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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 4, 2005 20:25:33 GMT -5
Not having a moral center - I don't think this would someone from feeling personally hurt and betrayed. For example, I can imagine a horrific serial killer, or even Adolf Hitler, being capable of feeling personally hurt or betrayed. People like that don't feel for others (or very many others) but they definitely can feel for themselves. True, he could still feel hurt and betrayed, by why didn't his demon indulge in some amoral fun with mom? His reaction of horror is what appears anomalous to me. It doesn't bother me to think that his human side felt very hurt and betrayed (no active soul needed to experience that feeling), and quenched any tendency the demon side might have had to do differently. Well - my mom and in-laws usually watched my kids while I went to school or worked. But sometimes, even with two backups like that, things happened. They happen last minute, and they happen all at once, and you make do in the moment.
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Post by Rachael on Jul 4, 2005 21:51:39 GMT -5
Also, I was just thinkig of how we have a great opportunity to compare reactions of newly risen vamps here. I was thinking much the same thing. How much of a newly risen vampire's personality is the same, and how much is the demon that now resides in place of the soul? Yes; William/Spike is basically the same person after vamping, at least around the people he loves. He has the usual vamp bloodlust towards strangers, but he's still going to keep his promises to his mother. Ah, but a very interesting question. Is she her same basic self, only very angry to have been turned, and looking to hurt the person who turned her? Because despite the cruelty in it, not all of her speech is untrue, IMO. He was a bit too strongly attached to his mum - "I have a woman in my life." And the turning, itself - usually, I see that as a parasexual act - and almost always, the vamp chooses a sexually attractive person (and potential sex partner) to turn. So there's a hint of incest in Spike turning his mum. Or was the demon just far more in control of mum than of son? Perhaps she lacked adequate ties to the world (seeing as how she was preparing to leave it anyway) to continue to have her original personality dominate.
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Post by Rachael on Jul 4, 2005 21:55:09 GMT -5
Besides, I think his mother was not all that great, putting her only child in harms way all the time. He should not have been with her on the hunt, under any circumstance. But, that's just my opinion. Eetah. The first thing I thought when watching this ep was, "She takes him patrolling? WTF?" He should never have been there. Although - it might have saved her life that night. Why didn't Spike kill her? Was it really about prolonging the game, or was it because he didn't want the son to have to watch his mother die?
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Post by Rachael on Jul 4, 2005 21:58:40 GMT -5
Right. There is more of William in newly turned "Spike to be" than otherwise would have been thought. Perhaps it depends on the demon aspect passed on, but even with Holden, we saw some of the college psych major than perhaps we should have. I wonder if perhaps the soul is lost incrementally. The more a vamp kills to eat the more of his human soul is lost to the ether. Any thoughts? I know it's been discussed before, but I tend to think it's more about the vampire bloodline (order of Aurelius). I believe that when someone first becomes a vampire, they start out almost as a blank slate, with no traces of soul or moral compass, but the more kills they make, the more evil they become--not just because they're killing more and more people, but because that state of mind is becoming ingrained in them, to the point where they no longer remember what it was like to have morals or a soul. And they don't understand (or even think about) why killing is evil, they just know that it's fun, and that they need blood to survive. But I think there is something special about the Aurelian bloodline. There is something about it which, I believe, allows for the possibility of some of the aspects of the human soul to remain after turning. Maybe what is needed to make this possibility come to fruition is some sort of catalyst, such as Dru's psychic abilities. That could explain why William wasn't the normal newly-risen vamp. Or maybe it was a combination of human William's compassion and Dru's psychic abilities that made it possible for vamp William to retain some of his human soul's aspects. Hmm. But, as far as we know, Harmony wasn't of the Aurelian bloodline, and she was exactly the same person after she was turned as she was before. With a little more murderousness. I've never liked the Aurelian bloodline explanation, partly because, in my opinion, every vampire we've ever had prolonged exposure to (and witnessed their human lives, as well) turned out to be very similar, at least at first, to the person they were in life. With the possible exception of Spike's mum. The fact that almost all the vampires we've seen extensively have been Aurelian doesn't help to lend evidence for or against the hypothesis, unfortunately - we need more vamps who weren't to compare with.
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Post by Rachael on Jul 4, 2005 22:00:17 GMT -5
I agree he shouldn't have been with her on the hunt, but we get the idea she is a single mom - and their were times I took a child where he really shouldn't be, because I had to. If there is truly no one to watch him - and you've really got to be somewhere, whatchya gonna do? Myself, I'd've left him at home, alone, in a locked apartment, sooner than take him out where the vampires could get at him.
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Post by Squeemonster on Jul 4, 2005 22:01:14 GMT -5
Or was the demon just far more in control of mum than of son? Perhaps she lacked adequate ties to the world (seeing as how she was preparing to leave it anyway) to continue to have her original personality dominate. Oohh, that's a very intriguing idea--I had never thought of that before (or read anything like it).
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Post by Onjel on Jul 4, 2005 22:03:41 GMT -5
Besides, I think his mother was not all that great, putting her only child in harms way all the time. He should not have been with her on the hunt, under any circumstance. But, that's just my opinion. Eetah. The first thing I thought when watching this ep was, "She takes him patrolling? WTF?" He should never have been there. Although - it might have saved her life that night. Why didn't Spike kill her? Was it really about prolonging the game, or was it because he didn't want the son to have to watch his mother die? I wondered that, too, but I can't remember if Spike new at the time that the little boy was her son or even that Robin was witnessing the whole thing. So, it might be giving him too much credit to say that he didn't want Robin to witness his mother's death. On the other hand, I could just watch the DVD and refresh my recollection and find out that he did know about Robin and was waiting to catch her alone.
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Post by Onjel on Jul 4, 2005 22:07:00 GMT -5
I know it's been discussed before, but I tend to think it's more about the vampire bloodline (order of Aurelius). I believe that when someone first becomes a vampire, they start out almost as a blank slate, with no traces of soul or moral compass, but the more kills they make, the more evil they become--not just because they're killing more and more people, but because that state of mind is becoming ingrained in them, to the point where they no longer remember what it was like to have morals or a soul. And they don't understand (or even think about) why killing is evil, they just know that it's fun, and that they need blood to survive. But I think there is something special about the Aurelian bloodline. There is something about it which, I believe, allows for the possibility of some of the aspects of the human soul to remain after turning. Maybe what is needed to make this possibility come to fruition is some sort of catalyst, such as Dru's psychic abilities. That could explain why William wasn't the normal newly-risen vamp. Or maybe it was a combination of human William's compassion and Dru's psychic abilities that made it possible for vamp William to retain some of his human soul's aspects. Hmm. But, as far as we know, Harmony wasn't of the Aurelian bloodline, and she was exactly the same person after she was turned as she was before. With a little more murderousness. I've never liked the Aurelian bloodline explanation, partly because, in my opinion, every vampire we've ever had prolonged exposure to (and witnessed their human lives, as well) turned out to be very similar, at least at first, to the person they were in life. With the possible exception of Spike's mum. The fact that almost all the vampires we've seen extensively have been Aurelian doesn't help to lend evidence for or against the hypothesis, unfortunately - we need more vamps who weren't to compare with. I'm with you on this. I think the person's personality remains, although their sense of right and wrong takes a hit. Their conscience may go by the boards, but the rest of what makes them who they were remains to a certain extent, which explains why Spike was so anxious to push William away and become the antithesis of himself. I had a point here, but I can't remember what it was.
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Post by Rachael on Jul 4, 2005 22:07:21 GMT -5
Okay, so: the title. "Lies My Parents Told Me" We're presented with four parents of one sort or another in this ep: Nikki, Giles, Spike's Mum, and Drusilla. However, arguably, only one of them actually tells any lies, and that's Giles. He actively participates in the deception of Buffy with Wood. A case can also be made for Spike's mum - but when she's lying, and when she's saying what she really believes are, to me, debatable. Spike decides to believe that the demon version of her was the liar - which has a bit of logic behind it, but not a lot. As Anya says, "When I was evil, I told the truth all the time." We don't actually know if she was expressing, as a vampire, emotions that were always there but she was too nice a person to voice them. And, well, as I posted a few posts ago - she's not entirely wrong. In either case, Spike needs to believe his mum loved him, so he chooses to do so, which is the right choice; whether it's the correct choice is irrelevant. As for Nikki - hell, I thought she was dead honest all the way through. She loved Robin, but not more than she needed to be the Slayer. The mission was always first. Which she said. And Dru - didn't get enough airtime to contribute to this discussion. Anyway...ultimately, the lies told boil down to Buffy and Spike's parents, and in my mind stand in contrast to Nikki, who told the truth. The fact that that truth hurt as much as the lies told by the other parents is interesting.
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Post by Onjel on Jul 4, 2005 22:08:43 GMT -5
I agree he shouldn't have been with her on the hunt, but we get the idea she is a single mom - and their were times I took a child where he really shouldn't be, because I had to. If there is truly no one to watch him - and you've really got to be somewhere, whatchya gonna do? Myself, I'd've left him at home, alone, in a locked apartment, sooner than take him out where the vampires could get at him. Yep, I won't argue with this. Her job was deadly, not someplace with a little bit of risk or an element of danger, so I thought it was a bit weird to have her patrolling with a kid.
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Post by Rachael on Jul 4, 2005 22:08:44 GMT -5
Eetah. The first thing I thought when watching this ep was, "She takes him patrolling? WTF?" He should never have been there. Although - it might have saved her life that night. Why didn't Spike kill her? Was it really about prolonging the game, or was it because he didn't want the son to have to watch his mother die? I wondered that, too, but I can't remember if Spike new at the time that the little boy was her son or even that Robin was witnessing the whole thing. So, it might be giving him too much credit to say that he didn't want Robin to witness his mother's death. On the other hand, I could just watch the DVD and refresh my recollection and find out that he did know about Robin and was waiting to catch her alone. Spike is closing in for the kill, and Robin makes a noise that draws Spike's attention. Nikki regroups with the distraction, but, ultimately, Spike gets her stake and then just...leaves, with a smartass remark.
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Post by Onjel on Jul 4, 2005 22:12:14 GMT -5
I wondered that, too, but I can't remember if Spike new at the time that the little boy was her son or even that Robin was witnessing the whole thing. So, it might be giving him too much credit to say that he didn't want Robin to witness his mother's death. On the other hand, I could just watch the DVD and refresh my recollection and find out that he did know about Robin and was waiting to catch her alone. Spike is closing in for the kill, and Robin makes a noise that draws Spike's attention. Nikki regroups with the distraction, but, ultimately, Spike gets her stake and then just...leaves, with a smartass remark. Thanks, I'd forgotten that and being engrossed with Firefly, hadn't re-watched this ep. Well, I think old Spikey gets some credit for this, then. Whatever his motivation, he did not kill Nikki Wood in front of her son. Perhaps he recalled seeing his mother die, even if it was by his own hand, and remembered a young man's pain. Or, not. Whatever, it was a good thing he did, leaving her with her son.
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Post by Rachael on Jul 4, 2005 22:17:53 GMT -5
Other stuff: The episode opens with rain, which I now look at with suspicion whenever I see it, 'cause Erin told me it often symbolizes baptism/rebirth of some kind. But...in this ep, rain might just be rain. Wood: "You remind me of my mother." Eww, and no shit. There's not a little of the Freudian going on in the two mother-son relationships in this episode. But, in neither case do I think either son is really taking it to the extreme that the Oedipus complex implies. Both, however, might have unhealthy connections to their mothers. I LOVED Giles' casual mention of demon-fighting in the principal's office. It's gotten so bad in Sunnydale that people don't even bother to remember to close the doors when they talk about demons and occult libraries. ;D Giles, re: Spike's brain: I don't think it takes up that much space, do you? Anya: Forgiveness makes us human...blah di blah blah blah. Anyone but me creeped by Dru's body language in the scene with Spike's mum? The rubbing of her belly as if she was preggers? "Sorry. Not much for self-reflection." Hee, and also - was that a lie? Or was this the turning point? Buffy would now let Dawn die to save the world?? Sorry, but I don't actually see this as an improvement, necessarily. I mean, okay, it makes her a better general...but a worse person. And for me, Buffy's ties to the world and the people in it were her greatest strength. No sacrificing Dawny! Spike ultimately made the right choice re: his mum, despite his vampireness. He loved her, and he killed her rather than let her continue to be something she'd have abhorred in life. Interesting that he was still capable of making moral decisions. And finally, Buffy: I have a mission....The mission is what matters. Deliberate echoing of Wood's mom, just as with the "You're beneath me" line from two seasons earlier....
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 5, 2005 7:15:06 GMT -5
OK, my notes...
Vengeance is bad, folks. You heard it here first. *****
References to parent/child relationships (or pseudo-parent child relationships):
Buffy/Spike Buffy/Wood Buffy/Dawn Joyce/Buffy Angel/Buffy Giles/Buffy Nikki/Wood Crowley/Wood Dru/Spike Spike/Spike's Mom
(the Spike/Nikki fight with YoungRobin watching plays as "Mom's with her new boyfriend and paying more attention to him than me" so maybe a bit of a jealousy towards a potential step father there) *****
Wood: No, I don't wanna kill you, Spike. I wanna kill the monster who took my mother away from me.
So technically, that would be the Slayer essence, not Spike himself. However, Spike has represented Buffy's dark side, her Slayerness, throughout the series. Here in this episode, I think again Spike is representing Slayerness, so Wood really was right the first time. *******
Connections between Spike's Mom and Buffy: Spike's Mom is blond and petit and Spike says that she's "glowing." In the shooting script, she is even called Anne, Buffy's middle name and in the DVD commentary they reveal that that was deliberate and point out the they cast the actress who plays her specifically because she looks the way Buffy might look at that age.
When Spike goes feral after hearing the trigger song in the flashback, he grabs Buffy and throws her, I think, as an expression of feelings towards his mother. ******
The revelation of the incident between Spike and Spike's mom proves to me definitively why Spike never once thought turning Buffy in season 6 would be a good idea (and why the AR was appropriate in Seeing Red and not and attempted vamping). ******
There are two key exchanges that really shape Spike's character as a vampire:
(as humans) Spike’s Mom: She's (Cecily's) lovely. You shouldn't be alone. You need a woman in your life. Spike: I have a woman in my life. Spike’s Mom: But you ne— (realizes he means her) Oh... Spike: Well, do not mistake me. I still have hopes that one day there will be an addition to this household, but I will always look after you, mother. This, I promise.
(after being turned) Spike: Whatever I was, that's not who I am anymore. Spike’s Mom: Darling, it's who you'll always be. A limp... sentimental fool. You want to run, don't you? Scamper off and cry to your new little trollop. Do you think you'll be able to love her? Think you'll be able to touch her without feeling me? *****
I think there are any number of interpretations (which makes this episode so fun), but my personal theory is that Spike's mom goaded him into staking her: 1) Because she didn't want to live. She had a death wish as a human, evidenced by her not wanting Spike to call a doctor. I think she really didn't want to spend the rest of her days with Spike looking after her. 2) To take vengeance on his turning her against her will. Here are the exchanges that I think prove my point:
(after Spike's mom wakes up from being turned into a vampire) Spike: Look at you. Spike’s Mom: Yes. All better. Spike: You're glowing. Spike’s Mom: Am I? Well, I suppose I have you to thank for that, don't I? How ever will I repay you? Spike: Seeing you like this is payment enough. Spike’s Mom: Oh, William, you're so... tender. Spike: Well, this is as it should be, mother. You and I together. All of London laid out before us. Spike’s Mom: Ah, yes. Us.
There's a double edge to her words that Spike doesn't pick up. "I suppose I have you to thank for that" and "However will I repay you?" She's rather calm and almost normal, if resentful, initially.
Spike: Tell me, what's your pleasure? Spike’s Mom: Pleasure? To take my leave of you, of course. "The lark hath spake from twixt its wee beak?" You honestly thought I could bear an eternity listening to that twaddle? I feel extraordinary. It's as though I've been given new eyes. I see everything. Understand... everything. I hate to be cruel— No, I don't. I used to hate to be cruel in life. Now, I find it rather freeing. Nothing less will pry your greedy little fingers off my apron strings, will it?
"Nothing less [than being cruel] will pry your greedy little fingers off my apron strings." To me this says that everything she says next is deliberate, with the intention of goading Spike into staking her. She could probably kill herself in some way, but it's more fun to make him do it to get back at him.
Spike’s Mom: Perhaps you’d like the chance to finish what you started.
i.e. killing her.
Spike and his mom struggle a bit, but she stops once Spike breaks off the stake, and says...
Spike’s Mom: There, there, precious. It will only hurt for a moment. (love the bitter irony of that!)
And does not defend herself in any way when he actually does stake her. ****
Points to ponder: *Spike says "I'm sorry" right before he stakes her. But no soul means no conscience, no ability to feel sorry. This could be taken to mean that Spike had some anomalous ability to feel psuedo-guilt on rare occasions (the other being the crypt scene in Seeing Red), but I wonder whether what really happened was that he could regret what he did on an intellectual level, but he really couldn't internalize it and deal with it until he got his soul back and could genuinely feel remorse.
*Spike mentions this incident twice in ATS season 5. I got the impression that he kept blurting it out like that because he really wanted to talk to some one about what happened.
More to come probably, but I don't want to spam you all.
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Post by Pixi on Jul 5, 2005 8:37:20 GMT -5
Over and over again I am impressed by how intellectual, analytical and observant S'cubies are. Great discussion everyone!
First off - I must say - this was NOT on my list. I really, really disliked the upshot of this episode - which was Buffy and Giles exchange.
So instead of delving into what has gone before, I'm going to give my (admittedly) not deep impressions.
I'll start off by saying I love Giles. I mean what a wonderful character. I loved him from the first moment I saw him in the library. I have a weakness for British accents (my first post college boyfriend was British and I'm sure he seduced me with his silken voice alone).
Giles is terrific. His character is built up over the years with so many (Hi Ripper) terrific layers. I love him.
Then of course Giles left - which I hated but I understand actors have personal lives but suddenly he wasn't there. And the show truly suffered for the lack of Giles. Big time!
But then - yeah he's back but is he? I hated the characterization of Giles in the 7th season. He was underused, used for cheap laughs and completely and totally did not act in character.
I know Giles has hated Spike in the past but I'm sorry - I just didn't buy this. He would have cared about his soul, he would not have turned on Spike like this.
I hate that he conspired with Wood and I hate the way he lied to Buffy.
Sometimes parents and parental substitutes do have to lie to their children. I get that. But I thought this was out of character. Giles can be harsh - he killed Glory/Ben when he had to but I think he and Buffy have a much better relationship than this sorry situation.
So I really disliked this episode for that reason. It did have good acting, it did reveal alot of Spike's backstory (and I really, really disliked his mum) and we did get to see Punk Spike again - which is always good but I hate character assassination with a passion. I think the writers dropped the ball on Giles in the 7th season.
I'm sure many can rise up and dispute that - trust me I've heard all the reasons and they are all good. Yes - this can all be interpreted in many ways but I didn't like it and didn't feel that this was something Giles would have done.
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