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Post by Rachael on Jul 6, 2005 16:05:35 GMT -5
We do know it for those vampires we've had major exposure to, though. The Master sired Darla, Darla sired Angel, Angel sired Dru, Dru sired Spike - all four are "related" by the fact that they trace directly back to the leader of the Order of Aurelius. Which is what "Aurelian" means, in this context. Has nothing to do with any of the other vampires in the room - just those we know were sired by "relatives" of the Master. What I'm not understanding is this: Where in canon do we learn that being "Aurelian" has anything to do with being RELATED to The Master? Nowhere. I'm just using it as shorthand for that - to refer to the vampires we know were direct decendants of the Master. I'm not assigning it any actual value - it's just a shorthand way of saying, "Angel, Darla, Dru, and Spike".
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 6, 2005 18:22:14 GMT -5
Not to distract from this great discussion, but I thought of something today that I wanted to put out there, about Spike's memory of the incident with his mother and the trigger. Please pipe up if you know more about this, i.e. have watched more brain-washing movies that I have.
Was this memory of what happened between Spike and his mom a repressed memory, (one that he didn't consciously remember until LMPTM) or was it just one he tried his darndest not to think about?
How exactly did The First manage to set-up the trigger? I mean I've only seen The Manchurian Candidate once, but I'm not quite sure how brainwashing works in the movies. Is it just excessive conditioning-stimulus-response or what? I'm trying to imagine what kind of scenario Spike went through between Grave and when he regained his "sanity" in season 7.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 6, 2005 20:49:44 GMT -5
According to the commentaries, writers were looking for an actress who looked like older Buffy This is an excerpt from the beginning of the third act (transcribed by DeborahW, BAPS) DG - Goddard DF - Fury DB - D.B. Woodside (Principal Robin Wood) DG I love this scene right here
DF I think I had the best time ever shooting this scene because of James and oh my God I wish I could remember her name
DB was her name Anne?
DG the characters name was Anne which was for those Buffy fans, it’s never mentioned in the script but it’s of course Buffy’s middle name
DB I did not know that
DF so we called her Ann to kind of because you know we wanted, there’s definitely a little bit of a Motherly, there’s a Motherly sort of a symbolic connection here between Spike and his Mother and Buffy and what Buffy’s been to Spike and you know all the oedipal issues that would be involved there it just seemed like a nice touch
DG I remember you running into my office saying we’ve found the woman, she looks like Sarah at that age
DG yeah well she had the blonde hair and she was small, and she was British which was wonderful because part of the thing is finding an actress who can do a good British accent
DF oh I love this scene, this scene our first drafts of this we didn’t push it far enough and Joss came in and said make it more twisted, more twisted. Which I hated hearing of course because I’m like very conservative
JM (laughs) Oh yeah safety first Fury
DF I had to call my Mum and say “Mum I love you very much and this whole scene about possibly having sex with you has nothing to do with it (Laughter)
JM he made me do it, he made me do it Mum
DF and the wonderful thing here is just the matter of fact ness of her cruelty
DG yes it’s beautiful
JM yeah and you worked like a long time for this one
DF she was wonderful because she totally got it, I mean even when she realised “ You know what I’m becoming too arch I’m becoming too villainous” and I’d say yep you’re right , bring it back, just be casual and when she did it was just very chilling I thought and the pain of watching you go through this pain as she’s saying these words to you that’s fascinating and it’s also offered a lot of controversy , there’s been a lot of controversy with my opinions about Spike and about his, the nature of Spike and a lot of people are concerned why is Spike, why is Spike letting her talk to him in that way? Why is he so hurt? He’s a vampire why would he, why does he seem. And I Think that was the point of this episode it was to say Spike is an anomaly in the vampire world, he has some facet of his soul even if it was removed when he became a vampire is still, he has more humanity as a vampire tan most vampires do. We haven’t explained why that is but perhaps something about the character of him as a man and he’s retained it as a vampire
JM yeah I mean it’s a kind of a technicality that you have to explain but it works as the character Thanks so much for the commentary quoting, Moscow Watcher! **makes note to watch the commentaries on season 7 soon**
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 6, 2005 21:08:55 GMT -5
Not to distract from this great discussion, but I thought of something today that I wanted to put out there, about Spike's memory of the incident with his mother and the trigger. Please pipe up if you know more about this, i.e. have watched more brain-washing movies that I have. Was this memory of what happened between Spike and his mom a repressed memory, (one that he didn't consciously remember until LMPTM) or was it just one he tried his darndest not to think about? How exactly did The First manage to set-up the trigger? I mean I've only seen The Manchurian Candidate once, but I'm not quite sure how brainwashing works in the movies. Is it just excessive conditioning-stimulus-response or what? I'm trying to imagine what kind of scenario Spike went through between Grave and when he regained his "sanity" in season 7. I can only say that I had the distinct impression that Spike remembered these things - they weren't repressed memories in the sense of inaccessible to him - but they were things he avoided thinking about, as you mention. I guess The First knew about the song because well, it's The First. As to brainwashing, I'm not sure such things as "triggers" like that are even actually possible in real life. But if so, I know nothing about them, nor have I heard of a similar real-life example.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 6, 2005 21:11:00 GMT -5
Not to distract from this great discussion, but I thought of something today that I wanted to put out there, about Spike's memory of the incident with his mother and the trigger. Please pipe up if you know more about this, i.e. have watched more brain-washing movies that I have. Was this memory of what happened between Spike and his mom a repressed memory, (one that he didn't consciously remember until LMPTM) or was it just one he tried his darndest not to think about? How exactly did The First manage to set-up the trigger? I mean I've only seen The Manchurian Candidate once, but I'm not quite sure how brainwashing works in the movies. Is it just excessive conditioning-stimulus-response or what? I'm trying to imagine what kind of scenario Spike went through between Grave and when he regained his "sanity" in season 7. That's a good question. I don't know for sure (and, in fact, I'm not sure that everyone agrees that true brainwashing is really possible). I know the little I've read or seen in movies usually includes sensory deprivation or torture and often drugs. I tend to think that TFE also had some additional mystical abilities at its command. Using and manipulating Spike's post-soul confusion and so on. Hmmmmm. Anyone else have more info or other ideas? We should have Xander here - he'd be able to help!
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Post by Linda on Jul 7, 2005 6:57:14 GMT -5
Wow! You guys are having a great discussion here! Argh! I wish I could post Eetah! or Good point! to everyone's posts. But the combination of dial-up slowness and 2am-ness confounds me at the moment. My post is kinda repeating some folk, so just consider this as me chiming in with my opinion. So, my take on this episode comes down to the lines from the Spike vs. Wood Truth Fight: Wood: She was my world! Spike: And you weren't hers. Doesn't that piss you off? You know, when I think about it, all of the parents being shown were, IMO, good parents who loved their kids and did the best that they could. Sure, they weren't perfect, but they tried their best. I can imagine that Nikki, being a single mom AND a Slayer, was being pulled in so many different directions that she could easily have been distant or neglectful. But Robin never doubted that she loved him and that she would have returned to him if she hadn't been killed. Giles loved Buffy and gave up his position on the Council for her. He saved Buffy's world for her at the end of Season Six. Anne, I have no doubt, repressed the heck out of her feelings in order to be a part of Victorian Society, and to be a suitable and loving Mum to William. Buffy threw herself off a tower so that Dawn wouldn't have to in order to save the world. And yet, despite their real love and best of intentions, they also betray their children. Nikki had to follow her duty and Slay vamps, ultimately leading to her death and the broken childhood of Robin. Giles, in order to keep his daughter-Slayer and proto-Slayers physically safe, chose to have Spike killed, despite what he knew of Buffy's feelings. Anne, having been turned, let her repressed feelings out: anger, contempt, cruel glee. If Anne had ever undergone a Truth-spell without losing her soul, I actually believe that her opinions would have been the same -- just not so gleefully expressed. Well, except for the incest thing. 'Cause that's just icky. Buffy, if she had no other possible choice, realized that she would sacrifice Dawn to save the world. I wonder if it was *this* realization rather than Giles' actions that made Buffy a true parent on an equal footing with Giles. In any case, the cold hard reality is that parents are people, too. They have their own needs and problems. The best parents make your world safe for you. But someday, unless you choose to hide forever, you will find out that the best parents are liars, because nothing is safe. Not even themselves. Argh! I wish I had time to have more of a think about everyone else's posts! Good stuff here! Linda, haven't even watched the Angel episode yet. P.S. Miss you guys! I haven't been keeping up with the main thread. Stupid RL.
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Post by Dragon on Jul 7, 2005 18:02:32 GMT -5
According to the commentaries, writers were looking for an actress who looked like older Buffy This is an excerpt from the beginning of the third act (transcribed by DeborahW, BAPS) DG - Goddard DF - Fury DB - D.B. Woodside (Principal Robin Wood) DG I love this scene right here
DF I think I had the best time ever shooting this scene because of James and oh my God I wish I could remember her name
DB was her name Anne?
DG the characters name was Anne which was for those Buffy fans, it’s never mentioned in the script but it’s of course Buffy’s middle name
DB I did not know that
DF so we called her Ann to kind of because you know we wanted, there’s definitely a little bit of a Motherly, there’s a Motherly sort of a symbolic connection here between Spike and his Mother and Buffy and what Buffy’s been to Spike and you know all the oedipal issues that would be involved there it just seemed like a nice touch
DG I remember you running into my office saying we’ve found the woman, she looks like Sarah at that age
DG yeah well she had the blonde hair and she was small, and she was British which was wonderful because part of the thing is finding an actress who can do a good British accent
DF oh I love this scene, this scene our first drafts of this we didn’t push it far enough and Joss came in and said make it more twisted, more twisted. Which I hated hearing of course because I’m like very conservative
JM (laughs) Oh yeah safety first Fury
DF I had to call my Mum and say “Mum I love you very much and this whole scene about possibly having sex with you has nothing to do with it (Laughter)
JM he made me do it, he made me do it Mum
DF and the wonderful thing here is just the matter of fact ness of her cruelty
DG yes it’s beautiful
JM yeah and you worked like a long time for this one
DF she was wonderful because she totally got it, I mean even when she realised “ You know what I’m becoming too arch I’m becoming too villainous” and I’d say yep you’re right , bring it back, just be casual and when she did it was just very chilling I thought and the pain of watching you go through this pain as she’s saying these words to you that’s fascinating and it’s also offered a lot of controversy , there’s been a lot of controversy with my opinions about Spike and about his, the nature of Spike and a lot of people are concerned why is Spike, why is Spike letting her talk to him in that way? Why is he so hurt? He’s a vampire why would he, why does he seem. And I Think that was the point of this episode it was to say Spike is an anomaly in the vampire world, he has some facet of his soul even if it was removed when he became a vampire is still, he has more humanity as a vampire tan most vampires do. We haven’t explained why that is but perhaps something about the character of him as a man and he’s retained it as a vampire
JM yeah I mean it’s a kind of a technicality that you have to explain but it works as the character YES!!!!! Just what I had speculated on, and thought. Dragon
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Post by Lola m on Jul 7, 2005 19:40:41 GMT -5
Wow! You guys are having a great discussion here! Argh! I wish I could post Eetah! or Good point! to everyone's posts. But the combination of dial-up slowness and 2am-ness confounds me at the moment. My post is kinda repeating some folk, so just consider this as me chiming in with my opinion. So, my take on this episode comes down to the lines from the Spike vs. Wood Truth Fight: Wood: She was my world! Spike: And you weren't hers. Doesn't that piss you off? You know, when I think about it, all of the parents being shown were, IMO, good parents who loved their kids and did the best that they could. Sure, they weren't perfect, but they tried their best. I can imagine that Nikki, being a single mom AND a Slayer, was being pulled in so many different directions that she could easily have been distant or neglectful. But Robin never doubted that she loved him and that she would have returned to him if she hadn't been killed. Giles loved Buffy and gave up his position on the Council for her. He saved Buffy's world for her at the end of Season Six. Anne, I have no doubt, repressed the heck out of her feelings in order to be a part of Victorian Society, and to be a suitable and loving Mum to William. Buffy threw herself off a tower so that Dawn wouldn't have to in order to save the world. And yet, despite their real love and best of intentions, they also betray their children. Nikki had to follow her duty and Slay vamps, ultimately leading to her death and the broken childhood of Robin. Giles, in order to keep his daughter-Slayer and proto-Slayers physically safe, chose to have Spike killed, despite what he knew of Buffy's feelings. Anne, having been turned, let her repressed feelings out: anger, contempt, cruel glee. If Anne had ever undergone a Truth-spell without losing her soul, I actually believe that her opinions would have been the same -- just not so gleefully expressed. Well, except for the incest thing. 'Cause that's just icky. Buffy, if she had no other possible choice, realized that she would sacrifice Dawn to save the world. I wonder if it was *this* realization rather than Giles' actions that made Buffy a true parent on an equal footing with Giles. In any case, the cold hard reality is that parents are people, too. They have their own needs and problems. The best parents make your world safe for you. But someday, unless you choose to hide forever, you will find out that the best parents are liars, because nothing is safe. Not even themselves. Argh! I wish I had time to have more of a think about everyone else's posts! Good stuff here! Linda, haven't even watched the Angel episode yet. P.S. Miss you guys! I haven't been keeping up with the main thread. Stupid RL. I like the way you and others have been pointing out that the "lies" of the parents are often related to the unrealistic expectations of the children. As children grow to be adults, they usually are able to move toward a more realistic view of their parents - as human and fallible like any adult. Like themselves. I would sometimes argue that that is a hallmark of being a grown-up oneself. The abiliity to still love your parents as . . . well, as your parents, but also to see them as people.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 7, 2005 19:42:30 GMT -5
According to the commentaries, writers were looking for an actress who looked like older Buffy This is an excerpt from the beginning of the third act (transcribed by DeborahW, BAPS) DG - Goddard DF - Fury DB - D.B. Woodside (Principal Robin Wood) DG I love this scene right here
DF I think I had the best time ever shooting this scene because of James and oh my God I wish I could remember her name
DB was her name Anne?
DG the characters name was Anne which was for those Buffy fans, it’s never mentioned in the script but it’s of course Buffy’s middle name
DB I did not know that
DF so we called her Ann to kind of because you know we wanted, there’s definitely a little bit of a Motherly, there’s a Motherly sort of a symbolic connection here between Spike and his Mother and Buffy and what Buffy’s been to Spike and you know all the oedipal issues that would be involved there it just seemed like a nice touch
DG I remember you running into my office saying we’ve found the woman, she looks like Sarah at that age
DG yeah well she had the blonde hair and she was small, and she was British which was wonderful because part of the thing is finding an actress who can do a good British accent
DF oh I love this scene, this scene our first drafts of this we didn’t push it far enough and Joss came in and said make it more twisted, more twisted. Which I hated hearing of course because I’m like very conservative
JM (laughs) Oh yeah safety first Fury
DF I had to call my Mum and say “Mum I love you very much and this whole scene about possibly having sex with you has nothing to do with it (Laughter)
JM he made me do it, he made me do it Mum
DF and the wonderful thing here is just the matter of fact ness of her cruelty
DG yes it’s beautiful
JM yeah and you worked like a long time for this one
DF she was wonderful because she totally got it, I mean even when she realised “ You know what I’m becoming too arch I’m becoming too villainous” and I’d say yep you’re right , bring it back, just be casual and when she did it was just very chilling I thought and the pain of watching you go through this pain as she’s saying these words to you that’s fascinating and it’s also offered a lot of controversy , there’s been a lot of controversy with my opinions about Spike and about his, the nature of Spike and a lot of people are concerned why is Spike, why is Spike letting her talk to him in that way? Why is he so hurt? He’s a vampire why would he, why does he seem. And I Think that was the point of this episode it was to say Spike is an anomaly in the vampire world, he has some facet of his soul even if it was removed when he became a vampire is still, he has more humanity as a vampire tan most vampires do. We haven’t explained why that is but perhaps something about the character of him as a man and he’s retained it as a vampire
JM yeah I mean it’s a kind of a technicality that you have to explain but it works as the character YES!!!!! Just what I had speculated on, and thought. DragonI love the confirmation of the "specialness" of Spike. I mean, largely because I love the character so much, but also as a vindication of the things we have actually noticed. A confirmation that the things we have seen are not just coincidence.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 7, 2005 19:48:55 GMT -5
More favorite quotes:
Giles: (entering) Everything's terrible. Total catastrophe. Buffy: Giles, what's wrong? Giles: Have you seen the new library? There's nothing but computers. There's not a book to be seen. I don't know where to begin, Buffy. I mean, who do we speak to?
Buffy: Hey, any apocalypse I avert without dying? Yeah, those are the easy ones.
Spike to Nikki in 1977: Don't want the dance to end so soon, do you, Nikki? The music's just starting, isn't it? By the way...love the coat.
Spike: I don't give a piss about your mum. She was a slayer. I was a vampire. That's the way the game is played. ( I've always loved this no-nonsense statement of the mutual square-off between slayer and vamp. It's the nature of both of them. Now, it doesn't address the additional predatory nature of the vampire, preying on humans and the slayer's role in protecting them. But that's not the topic Spike was addressing. He was talking strictly about the vampire-slayer duel.)
I also love watching the dynamic between Spike, Buffy, Giles and Wood as they talk about Spike's trigger and whether or not it is disabled.
The whole scene with: Giles: Spike, listen to me. What is it about your mother? Spike: I don't know. I got along fine with her. She was a nice lady. Giles: Well there has to be more than that. Spike: (screaming) Well, there bloody well isn't! Giles: (to Buffy) What are you doing? Buffy: I'm going to unchain him. Giles: Buffy, just? Buffy: This is pointless, Giles. He doesn't know anything. Your prophylactic stone didn't work. Giles: Because he's not cooperating. This process takes time. He's blocking whatever's flooding his consciousness. And what he does?he's endangering us all. Wood: So, the trigger's still working? Giles: Much as ever.
I just love watching and listening to each of them. What is Giles really thinking? Buffy? Wood? Spike? The whole dynamic here is so interesting! What are their hidden thoughts. They each have their own agenda and goal.
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Post by Dragon on Jul 7, 2005 20:39:24 GMT -5
If the Order really meant anything, then all the minions sired by any of them would have been in the same order. But obviously, they were just minions. Darla being sired by the Master and having sired Angelus, was just smarter when she was turned. the Master part comes from having survived a long time. she kept Angelus from getting dusted, and he must have been out getting into trouble just like William or he couldn't have given so much time to Dru. Angelus liked to torture his victims before eating or turning them and Spike went for the joy of the fight . Both actions would call attention to the vampires' presence, and would be dangerous to the four of them. I don't think it has been noted whether they had minions at the time or not. DragonThe whole minoin thing is interesting in itself. I mean, Harmony had minions! Which is just . . . well, doesn't seem real likely. I mean, I really understoon why everyone laughed at the idea. Also, something else struck me, 'cuz you and others were talking about mum not having to dig her way out of a grave, being on the sofa, etc. I mean, looking at this ep, William must not have been found dead and buried by his family either, right? Because mum wants to know where he’s been, what's going on, etc. - not why he’s not in his grave. But when Buffy comes back from the dead, he does talk about having the experience of digging out of a grave. So, I wonder if there were later times when he perhaps had to play dead, let himself be buried then then dig out? Or something? Do you doubt for one moment that Angelus would bury William knowing he would have to claw his way out of his grave? I don't. I'm sure he was much amused. Dragon
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Post by Dragon on Jul 7, 2005 20:56:03 GMT -5
Not to distract from this great discussion, but I thought of something today that I wanted to put out there, about Spike's memory of the incident with his mother and the trigger. Please pipe up if you know more about this, i.e. have watched more brain-washing movies that I have. Was this memory of what happened between Spike and his mom a repressed memory, (one that he didn't consciously remember until LMPTM) or was it just one he tried his darndest not to think about? How exactly did The First manage to set-up the trigger? I mean I've only seen The Manchurian Candidate once, but I'm not quite sure how brainwashing works in the movies. Is it just excessive conditioning-stimulus-response or what? I'm trying to imagine what kind of scenario Spike went through between Grave and when he regained his "sanity" in season 7. I asked Matthew about that very thing last night. Why would the first choose Spike, or even know about him.? As far as I could tell, it was not all knowing. So Why did poor Spike work so hard for a soul and then be thrown to the wolves? Did the demon sell him out? Seems odd, since he gave him his soul and seemd to be rather trustworthy in that way. Also, the first used spike in most unusual ways, he was already stricken with guilt, so it must have searched his mind for one of the most important moments of his life and the song his mother sang to him was to be the trigger. How.? That is one question. I didn't see at any time that it could actually read minds, just terrify them. It already knew how to scare Dawn and Buffy. Another one. Why? What could Spike do that one of its minions couldn't? Spike made Buffy feel for him, and in her state of mind, that was pretty good. For what reason? So she would take him in? She didn't right away. So she would kill him? What for? I miss the whole premise for that part. She might have staked him on the spot when she found him, but she didn't. So that whole part of the season was lost to me. Tha part where Buffy was tossed out by her own family, Giles' betrayal. I know it meant something to the writers, but I just didn't quite get it. Also, was it always the first that went to see Spike in the basement? Inquiring minds reallllly want to know!!! ;D
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Post by KMInfinity on Jul 8, 2005 0:27:26 GMT -5
In general, this is not a favorite episode of mine. The whole Oedipal issue is one I disliked. I understand Joss and Co. were trying to explain how Spike "came to be" and that's part of the equation, but it seemed a bit cliched. However, the execution of the story was excellent. But since I was rewatching it, I made a point to "ignore" that issue and focused on other points. One thing I especially noticed was the quality of the acting. JM's William was a completely different character. The acress playing Anne, William's mom, gave just the right touch of velvet and steel. ASH and SMG's scenes in Wood's office, playful and bonded, contrast so well with the scenes in the graveyard. And JM and Wood are truly mesmerizing in Wood's "garage." One scene in particular stands out - a small scene. It's when Spike enters the garage, sees all the crosses, and realizes there's wheels within wheels turning. The subtle expressions that flit across his face - tension, curiosity, speculation, a touch of fear?-very well done! I like the idea mentioned in the commentary that Spike was an anomaly… Rachel said:I think Buffy was lying a bit to herself. She wanted to justify keeping Spike “alive” by claiming it was a rational decision made strictly because he was their strongest warrior. She says she’d sacrifice Dawn this time around, but I think she’s saying it to try to make the point with Giles that “see, if I would sacrifice Dawn to save the world, then the only reason I’m keeping Spike around is to save the world.” Buffy’s in denial about her own motivations. No sacrificing Dawny. I agree with Pixi when she said this: Dragon said:Someday I’d like to put together every scene of the flashbacks. William was a virgin when turned? When did we learn that? Also, something else struck me, 'cuz you and others were talking about mum not having to dig her way out of a grave, being on the sofa, etc. I mean, looking at this ep, William must not have been found dead and buried by his family either, right? Because mum wants to know where he’s been, what's going on, etc. - not why he’s not in his grave. But when Buffy comes back from the dead, he does talk about having the experience of digging out of a grave. So, I wonder if there were later times when he perhaps had to play dead, let himself be buried then then dig out? Or something? Well - I guess Dru & Co could have buried him, or if he had been found without ID of any type, he could have been buried in a pauper's grave or something. Connecting this with the sitch in Reunion - Darla was a classicist, according to Angel. She probably buried William somewhere.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 8, 2005 9:00:17 GMT -5
Rachel said: I think Buffy was lying a bit to herself. She wanted to justify keeping Spike “alive” by claiming it was a rational decision made strictly because he was their strongest warrior. She says she’d sacrifice Dawn this time around, but I think she’s saying it to try to make the point with Giles that “see, if I would sacrifice Dawn to save the world, then the only reason I’m keeping Spike around is to save the world.” Buffy’s in denial about her own motivations. No sacrificing Dawny. I think this makes sense. One of the tedious things about the season was Buffy's broken-record "Spike has a soul, we need him." That she was in denial about her real motivations and the complexity of the issues makes sense to me. I don't think it's ever explicity stated, but Spike lived at home, unmarried, and devoted to taking care of his mother. If his attempt to court Cecily was typical, then he hardly had a way with the ladies, so its reasonable to assume that he barely had any romantic relationship with any woman, much less a sexual one. He doesn't seem the type to visit prostitutes or sleep with the servants. Maybe this is more a comment for the Reunion thread, but anyway. Yes. I always imagine that Dru did something similar to Spike after she turned him as she did with Darla. Angel guessed pretty quickly that she would do "the ritual" because she was a "classicist." There's nothing else in canon that suggests any sort of ritual is necessary for turning a vampire, so I think it's strictly a Dru thing.
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Post by Karen on Jul 8, 2005 10:33:54 GMT -5
Not to distract from this great discussion, but I thought of something today that I wanted to put out there, about Spike's memory of the incident with his mother and the trigger. Please pipe up if you know more about this, i.e. have watched more brain-washing movies that I have. Was this memory of what happened between Spike and his mom a repressed memory, (one that he didn't consciously remember until LMPTM) or was it just one he tried his darndest not to think about? How exactly did The First manage to set-up the trigger? I mean I've only seen The Manchurian Candidate once, but I'm not quite sure how brainwashing works in the movies. Is it just excessive conditioning-stimulus-response or what? I'm trying to imagine what kind of scenario Spike went through between Grave and when he regained his "sanity" in season 7. Interesting question, Liz. We might look to how The First tried to control Angel S3 of Buffy for a start. Maybe it learned something from that failed attempt to control Angel when it worked on Spike. And Spike being so newly ensouled was much more vulnerable to suggestion than Angel was at the time The First tried to use him. I don't know much about brainwashing, but I think that keeping Spike away from those that would help him (Buffy) at the beginning, gave The First much more power over Spike than it would've had if he had had contact with her earlier. I can imagine that Spike felt very much alone and was so guilt-ridden from the AR....and thinking about the AR - that must be where The First got the idea to use Spike's turning of his mother and twist it to control him.
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