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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 5, 2005 18:33:01 GMT -5
Well - that's a close call. A kid that little, alone in a locked apartment for hours - there is no telling what he will do. There are many dangers there, too. You can't know that he won't open the door to a stranger, or even invite a vampire in, no matter how many times you tell him not too. No - I think I'd have brought him with me . . . maybe. It's not an easy call. The things kids can get into when they are alone - their intense vulnerability when they are alone . . . I just don't see it as an obvious call, especially if I am an experienced, confident Slayer . . . well - decisons like that are very hard. Nikki said something about "don't go home go to Crowley's house," which makes me think that Spike had accidentally gotten an invite to their place. And Crowley wasn't taking care of Robin while Nikki was patrolling because...? We're never given any explanation, so any number of things are possible. Agree. We just don't have enough to pass judgment on her mothering abilities, just because she happens to have the little guy with her that night. I do think that Wood's mother loved him, but Spike hits the nail on the head (or rather finds the exact right knife to twist in Wood's gut) when he suggests otherwise. Wood has this idealized, child's version of mom still in his head, and he's avoided thinking about his doubts and fears. The "lies your parents tell you," aren't just about the way they might actively lie to you to make the world and themselves and others seem better than it is, but also about a child's tendency to idealize and hero-worship, regardless.
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Post by Onjel on Jul 5, 2005 18:50:23 GMT -5
Wood has this idealized, child's version of mom still in his head, and he's avoided thinking about his doubts and fears. The "lies your parents tell you," aren't just about the way they might actively lie to you to make the world and themselves and others seem better than it is, but also about a child's tendency to idealize and hero-worship, regardless. Completely agree with your assessment, here, Spring! ;D
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Post by Dragon on Jul 5, 2005 20:01:58 GMT -5
I know it's been discussed before, but I tend to think it's more about the vampire bloodline (order of Aurelius). I believe that when someone first becomes a vampire, they start out almost as a blank slate, with no traces of soul or moral compass, but the more kills they make, the more evil they become--not just because they're killing more and more people, but because that state of mind is becoming ingrained in them, to the point where they no longer remember what it was like to have morals or a soul. And they don't understand (or even think about) why killing is evil, they just know that it's fun, and that they need blood to survive. But I think there is something special about the Aurelian bloodline. There is something about it which, I believe, allows for the possibility of some of the aspects of the human soul to remain after turning. Maybe what is needed to make this possibility come to fruition is some sort of catalyst, such as Dru's psychic abilities. That could explain why William wasn't the normal newly-risen vamp. Or maybe it was a combination of human William's compassion and Dru's psychic abilities that made it possible for vamp William to retain some of his human soul's aspects. Hmm. But, as far as we know, Harmony wasn't of the Aurelian bloodline, and she was exactly the same person after she was turned as she was before. With a little more murderousness. I've never liked the Aurelian bloodline explanation, partly because, in my opinion, every vampire we've ever had prolonged exposure to (and witnessed their human lives, as well) turned out to be very similar, at least at first, to the person they were in life. With the possible exception of Spike's mum. The fact that almost all the vampires we've seen extensively have been Aurelian doesn't help to lend evidence for or against the hypothesis, unfortunately - we need more vamps who weren't to compare with. Perhaps she knew more about vampires than he did. He was an innocent. It could be that she did not want to be a vampire, it was horrific to her, yet she knew her son did it out of love for her as his only parent, and he loved her greatly. If she was intelligent, and I think the rising vampire also has the intelligence he or she died with, she goaded him into dusting her. The intelligence note is from watching Buffy take on so many vampires. They know what they are if they can get out of the ground long enough to think at all. Many of the ones we see weren't very smart to begin with so it is doubtful they will be more so after being turned. Digging your way out of the ground isn't the best way to start out. William didn't bury his mum. When she came around she could have known exactly where she was and what would happen if she stayed a vampire. Spike's mind had focused on those last horrifying moments with his mother, and after having to stake her, they had defined his life as a vampire. He was forever running away from that traumatic event. The reality of that scene with Wood was that Spike finally allowed himself to look beyond those last moments with his mother and realize that for all those years before he turned her, she had loved him, as her son, with all of her heart. Then he was able to break the conditioning the "first" had used to keep him under control. That moment no longer defined him. Dragon
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Post by Onjel on Jul 5, 2005 20:08:36 GMT -5
Hmm. But, as far as we know, Harmony wasn't of the Aurelian bloodline, and she was exactly the same person after she was turned as she was before. With a little more murderousness. I've never liked the Aurelian bloodline explanation, partly because, in my opinion, every vampire we've ever had prolonged exposure to (and witnessed their human lives, as well) turned out to be very similar, at least at first, to the person they were in life. With the possible exception of Spike's mum. The fact that almost all the vampires we've seen extensively have been Aurelian doesn't help to lend evidence for or against the hypothesis, unfortunately - we need more vamps who weren't to compare with. Perhaps she knew more about vampires than he did. He was an innocent. It could be that she did not want to be a vampire, it was horrific to her, yet she knew her son did it out of love for her as his only parent, and he loved her greatly. If she was intelligent, and I think the rising vampire also has the intelligence he or she died with, she goaded him into dusting her. The intelligence note is from watching Buffy take on so many vampires. They know what they are if they can get out of the ground long enough to think at all. Many of the ones we see weren't very smart to begin with so it is doubtful they will be more so after being turned. Digging your way out of the ground isn't the best way to start out. William didn't bury his mum. When she came around she could have known exactly where she was and what would happen if she stayed a vampire. Spike's mind had focused on those last horrifying moments with his mother, and after having to stake her, they had defined his life as a vampire. He was forever running away from that traumatic event. The reality of that scene with Wood was that Spike finally allowed himself to look beyond those last moments with his mother and realize that for all those years before he turned her, she had loved him, as her son, with all of her heart. Then he was able to break the conditioning the "first" had used to keep him under control. That moment no longer defined him. Dragon Oooh, I like this Dragon! I want to ponder it some more. ;D
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Post by Lola m on Jul 5, 2005 20:17:54 GMT -5
For no other reason than to admire the pretty. I copied these screen caps, even tho' I could find no reason to use them for the opening announcement, because they didn't really "sum up" the ep. But dang, they're lovely! Those soulful eyes! That bitable neck . . . Mmmmmmm.
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Post by Onjel on Jul 5, 2005 20:25:57 GMT -5
For no other reason than to admire the pretty. I copied these screen caps, even tho' I could find no reason to use them for the opening announcement, because they didn't really "sum up" the ep. But dang, they're lovely! Those soulful eyes! That bitable neck . . . Mmmmmmm. Yes, they are. I'll be in my bunk!
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Post by Pixi on Jul 6, 2005 6:29:36 GMT -5
Admiring the pretty also. Did anyone see that Billy Idol is doing a new CD - after 12 years. I saw a promo for this while watching the TV guide channel last night and all I could do was think of Spike.
I do that whenver I see The Wedding Singer too.
And then I remember Spike saying Billy copied him. Hee, hee.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 6, 2005 7:21:53 GMT -5
I know it's been discussed before, but I tend to think it's more about the vampire bloodline (order of Aurelius). I believe that when someone first becomes a vampire, they start out almost as a blank slate, with no traces of soul or moral compass, but the more kills they make, the more evil they become--not just because they're killing more and more people, but because that state of mind is becoming ingrained in them, to the point where they no longer remember what it was like to have morals or a soul. And they don't understand (or even think about) why killing is evil, they just know that it's fun, and that they need blood to survive. But I think there is something special about the Aurelian bloodline. There is something about it which, I believe, allows for the possibility of some of the aspects of the human soul to remain after turning. Maybe what is needed to make this possibility come to fruition is some sort of catalyst, such as Dru's psychic abilities. That could explain why William wasn't the normal newly-risen vamp. Or maybe it was a combination of human William's compassion and Dru's psychic abilities that made it possible for vamp William to retain some of his human soul's aspects. Hmm. But, as far as we know, Harmony wasn't of the Aurelian bloodline, and she was exactly the same person after she was turned as she was before. With a little more murderousness. I've never liked the Aurelian bloodline explanation, partly because, in my opinion, every vampire we've ever had prolonged exposure to (and witnessed their human lives, as well) turned out to be very similar, at least at first, to the person they were in life. With the possible exception of Spike's mum. The fact that almost all the vampires we've seen extensively have been Aurelian doesn't help to lend evidence for or against the hypothesis, unfortunately - we need more vamps who weren't to compare with. We don't even know that "Aurelian" has beans to do with bloodline - as far as I can tell (unless I missed something in canon, which I could have). You don't need to be, in fact, you likely aren't, "related" to join an "Order."
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Post by Lola m on Jul 6, 2005 7:25:38 GMT -5
I agree. By season 7, though, Buffy was so beleagered, and the threat was so much huger than Glory, that I think her perspective changed to one of "the good of the many outweigh the needs of the one" type of thinking. Not to mention, she got noooooo support at all from anyone other than Spike and probably felt that she would have to save the day alone, again, and if that meant sacrificing a part of her (Dawn) to save the world, she would have to do it. Besides, I got the impression that Buffy's innocence (Dawn) had been worn down to an itty bitty nub and she didn't feel the same about the mission anymore. It wasn't a hallowed calling, it became a horrifying burden that no one could share, until she found a way. Only at the end do we see the old Buffy re-appear with hope inside her. Also, with Glory she knew that ALL she had to do to defeat the Apocalypse was to sacrifice herself. There was no such simple "cure" for the sitch with TFE--and I don't think she was saying that she'd sacrifice Dawn *instead* of herself, rather, that even Dawn was not immune from whatever might be needed to defeat The First. I like what both of you have to say here. Definitely makes me feel better to remember where Buffy is at this point and the different situation they are facing.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 6, 2005 7:31:04 GMT -5
Hmm. But, as far as we know, Harmony wasn't of the Aurelian bloodline, and she was exactly the same person after she was turned as she was before. With a little more murderousness. I've never liked the Aurelian bloodline explanation, partly because, in my opinion, every vampire we've ever had prolonged exposure to (and witnessed their human lives, as well) turned out to be very similar, at least at first, to the person they were in life. With the possible exception of Spike's mum. The fact that almost all the vampires we've seen extensively have been Aurelian doesn't help to lend evidence for or against the hypothesis, unfortunately - we need more vamps who weren't to compare with. Perhaps she knew more about vampires than he did. He was an innocent. It could be that she did not want to be a vampire, it was horrific to her, yet she knew her son did it out of love for her as his only parent, and he loved her greatly. If she was intelligent, and I think the rising vampire also has the intelligence he or she died with, she goaded him into dusting her. The intelligence note is from watching Buffy take on so many vampires. They know what they are if they can get out of the ground long enough to think at all. Many of the ones we see weren't very smart to begin with so it is doubtful they will be more so after being turned. Digging your way out of the ground isn't the best way to start out. William didn't bury his mum. When she came around she could have known exactly where she was and what would happen if she stayed a vampire. Spike's mind had focused on those last horrifying moments with his mother, and after having to stake her, they had defined his life as a vampire. He was forever running away from that traumatic event. The reality of that scene with Wood was that Spike finally allowed himself to look beyond those last moments with his mother and realize that for all those years before he turned her, she had loved him, as her son, with all of her heart. Then he was able to break the conditioning the "first" had used to keep him under control. That moment no longer defined him. Dragon I really like the way you put this. That the experience was still there, but it didn't need to define Spike. And really, that's where Wood needed to go, too. To a place where his mother's death doesn't define him - where he has an identity and purpose beyond that. And frankly, they both need to for the same immediate reason, as well. Both were being manipulated by TFE using their mother issues.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 6, 2005 7:31:58 GMT -5
Hmm. But, as far as we know, Harmony wasn't of the Aurelian bloodline, and she was exactly the same person after she was turned as she was before. With a little more murderousness. I've never liked the Aurelian bloodline explanation, partly because, in my opinion, every vampire we've ever had prolonged exposure to (and witnessed their human lives, as well) turned out to be very similar, at least at first, to the person they were in life. With the possible exception of Spike's mum. The fact that almost all the vampires we've seen extensively have been Aurelian doesn't help to lend evidence for or against the hypothesis, unfortunately - we need more vamps who weren't to compare with. Perhaps she knew more about vampires than he did. He was an innocent. It could be that she did not want to be a vampire, it was horrific to her, yet she knew her son did it out of love for her as his only parent, and he loved her greatly. If she was intelligent, and I think the rising vampire also has the intelligence he or she died with, she goaded him into dusting her. MY TAKE: If she goaded him into dusting her, I would say she did this unconsciously; that was no act she was putting on - but her final expression does suggest possible unconscious motivation along this line. Agree - also interesting to note the deliberate parallels to Joyce's death (accompanied by Buffy mentioning her mother's death, to Wood, in the ep). William comes home, expecting to find his "dead mother on the couch" but she isn't there. The actress looks something like Joyce, which I think is quite deliberate, as is the whole "mom on the couch," thing. Like most everything else we see with these two, the deaths of their mothers are paralled - Spike's being a darker version of Buffy's: Both come home and deal with Mom's presence/absence on the couch . . . both try to get Mom back, in their fashion, but both fail in their desperate attempt . . . both go reeling from there. Exactly - and this is reinforced in the AtS finale, when we see the break includes the "hold over him" the Cecily rejection had, as well. He's begun to truly break free of the past with women - a past he perceived as full of hurt and betrayal - and moving forward. How I wish we could have seen more of him.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 6, 2005 7:33:21 GMT -5
Admiring the pretty also. Did anyone see that Billy Idol is doing a new CD - after 12 years. I saw a promo for this while watching the TV guide channel last night and all I could do was think of Spike. I do that whenver I see The Wedding Singer too. And then I remember Spike saying Billy copied him. Hee, hee. Oooh! Ooh! And there was a fic recently . . . on Summer of Spike I think . . . I'll have to try and find the link. Where Spike hunts Billy down, all angry because he's making a come back.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 6, 2005 7:50:49 GMT -5
Okay, so: the title. "Lies My Parents Told Me" We're presented with four parents of one sort or another in this ep: Nikki, Giles, Spike's Mum, and Drusilla. However, arguably, only one of them actually tells any lies, and that's Giles. He actively participates in the deception of Buffy with Wood. A case can also be made for Spike's mum - but when she's lying, and when she's saying what she really believes are, to me, debatable. Spike decides to believe that the demon version of her was the liar - which has a bit of logic behind it, but not a lot. As Anya says, "When I was evil, I told the truth all the time." We don't actually know if she was expressing, as a vampire, emotions that were always there but she was too nice a person to voice them. I think that she loved her son so much, that it overrode underlying, possibly totally or partially unconscious, feelings of being trapped, bored, and the like. She surely must have had those feelings at some level though - that's easy enough to believe. My take is that her negative, repressed feelings came to the surface when she became a vampire. She says something like she no longer dislikes "being cruel," suggesting kindness stayed her tongue in the past. I don't think Spike decided her demon version was "the liar" when it came to whether or not mummy loved his poems absolutely and such. But he did decide - correctly - that his mother, sans demon, would never, ever, have hurt him so cruelly and deliberately. Well - it's irrelevant in the moment, but it's not irrelevant in the long run. His mother did love him and he's not wrong though, I don't think in believing this. The fact that she likely had feelings of being trapped, bored, etc - this doesn't mean she didn't love him. All moms have these feelings sometimes. Not acting on them, and in fact, focusing on the positive and caring for your child anyhow, is part of expressing love to your child.
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Post by Rachael on Jul 6, 2005 7:56:54 GMT -5
Hmm. But, as far as we know, Harmony wasn't of the Aurelian bloodline, and she was exactly the same person after she was turned as she was before. With a little more murderousness. I've never liked the Aurelian bloodline explanation, partly because, in my opinion, every vampire we've ever had prolonged exposure to (and witnessed their human lives, as well) turned out to be very similar, at least at first, to the person they were in life. With the possible exception of Spike's mum. The fact that almost all the vampires we've seen extensively have been Aurelian doesn't help to lend evidence for or against the hypothesis, unfortunately - we need more vamps who weren't to compare with. We don't even know that "Aurelian" has beans to do with bloodline - as far as I can tell (unless I missed something in canon, which I could have). You don't need to be, in fact, you likely aren't, "related" to join an "Order." We do know it for those vampires we've had major exposure to, though. The Master sired Darla, Darla sired Angel, Angel sired Dru, Dru sired Spike - all four are "related" by the fact that they trace directly back to the leader of the Order of Aurelius. Which is what "Aurelian" means, in this context. Has nothing to do with any of the other vampires in the room - just those we know were sired by "relatives" of the Master. We don't, however, have any evidence that there's something special about them, just because we have nothing extensive enough to compare them with. Except possibly Harmony, and she provides evidence that there's nothing special about them. While I agree that there's absolutely no evidence in canon to say there IS anything particularly special about the Aurelians (and I personally don't believe that Joss intended there to be), we do have enough data to form a very sketchy hypothesis that something could be different about them.
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Post by Rachael on Jul 6, 2005 8:21:46 GMT -5
Okay, so: the title. "Lies My Parents Told Me" We're presented with four parents of one sort or another in this ep: Nikki, Giles, Spike's Mum, and Drusilla. However, arguably, only one of them actually tells any lies, and that's Giles. He actively participates in the deception of Buffy with Wood. A case can also be made for Spike's mum - but when she's lying, and when she's saying what she really believes are, to me, debatable. Spike decides to believe that the demon version of her was the liar - which has a bit of logic behind it, but not a lot. As Anya says, "When I was evil, I told the truth all the time." We don't actually know if she was expressing, as a vampire, emotions that were always there but she was too nice a person to voice them. I think that she loved her son so much, that it overrode underlying, possibly totally or partially unconscious, feelings of being trapped, bored, and the like. She surely must have had those feelings at some level though - that's easy enough to believe. My take is that her negative, repressed feelings came to the surface when she became a vampire. She says something like she no longer dislikes "being cruel," suggesting kindness stayed her tongue in the past. I don't think Spike decided her demon version was "the liar" when it came to whether or not mummy loved his poems absolutely and such. But he did decide - correctly - that his mother, sans demon, would never, ever, have hurt him so cruelly and deliberately. Well - it's irrelevant in the moment, but it's not irrelevant in the long run. His mother did love him and he's not wrong though, I don't think in believing this. The fact that she likely had feelings of being trapped, bored, etc - this doesn't mean she didn't love him. All moms have these feelings sometimes. Not acting on them, and in fact, focusing on the positive and caring for your child anyhow, is part of expressing love to your child. See, this helps me put a finger on something that's been bouncing around the back of my mind - some of the lies our parents tell us are important, and the absolute truth isn't always a good thing. Lies meant to spare feelings are sometimes the "right" choice. Among the things that seem to happen when someone is turned is the loss of all their social inhibitions. Spike's mother was telling the truth, but - it was a hurtful and pointless truth, and one better left unsaid forever. As you say, many if not all parents feel trapped and bored and unsure about wanting to be parents. But they don't TELL that to their children, for the most part. Because it's hurtful and not the most important aspect of their feelings about their children by a long shot. Wood had the absolute truth about Slaying vs. momming from his mother - the mission was the most important thing. It was true. It was also very hard on the psyche of her young son, and the question presents itself: is this a place where a little lie to your child might be a good thing? There's contrast between Spike's mother, who kept her less-than-wonderful emotions to herself, and Wood's mother, who was upfront about hers.
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