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Post by Techno-bot on Jun 14, 2004 22:34:12 GMT -5
Written by David Fury & Drew Goddard Directed by David Fury Air date: 2/25/03
Giles spearheads an effort to deal with Spike's brainwashing with help from Principal Wood.
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 28, 2004 21:09:03 GMT -5
Okay, here's another thing I've pondering for awhile. What all is this supposed to explain? Obviously it caused Spike a lot of grief. Is this why he lets women run roughshod over him? His own tangle of love, sex and pain/death to rival Buffy's? The main thing I get from this episode is a rejection of or reaction to the idea of the Oedipus Complex. It is possible for a man to love his mother w/o wanting to f*ck her.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 29, 2004 6:06:00 GMT -5
Okay, here's another thing I've pondering for awhile. What all is this supposed to explain? Obviously it caused Spike a lot of grief. Is this why he lets women run roughshod over him? His own tangle of love, sex and pain/death to rival Buffy's? The main thing I get from this episode is a rejection of or reaction to the idea of the Oedipus Complex. It is possible for a man to love his mother w/o wanting to f*ck her. Yeeee. This is a messy ep, and I haven't seen it for awhile. So use liberal grains of salt here, but the feeling I got was this, when it comes to the "William's mother comes on to him" scene: The incident is powerfully painful and confusing, and affects him profoundly. He has vamped his mother expecting she will want to be by his side for all eternity. But he finds that she wants absolutely nothing to do with him - except to use him sexually. He is betrayed in the grossest way possible, and he is never the same again. A vampire himself, he has no way of understanding what has just happened beyond seeing it as a horrible and hurtful betrayal. It only happens once, but it is traumatic. And soulless, he is unable to grow past it. We see its effects in his relationships with women from there on out. He does the classic stuff in seeking out further abuse and replaying the betrayal. Dru will betray him with Angel, again and again, but he stays with her and wants her back even when it is so obvious he is choice #2. With Harmony, in a different way, we see Spike exhibit another classic symptom of the sexually abused child: the ability to sexually abuse in return, the lesson learned. With Buffy, he again sets himself up for a replay - shades of both abusing and being abused. And where in the world do you think Spike got the idea that forcing himself on Buffy might be a way to force her to admit her feelings for him? He doesn't sound so different from mummy, does he, when he's going at Buffy in the Summers' bathroom? Of course, Buffy has her own history and issues. So that is one messy, ugly, human story. But our heroes - Buffy & Spike - rise above it all, in the end.
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Post by LadyDi on Aug 17, 2004 18:14:08 GMT -5
Yeeee. This is a messy ep, and I haven't seen it for awhile. So use liberal grains of salt here, but the feeling I got was this, when it comes to the "William's mother comes on to him" scene: The incident is powerfully painful and confusing, and affects him profoundly. He has vamped his mother expecting she will want to be by his side for all eternity. But he finds that she wants absolutely nothing to do with him - except to use him sexually. He is betrayed in the grossest way possible, and he is never the same again. A vampire himself, he has no way of understanding what has just happened beyond seeing it as a horrible and hurtful betrayal. It only happens once, but it is traumatic. And soulless, he is unable to grow past it. We see its effects in his relationships with women from there on out. He does the classic stuff in seeking out further abuse and replaying the betrayal. Dru will betray him with Angel, again and again, but he stays with her and wants her back even when it is so obvious he is choice #2. With Harmony, in a different way, we see Spike exhibit another classic symptom of the sexually abused child: the ability to sexually abuse in return, the lesson learned. With Buffy, he again sets himself up for a replay - shades of both abusing and being abused. And where in the world do you think Spike got the idea that forcing himself on Buffy might be a way to force her to admit her feelings for him? He doesn't sound so different from mummy, does he, when he's going at Buffy in the Summers' bathroom?
Of course, Buffy has her own history and issues. So that is one messy, ugly, human story. But our heroes - Buffy & Spike - rise above it all, in the end. IMO, the AR is more akin to her assualt on him in Dead Things. She's out of control in one and he in the other. "...you can't feel anything..." "...gonna make you feel it..." I think Spike became the conduit for Joss' stated disguist at the Luke & Laura situation thru the AR. In Entropy he says he wouldn't do what Xander did, even tho' he was (to some) an Evil Soulless Thing. But then he did, and went to great lengths to keep it from happening again. This is partly why I wondered about that one scene in Chosen.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 4, 2005 0:32:31 GMT -5
Here it is . . . number 10 in the 2005 Buffy (and Angel) Episode Festival! I will always look after you, mother. This, I promise. Drusilla: You...you want to bring your mum wif us? William: Well, yeah. You'll like her. Drusilla: To eat, you mean? I've killed a lot of people's mothers. On your marks, get set, discuss!
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 4, 2005 9:39:09 GMT -5
Here it is . . . number 10 in the 2005 Buffy (and Angel) Episode Festival! I will always look after you, mother. This, I promise. Drusilla: You...you want to bring your mum wif us? William: Well, yeah. You'll like her. Drusilla: To eat, you mean? I've killed a lot of people's mothers. On your marks, get set, discuss! It's all about cutting the umbilical cord:- Spike finally cuts the umbilical cord to mummy, by facing the truth of what happened with him mother.
- Not coincidentally, Buffy cuts the child/parent cord with Giles at the same time.
- More than that, by deciding to let Wood live, all on his own and without Buffy's assistance or caring what Buffy thinks about it, Spike also cuts the symbolic "umbilical cord" he's had tying him to Buffy - who has been, underneath it all, an authority/mother figure to him.
- Also not coincidentally, this ep features Wood beginning to make a needed break from his memory of his mother - it's the beginning of Wood letting go and moving forward, at long last, from his mother's murder and legacy.
It's about leaving behind the "lies your parents told you," - facing the fact that there is no Santa Claus, and becoming an adult who makes the tough choices and faces the gray and difficult and far from ideal realities of the world. Spike makes his own decision not to kill Wood; no one has to pull him off or tell him not to do it. And from here on in, it will be the same way for Buffy - she'll be "killing (or not) Ben" herself, from here on in.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 4, 2005 11:01:22 GMT -5
Also, I was just thinkig of how we have a great opportunity to compare reactions of newly risen vamps here.
I mean, we have Spike, all vampy and ready to turn the town red, but wanting to take care of mummy and take her along. We have mummy, free from the restrictions her society has placed on her and ready to rip and tear, including rip and tear her son's emotions to bits (and just how much of her speech is true and how much is pure inspired pushing of his buttons is another question). We have Richard, the "back to basics" fledge that Giles uses to distract Buffy - just another anonymous vamp to be dusted without wondering what else he might be. And, in Reprise, our AtS ep, we have newly risen Darla, back for the second time after being human and souled again - confused and angry, but about what?
Lots more complexity to this vamping thing than we saw at first.
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Post by Onjel on Jul 4, 2005 11:03:55 GMT -5
Okay, here's another thing I've pondering for awhile. What all is this supposed to explain? Obviously it caused Spike a lot of grief. Is this why he lets women run roughshod over him? His own tangle of love, sex and pain/death to rival Buffy's? The main thing I get from this episode is a rejection of or reaction to the idea of the Oedipus Complex. It is possible for a man to love his mother w/o wanting to f*ck her. Yeeee. This is a messy ep, and I haven't seen it for awhile. So use liberal grains of salt here, but the feeling I got was this, when it comes to the "William's mother comes on to him" scene: The incident is powerfully painful and confusing, and affects him profoundly. He has vamped his mother expecting she will want to be by his side for all eternity. But he finds that she wants absolutely nothing to do with him - except to use him sexually. He is betrayed in the grossest way possible, and he is never the same again. A vampire himself, he has no way of understanding what has just happened beyond seeing it as a horrible and hurtful betrayal. It only happens once, but it is traumatic. And soulless, he is unable to grow past it. We see its effects in his relationships with women from there on out. He does the classic stuff in seeking out further abuse and replaying the betrayal. Dru will betray him with Angel, again and again, but he stays with her and wants her back even when it is so obvious he is choice #2. With Harmony, in a different way, we see Spike exhibit another classic symptom of the sexually abused child: the ability to sexually abuse in return, the lesson learned. With Buffy, he again sets himself up for a replay - shades of both abusing and being abused. And where in the world do you think Spike got the idea that forcing himself on Buffy might be a way to force her to admit her feelings for him? He doesn't sound so different from mummy, does he, when he's going at Buffy in the Summers' bathroom? Of course, Buffy has her own history and issues. So that is one messy, ugly, human story. But our heroes - Buffy & Spike - rise above it all, in the end. Ok, here's what I don't get. Spike has already been turned by Dru, and therefore, has "lost" his soul. He then turns his mother, in an effort to make her "healthy" and keep her by his side forever. When she comes on to him, as it were, why would he "feel hurt and betrayed". If, as everyone claims, vampires have no moral center, wouldn't his demon be expected to go along with the mother's seduction (bad word, but all I could think of today), and be true to form by having sex with anything and/or anyone? With no soul and no inner moral compass, the demon should not have been hurt, betrayed and damaged by the actions of William's mother. I think that William's feelings of guilt over turning his lovely mother into an "evil soulless thing" are what were triggering Spike's rampages on behalf of TFE and it was William's hatred and disgust with the demon that allowed him to be manipulated. William always had a measure of self-loathing. Add guilt to it and the loathing becomes more powerful and allowed him to be manipulated. Now, his finally seeing the act of turning his mother for what it was, the actions of his own demon and not William helped him to get past the trigger. When one remains a child or in a child-like state of putting one's parents on a pedestal, one is susceptible to manipulation by anyone who appears in loco parentis. I agree with Spring that this episode is about breaking free from the ties of childhood and becoming one's own person, able to view authority figures with more objectivity and to realize that they might, actually, be wrong on occasion. About Wood, I haven't thought too much about him, but his entire life was focused on finding the vamp who killed his mother. He kept the idealized version of his mother and her love at the forefront of that quest and what Spike said actually may have hit home. Wood's mother loved him, but she put the mission first and he was second. He needed to see that his mother was not the paragon of parenting he remembered her being. As with any parent who puts their employment first, the children see only the "good bits" because they don't have enough interaction with the the parent to see the authoritarian bits and tend to idealize the parent who is around the least. Besides, I think his mother was not all that great, putting her only child in harms way all the time. He should not have been with her on the hunt, under any circumstance. But, that's just my opinion.
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Post by Onjel on Jul 4, 2005 11:07:09 GMT -5
Also, I was just thinkig of how we have a great opportunity to compare reactions of newly risen vamps here. I mean, we have Spike, all vampy and ready to turn the town red, but wanting to take care of mummy and take her along. We have mummy, free from the restrictions her society has placed on her and ready to rip and tear, including rip and tear her son's emotions to bits (and just how much of her speech is true and how much is pure inspired pushing of his buttons is another question). We have Richard, the "back to basics" fledge that Giles uses to distract Buffy - just another anonymous vamp to be dusted without wondering what else he might be. And, in Reprise, our AtS ep, we have newly risen Darla, back for the second time after being human and souled again - confused and angry, but about what? Lots more complexity to this vamping thing than we saw at first. Right. There is more of William in newly turned "Spike to be" than otherwise would have been thought. Perhaps it depends on the demon aspect passed on, but even with Holden, we saw some of the college psych major than perhaps we should have. I wonder if perhaps the soul is lost incrementally. The more a vamp kills to eat the more of his human soul is lost to the ether. Any thoughts?
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Post by Squeemonster on Jul 4, 2005 12:28:03 GMT -5
Also, I was just thinkig of how we have a great opportunity to compare reactions of newly risen vamps here. I mean, we have Spike, all vampy and ready to turn the town red, but wanting to take care of mummy and take her along. We have mummy, free from the restrictions her society has placed on her and ready to rip and tear, including rip and tear her son's emotions to bits (and just how much of her speech is true and how much is pure inspired pushing of his buttons is another question). We have Richard, the "back to basics" fledge that Giles uses to distract Buffy - just another anonymous vamp to be dusted without wondering what else he might be. And, in Reprise, our AtS ep, we have newly risen Darla, back for the second time after being human and souled again - confused and angry, but about what? Lots more complexity to this vamping thing than we saw at first. Right. There is more of William in newly turned "Spike to be" than otherwise would have been thought. Perhaps it depends on the demon aspect passed on, but even with Holden, we saw some of the college psych major than perhaps we should have. I wonder if perhaps the soul is lost incrementally. The more a vamp kills to eat the more of his human soul is lost to the ether. Any thoughts? I know it's been discussed before, but I tend to think it's more about the vampire bloodline (order of Aurelius). I believe that when someone first becomes a vampire, they start out almost as a blank slate, with no traces of soul or moral compass, but the more kills they make, the more evil they become--not just because they're killing more and more people, but because that state of mind is becoming ingrained in them, to the point where they no longer remember what it was like to have morals or a soul. And they don't understand (or even think about) why killing is evil, they just know that it's fun, and that they need blood to survive. But I think there is something special about the Aurelian bloodline. There is something about it which, I believe, allows for the possibility of some of the aspects of the human soul to remain after turning. Maybe what is needed to make this possibility come to fruition is some sort of catalyst, such as Dru's psychic abilities. That could explain why William wasn't the normal newly-risen vamp. Or maybe it was a combination of human William's compassion and Dru's psychic abilities that made it possible for vamp William to retain some of his human soul's aspects.
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Post by Squeemonster on Jul 4, 2005 12:43:38 GMT -5
Yeeee. This is a messy ep, and I haven't seen it for awhile. So use liberal grains of salt here, but the feeling I got was this, when it comes to the "William's mother comes on to him" scene: The incident is powerfully painful and confusing, and affects him profoundly. He has vamped his mother expecting she will want to be by his side for all eternity. But he finds that she wants absolutely nothing to do with him - except to use him sexually. He is betrayed in the grossest way possible, and he is never the same again. A vampire himself, he has no way of understanding what has just happened beyond seeing it as a horrible and hurtful betrayal. It only happens once, but it is traumatic. And soulless, he is unable to grow past it. We see its effects in his relationships with women from there on out. He does the classic stuff in seeking out further abuse and replaying the betrayal. Dru will betray him with Angel, again and again, but he stays with her and wants her back even when it is so obvious he is choice #2. With Harmony, in a different way, we see Spike exhibit another classic symptom of the sexually abused child: the ability to sexually abuse in return, the lesson learned. With Buffy, he again sets himself up for a replay - shades of both abusing and being abused. And where in the world do you think Spike got the idea that forcing himself on Buffy might be a way to force her to admit her feelings for him? He doesn't sound so different from mummy, does he, when he's going at Buffy in the Summers' bathroom? Of course, Buffy has her own history and issues. So that is one messy, ugly, human story. But our heroes - Buffy & Spike - rise above it all, in the end. Ok, here's what I don't get. Spike has already been turned by Dru, and therefore, has "lost" his soul. He then turns his mother, in an effort to make her "healthy" and keep her by his side forever. When she comes on to him, as it were, why would he "feel hurt and betrayed". If, as everyone claims, vampires have no moral center, wouldn't his demon be expected to go along with the mother's seduction (bad word, but all I could think of today), and be true to form by having sex with anything and/or anyone? With no soul and no inner moral compass, the demon should not have been hurt, betrayed and damaged by the actions of William's mother. I think it's because vamp William retained some aspects of his human self when turned, but I don't believe this is the norm for all newly-risen vamps. I agree with all of this. It's been a while since I've watched this (I need to rewatch it since we're discussing it this week , but it was my assumption that she wasn't patrolling with her son that night. I thought Spike just happened to find her when she was out with Robin, and that it was just bad timing. I'm probably wrong, though. ;D
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 4, 2005 19:20:57 GMT -5
Yeeee. This is a messy ep, and I haven't seen it for awhile. So use liberal grains of salt here, but the feeling I got was this, when it comes to the "William's mother comes on to him" scene: The incident is powerfully painful and confusing, and affects him profoundly. He has vamped his mother expecting she will want to be by his side for all eternity. But he finds that she wants absolutely nothing to do with him - except to use him sexually. He is betrayed in the grossest way possible, and he is never the same again. A vampire himself, he has no way of understanding what has just happened beyond seeing it as a horrible and hurtful betrayal. It only happens once, but it is traumatic. And soulless, he is unable to grow past it. We see its effects in his relationships with women from there on out. He does the classic stuff in seeking out further abuse and replaying the betrayal. Dru will betray him with Angel, again and again, but he stays with her and wants her back even when it is so obvious he is choice #2. With Harmony, in a different way, we see Spike exhibit another classic symptom of the sexually abused child: the ability to sexually abuse in return, the lesson learned. With Buffy, he again sets himself up for a replay - shades of both abusing and being abused. And where in the world do you think Spike got the idea that forcing himself on Buffy might be a way to force her to admit her feelings for him? He doesn't sound so different from mummy, does he, when he's going at Buffy in the Summers' bathroom? Of course, Buffy has her own history and issues. So that is one messy, ugly, human story. But our heroes - Buffy & Spike - rise above it all, in the end. Ok, here's what I don't get. Spike has already been turned by Dru, and therefore, has "lost" his soul. He then turns his mother, in an effort to make her "healthy" and keep her by his side forever. When she comes on to him, as it were, why would he "feel hurt and betrayed". If, as everyone claims, vampires have no moral center, wouldn't his demon be expected to go along with the mother's seduction (bad word, but all I could think of today), and be true to form by having sex with anything and/or anyone? With no soul and no inner moral compass, the demon should not have been hurt, betrayed and damaged by the actions of William's mother. Not having a moral center - I don't think this would someone from feeling personally hurt and betrayed. For example, I can imagine a horrific serial killer, or even Adolf Hitler, being capable of feeling personally hurt or betrayed. People like that don't feel for others (or very many others) but they definitely can feel for themselves. Exactly so. I agree he shouldn't have been with her on the hunt, but we get the idea she is a single mom - and their were times I took a child where he really shouldn't be, because I had to. If there is truly no one to watch him - and you've really got to be somewhere, whatchya gonna do?
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 4, 2005 19:25:11 GMT -5
Right. There is more of William in newly turned "Spike to be" than otherwise would have been thought. Perhaps it depends on the demon aspect passed on, but even with Holden, we saw some of the college psych major than perhaps we should have. I wonder if perhaps the soul is lost incrementally. The more a vamp kills to eat the more of his human soul is lost to the ether. Any thoughts? I know it's been discussed before, but I tend to think it's more about the vampire bloodline (order of Aurelius). I believe that when someone first becomes a vampire, they start out almost as a blank slate, with no traces of soul or moral compass, but the more kills they make, the more evil they become--not just because they're killing more and more people, but because that state of mind is becoming ingrained in them, to the point where they no longer remember what it was like to have morals or a soul. And they don't understand (or even think about) why killing is evil, they just know that it's fun, and that they need blood to survive. Must disagree with the Order of Aurelius theory. To me, it's pure fan fic that vamp "blood line" makes any difference. In canon, as far as I can determine, there isn't even anything suggesting that the "Order of Aurelius" has to do with "bloodline" rather than just a group of "unrelated" individuals who have gotten together (like an the Order of St Francis, or Jesuit Order, for monks). In fact, the word "Order" doesn't suggest "relatives" at all to me. It's not "the line of Aurelius" its "The Order of Aurelius." Harmony retained a lot of her humanity, also.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 4, 2005 19:27:16 GMT -5
Also, I was just thinkig of how we have a great opportunity to compare reactions of newly risen vamps here. I mean, we have Spike, all vampy and ready to turn the town red, but wanting to take care of mummy and take her along. We have mummy, free from the restrictions her society has placed on her and ready to rip and tear, including rip and tear her son's emotions to bits (and just how much of her speech is true and how much is pure inspired pushing of his buttons is another question). We have Richard, the "back to basics" fledge that Giles uses to distract Buffy - just another anonymous vamp to be dusted without wondering what else he might be. And, in Reprise, our AtS ep, we have newly risen Darla, back for the second time after being human and souled again - confused and angry, but about what? Lots more complexity to this vamping thing than we saw at first. Right. There is more of William in newly turned "Spike to be" than otherwise would have been thought. Perhaps it depends on the demon aspect passed on, but even with Holden, we saw some of the college psych major than perhaps we should have. I wonder if perhaps the soul is lost incrementally. The more a vamp kills to eat the more of his human soul is lost to the ether. Any thoughts? It always seemed to me that the memories and basic aspects of personality are from the human, and that these would remain, even if the soul was completely gone. We do know they keep their memories - I would assume also their interests, any education they might have had . . . why not? You don't need a moral compass for any of that.
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Onjel passing through
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Post by Onjel passing through on Jul 4, 2005 19:55:17 GMT -5
Not having a moral center - I don't think this would someone from feeling personally hurt and betrayed. For example, I can imagine a horrific serial killer, or even Adolf Hitler, being capable of feeling personally hurt or betrayed. People like that don't feel for others (or very many others) but they definitely can feel for themselves. True, he could still feel hurt and betrayed, by why didn't his demon indulge in some amoral fun with mom? His reaction of horror is what appears anomalous to me. I would agree with you in the ordinary sense, but we know she had a watcher, who might have looked after young Robin while mom was out working. After all Giles didn't go with Buffy every time she patrolled and my sense is that Nicky Woods' watcher didn't either.
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