerners who think Obama might not be a citizen...I think a lot of them are grabbing on to THAT as a more socially-acceptable excuse for their "any way to disqualify him" hysteria over having a black man in the White House. I simply can't make myself believe so many people are really that gullible, I guess, so I start wondering why they'd SAY it might be true but not really believe it.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Aug 1, 2009 9:55:19 GMT -5
Yeah, that's really scary.
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Post by Sue on Aug 1, 2009 11:02:56 GMT -5
Bill Maher on the "birthers." I'm not a huge fan of Maher, as he can be pretty abrasive at times, and while I might appreciate his humor I'm not sure being just plain mean (and sometimes demeaning) towards others is entirely helpful. 5 minutes long, pretty funny (and yes, abrasive) but if you watch it be sure to go all the way to the end because the final sentence is the best zinger in the whole monologue. www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/31/bill-maher-issues-warning_n_249193.htmlp.s. A few Republicans are attempting to push-back by claiming that the whole birther thing is being pushed by the Dems -- meaning that it would die a natural death (or, at least go underground) if the "liberal media" would stop covering the story. This, however, strikes me as being the specious kind of argument that moderate Christians or Muslims try to use to convince themselves that if we would just ignore the fringe crazies they will not be empowered. No, it's up to the moderate, SANE members of any group (Christian, Muslim, Republican) to step up and "police" their own group so to speak and disavow the fringe craziness. It seems to me that what the media is trying to do is shame the moderate Republicans (and, no, I don't think that this is yet a complete oxymoron) to taking a stand. Like when McCain finally told that lady at the town hall that "no, Mr. Obama was not a Muslim fanatic." So Maher is making the case that you can't just ignore such nonsense because it IS nonsense -- you have to call a crazy person crazy. [And, apparently even some of those who have been shown Obama's "Certificate of Life Birth" are taking issue because it does say "Birth Certificate" --- I think they need to check their own documents. All of my kids' paperwork, issued in TN, is headed "Certificate of Live Birth." The polling stats which show only 47% of Southerners being sure that Obama is native-born (23% don't believe, and 30% are undecided) are why I still tell people that I"m "from" Pennsylvania.] ============ And don't even get me started on this nonsense that the legislation on health insurance will lead to euthanasia of the elderly. I have a theory, which may be unkind, about a significant proportion of Southerners who think Obama might not be a citizen...I think a lot of them are grabbing on to THAT as a more socially-acceptable excuse for their "any way to disqualify him" hysteria over having a black man in the White House. I simply can't make myself believe so many people are really that gullible, I guess, so I start wondering why they'd SAY it might be true but not really believe it. Well, out of a county population of approx. 500,000 here in Davidson county/Nashville, the capital of the state, I just learned that there are 125,000 adults without high school diplomas. State govt. employs 10,000 and Vanderbilt U employs 10,000 (granted some are custodians and cafeteria workers) but for a city known (at least to itself) as "The Athens of the South" what does that tell you? I think it says as much about the levels of critical/logical thinking as anything. These are folks who are easily lead around by the nose by the shouters of talk radio, etc. And, quite honestly, given to espousing the opinions of "daddy" and their small-town communities (this is a generalization but does not, of course, included ALL persons of any subset) without inviting any alternate discourse (or facts). Oddly, I don't know that I agree with it being fear of a black man in the White House. Our city council and state legislature are full of black legislators. But, you may be right about that attitude prevailing among the rural white folks. My sister lives outside of Knoxville in Sevier County (next to Dollywood) and she spent much of the election period responding to people who were emailing her the "Muslim fanatic" stuff. Want to be depressed? Go here: www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_baeo_t1.htmFrom a larger article with a ton more charts, here: www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_baeo.htm
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Post by Sue on Aug 2, 2009 8:26:53 GMT -5
Bill Maher on the "birthers." I'm not a huge fan of Maher, as he can be pretty abrasive at times, and while I might appreciate his humor I'm not sure being just plain mean (and sometimes demeaning) towards others is entirely helpful. 5 minutes long, pretty funny (and yes, abrasive) but if you watch it be sure to go all the way to the end because the final sentence is the best zinger in the whole monologue. www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/31/bill-maher-issues-warning_n_249193.htmlp.s. A few Republicans are attempting to push-back by claiming that the whole birther thing is being pushed by the Dems -- meaning that it would die a natural death (or, at least go underground) if the "liberal media" would stop covering the story. This, however, strikes me as being the specious kind of argument that moderate Christians or Muslims try to use to convince themselves that if we would just ignore the fringe crazies they will not be empowered. No, it's up to the moderate, SANE members of any group (Christian, Muslim, Republican) to step up and "police" their own group so to speak and disavow the fringe craziness. It seems to me that what the media is trying to do is shame the moderate Republicans (and, no, I don't think that this is yet a complete oxymoron) to taking a stand. Like when McCain finally told that lady at the town hall that "no, Mr. Obama was not a Muslim fanatic." So Maher is making the case that you can't just ignore such nonsense because it IS nonsense -- you have to call a crazy person crazy. [And, apparently even some of those who have been shown Obama's "Certificate of Life Birth" are taking issue because it does say "Birth Certificate" --- I think they need to check their own documents. All of my kids' paperwork, issued in TN, is headed "Certificate of Live Birth." The polling stats which show only 47% of Southerners being sure that Obama is native-born (23% don't believe, and 30% are undecided) are why I still tell people that I"m "from" Pennsylvania.] ============ And don't even get me started on this nonsense that the legislation on health insurance will lead to euthanasia of the elderly. I have a theory, which may be unkind, about a significant proportion of Southerners who think Obama might not be a citizen...I think a lot of them are grabbing on to THAT as a more socially-acceptable excuse for their "any way to disqualify him" hysteria over having a black man in the White House. I simply can't make myself believe so many people are really that gullible, I guess, so I start wondering why they'd SAY it might be true but not really believe it. Frank Rich supports your theory, only more generally (not just Southerners): www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/opinion/02rich.html?_r=1
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Post by Rachael on Aug 2, 2009 10:47:50 GMT -5
I have a theory, which may be unkind, about a significant proportion of Southerners who think Obama might not be a citizen...I think a lot of them are grabbing on to THAT as a more socially-acceptable excuse for their "any way to disqualify him" hysteria over having a black man in the White House. I simply can't make myself believe so many people are really that gullible, I guess, so I start wondering why they'd SAY it might be true but not really believe it. Frank Rich supports your theory, only more generally (not just Southerners): www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/opinion/02rich.html?_r=1My theory was only addressing why such a high proportion of Southerners claim to doubt his citizenship...but I'd be more than willing to extend it to the idiots at Fox News and the likes of Rush Limbaugh and the various members of Congress who sponsored that ridiculous bill, sure. I haven't spend much time in the rural South, but my experiences when there with Dave were...odd, and occasionally vaguely unpleasant. And he's not even black - but he WAS sharing a motel room with a white woman. And, at the time, the occasional public, casual use of the word "n*gger" really threw me. And this was the northern south, not the deep south. I don't know enough from personal experience, but my sense is that the rural Deep South is still a different place from much of the rest of the nation. And thank you for the correction to "rural", because I think it actually is an important distinction. This is not to say we don't have racism elsewhere, still - we do, and lots of it. It's just not as...I don't know, acceptable? You can't say it out loud.
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Post by Sue on Aug 2, 2009 16:30:55 GMT -5
My theory was only addressing why such a high proportion of Southerners claim to doubt his citizenship...but I'd be more than willing to extend it to the idiots at Fox News and the likes of Rush Limbaugh and the various members of Congress who sponsored that ridiculous bill, sure. I haven't spend much time in the rural South, but my experiences when there with Dave were...odd, and occasionally vaguely unpleasant. And he's not even black - but he WAS sharing a motel room with a white woman. And, at the time, the occasional public, casual use of the word "n*gger" really threw me. And this was the northern south, not the deep south. I don't know enough from personal experience, but my sense is that the rural Deep South is still a different place from much of the rest of the nation. And thank you for the correction to "rural", because I think it actually is an important distinction. This is not to say we don't have racism elsewhere, still - we do, and lots of it. It's just not as...I don't know, acceptable? You can't say it out loud. I will have to ask sisters Lynn (rural TN) and Terry (rural VA) if they have ever heard that word used. I've lived in Nashville for 30 years and have never heard the N word used, that I can recall. I just checked with Tom and Allie and they concur. Now, I'm not so naive as to believe that nobody in Nashville ever uses the word, so maybe it's just the circles I run in. I'm also not saying that I don't know people who would really rather prefer that their daughter (or son) not bring home a gf or bf of another race. But I"m sort of stunned that you were just here for a visit and heard it used. And I lived 23 years in PA, 3 years in IL and a year in CO and in all that time never saw as many (in total) inter-racial couples as I saw in TN with 3 months of moving here. Oddly, I notice even more mixed-race couples in small towns -- possibly because the dating pool is so limited?--- than in Nashville. Allie says a black girlfriend of hers says she and her white male friend got lots of looks in Atlanta but .................. honestly -- I'm having a hard time believing that. I do believe that a mixed race couple checking into a hotel in a small town around here might get glanced at, especially if they thought you weren't married ---- which is an even greater reason for them to be aghast than the race thing. Also, in rural TN there are next to no Asian people, and plenty of black people that may have been a factor too. And, yes, I've heard that the northern south is worse than the deep south, where poor, educated families of both races have grown up together for generations. I'm guessing they might both have things to say about Hispanic immigrants in their midst. Nashville has huge (relatively speaking) populations of Kurds, Thai, Laotians, Sudanese, Indians and others.
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Post by Rachael on Aug 2, 2009 20:04:39 GMT -5
My theory was only addressing why such a high proportion of Southerners claim to doubt his citizenship...but I'd be more than willing to extend it to the idiots at Fox News and the likes of Rush Limbaugh and the various members of Congress who sponsored that ridiculous bill, sure. I haven't spend much time in the rural South, but my experiences when there with Dave were...odd, and occasionally vaguely unpleasant. And he's not even black - but he WAS sharing a motel room with a white woman. And, at the time, the occasional public, casual use of the word "n*gger" really threw me. And this was the northern south, not the deep south. I don't know enough from personal experience, but my sense is that the rural Deep South is still a different place from much of the rest of the nation. And thank you for the correction to "rural", because I think it actually is an important distinction. This is not to say we don't have racism elsewhere, still - we do, and lots of it. It's just not as...I don't know, acceptable? You can't say it out loud. I will have to ask sisters Lynn (rural TN) and Terry (rural VA) if they have ever heard that word used. I've lived in Nashville for 30 years and have never heard the N word used, that I can recall. I just checked with Tom and Allie and they concur. Now, I'm not so naive as to believe that nobody in Nashville ever uses the word, so maybe it's just the circles I run in. I'm also not saying that I don't know people who would really rather prefer that their daughter (or son) not bring home a gf or bf of another race. But I"m sort of stunned that you were just here for a visit and heard it used. And I lived 23 years in PA, 3 years in IL and a year in CO and in all that time never saw as many (in total) inter-racial couples as I saw in TN with 3 months of moving here. Oddly, I notice even more mixed-race couples in small towns -- possibly because the dating pool is so limited?--- than in Nashville. Allie says a black girlfriend of hers says she and her white male friend got lots of looks in Atlanta but .................. honestly -- I'm having a hard time believing that. I do believe that a mixed race couple checking into a hotel in a small town around here might get glanced at, especially if they thought you weren't married ---- which is an even greater reason for them to be aghast than the race thing. Also, in rural TN there are next to no Asian people, and plenty of black people that may have been a factor too. And, yes, I've heard that the northern south is worse than the deep south, where poor, educated families of both races have grown up together for generations. I'm guessing they might both have things to say about Hispanic immigrants in their midst. Nashville has huge (relatively speaking) populations of Kurds, Thai, Laotians, Sudanese, Indians and others. I wasn't in a big city; I was at a wedding on a farm out in the middle of nowhere. And it wasn't at the wedding...just in the small town (whose name I can't remember) at, weirdly, the grocery store. Eh. My own grandfather used to say it, maybe 20 years back. I remember chastising him about it when I was in high school.
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Post by Rachael on Aug 5, 2009 18:27:33 GMT -5
This is priceless. Your very own Kenyan Birth Certificate!
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Aug 9, 2009 12:32:08 GMT -5
Can anyone point me to a transcript of Bush's post-911 "just go shopping" speech? I've heard it referenced to so many times now that I'd like to see for myself exactly what he said. I seemed to have completely missed it the first time 'round.
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Post by Sue on Aug 9, 2009 14:09:30 GMT -5
Can anyone point me to a transcript of Bush's post-911 "just go shopping" speech? I've heard it referenced to so many times now that I'd like to see for myself exactly what he said. I seemed to have completely missed it the first time 'round. Liz, I found this: answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=377757which suggests that the media paraphrased him. Unfortunately none of the links to "official transcripts" work because whitehouse.gov links now go to the current admin.
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Post by Sue on Aug 10, 2009 7:10:51 GMT -5
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Aug 11, 2009 6:01:56 GMT -5
Can anyone point me to a transcript of Bush's post-911 "just go shopping" speech? I've heard it referenced to so many times now that I'd like to see for myself exactly what he said. I seemed to have completely missed it the first time 'round. Liz, I found this: answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=377757which suggests that the media paraphrased him. Unfortunately none of the links to "official transcripts" work because whitehouse.gov links now go to the current admin. Thanks, Sue.
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Post by Sue on Aug 13, 2009 7:44:20 GMT -5
And, from Gail Collins' NYT editorial today: Thanks to the health care protests over the past week, the nation seems to have come to a fragile consensus on a few critical issues. For instance, government-run death panels — not good. And, Nazis — nobody likes them. Interestingly, we do not have any agreement at all on the question of whether it is a good plan to bring a gun to a gathering of angry and overwrought people. To be honest, I thought we might be able to nail this one down. www.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/opinion/13collins.html?_r=1&hp
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Aug 13, 2009 9:27:13 GMT -5
And, from Gail Collins' NYT editorial today: Thanks to the health care protests over the past week, the nation seems to have come to a fragile consensus on a few critical issues. For instance, government-run death panels — not good. And, Nazis — nobody likes them. Interestingly, we do not have any agreement at all on the question of whether it is a good plan to bring a gun to a gathering of angry and overwrought people. To be honest, I thought we might be able to nail this one down. www.nytimes.com/2009/08/13/opinion/13collins.html?_r=1&hp There's a community meeting on health care today that I'm going to at least part of. It will be very interesting to see what the mood is like.
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