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Post by Onjel on Jul 8, 2005 11:07:47 GMT -5
Not to distract from this great discussion, but I thought of something today that I wanted to put out there, about Spike's memory of the incident with his mother and the trigger. Please pipe up if you know more about this, i.e. have watched more brain-washing movies that I have. Was this memory of what happened between Spike and his mom a repressed memory, (one that he didn't consciously remember until LMPTM) or was it just one he tried his darndest not to think about? How exactly did The First manage to set-up the trigger? I mean I've only seen The Manchurian Candidate once, but I'm not quite sure how brainwashing works in the movies. Is it just excessive conditioning-stimulus-response or what? I'm trying to imagine what kind of scenario Spike went through between Grave and when he regained his "sanity" in season 7. Interesting question, Liz. We might look to how The First tried to control Angel S3 of Buffy for a start. Maybe it learned something from that failed attempt to control Angel when it worked on Spike. And Spike being so newly ensouled was much more vulnerable to suggestion than Angel was at the time The First tried to use him. I don't know much about brainwashing, but I think that keeping Spike away from those that would help him (Buffy) at the beginning, gave The First much more power over Spike than it would've had if he had had contact with her earlier. I can imagine that Spike felt very much alone and was so guilt-ridden from the AR....and thinking about the AR - that must be where The First got the idea to use Spike's turning of his mother and twist it to control him. Good points about looking at TFE's attempt to use Angel. And, it nearly succeeded. Lucky for Angel it snowed and Buffy was there, huh? ETA: And one of the things about good writing is the way the author doesn't have to spell out all the details, leaving something for the readers'/viewers' imaginations to fill in, which is what discussions like these and FanFic are for. ;D
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Post by KMInfinity on Jul 8, 2005 11:09:08 GMT -5
This reminds me of another "might-have-been."
The main plot here revolves around Wood and Giles - especially Giles - betraying Buffy because they think they "know better" the danger Spike poses. So, just how did The First intend to trigger Spike? TFE told Andrew it wasn't Spike's time yet... when and how would he have been used?
Okay - that's a little OT and speculative.....
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Post by Onjel on Jul 8, 2005 11:18:23 GMT -5
This reminds me of another "might-have-been." The main plot here revolves around Wood and Giles - especially Giles - betraying Buffy because they think they "know better" the danger Spike poses. So, just how did The First intend to trigger Spike? TFE told Andrew it wasn't Spike's time yet... when and how would he have been used? Okay - that's a little OT and speculative..... I don't think it's off topic, at all. My guess is that once Spike was in the house or in proximity to the potentials, TFE would trigger him to take them out, either in a group or one at a time, in order to end the slayer line. Or, maybe he was going to be triggered while alone with Buffy in an attempt to take her out. The TFE wasn't counting on Faith's arrival as another potential last surviving slayer, I think. Not that it would have mattered if TFE succeeded in taking out Buffy and the potentials. IMO.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 8, 2005 11:22:08 GMT -5
This reminds me of another "might-have-been." The main plot here revolves around Wood and Giles - especially Giles - betraying Buffy because they think they "know better" the danger Spike poses. So, just how did The First intend to trigger Spike? TFE told Andrew it wasn't Spike's time yet... when and how would he have been used? Okay - that's a little OT and speculative..... I don't think The First had any further plans for Spike. Its comment "it's not time for him yet" had exactly the effect it was intended to. It was taking advantage of the fact that Buffy et al had let the trigger issue slide for so long in order to cause tension in the ranks.
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Post by Onjel on Jul 8, 2005 11:34:38 GMT -5
This reminds me of another "might-have-been." The main plot here revolves around Wood and Giles - especially Giles - betraying Buffy because they think they "know better" the danger Spike poses. So, just how did The First intend to trigger Spike? TFE told Andrew it wasn't Spike's time yet... when and how would he have been used? Okay - that's a little OT and speculative..... I don't think The First had any further plans for Spike. Its comment "it's not time for him yet" had exactly the effect it was intended to. It was taking advantage of the fact that Buffy et al had let the trigger issue slide for so long in order to cause tension in the ranks. Ok, that's another possibility. ;D
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 8, 2005 12:26:46 GMT -5
This reminds me of another "might-have-been." The main plot here revolves around Wood and Giles - especially Giles - betraying Buffy because they think they "know better" the danger Spike poses. So, just how did The First intend to trigger Spike? TFE told Andrew it wasn't Spike's time yet... when and how would he have been used? Okay - that's a little OT and speculative..... I don't think it's off topic, at all. My guess is that once Spike was in the house or in proximity to the potentials, TFE would trigger him to take them out, either in a group or one at a time, in order to end the slayer line. Or, maybe he was going to be triggered while alone with Buffy in an attempt to take her out. The TFE wasn't counting on Faith's arrival as another potential last surviving slayer, I think. Not that it would have mattered if TFE succeeded in taking out Buffy and the potentials. IMO. Yes - The First was all about psychological warfare. It couldn't affect the physical, so all it's moves were directed toward the psychological.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 8, 2005 12:30:09 GMT -5
Rachel said: I think Buffy was lying a bit to herself. She wanted to justify keeping Spike “alive” by claiming it was a rational decision made strictly because he was their strongest warrior. She says she’d sacrifice Dawn this time around, but I think she’s saying it to try to make the point with Giles that “see, if I would sacrifice Dawn to save the world, then the only reason I’m keeping Spike around is to save the world.” Buffy’s in denial about her own motivations. No sacrificing Dawny. I think this makes sense. One of the tedious things about the season was Buffy's broken-record "Spike has a soul, we need him." That she was in denial about her real motivations and the complexity of the issues makes sense to me. I think Buffy meant what she said about Dawn. It fits right in with the growing up thing. Giles is no longer going to have to "kill Ben for her." From now on, she'll be "killing her own Bens." I can easily believe that one way or another, William was buried in a coffin, and had to claw his way out. It isn't explained in LMPTM, but neither is it contradicted.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 8, 2005 12:53:10 GMT -5
Not to distract from this great discussion, but I thought of something today that I wanted to put out there, about Spike's memory of the incident with his mother and the trigger. Please pipe up if you know more about this, i.e. have watched more brain-washing movies that I have. Was this memory of what happened between Spike and his mom a repressed memory, (one that he didn't consciously remember until LMPTM) or was it just one he tried his darndest not to think about? How exactly did The First manage to set-up the trigger? I mean I've only seen The Manchurian Candidate once, but I'm not quite sure how brainwashing works in the movies. Is it just excessive conditioning-stimulus-response or what? I'm trying to imagine what kind of scenario Spike went through between Grave and when he regained his "sanity" in season 7. Interesting question, Liz. We might look to how The First tried to control Angel S3 of Buffy for a start. Maybe it learned something from that failed attempt to control Angel when it worked on Spike. And Spike being so newly ensouled was much more vulnerable to suggestion than Angel was at the time The First tried to use him. I don't know much about brainwashing, but I think that keeping Spike away from those that would help him (Buffy) at the beginning, gave The First much more power over Spike than it would've had if he had had contact with her earlier. I can imagine that Spike felt very much alone and was so guilt-ridden from the AR....and thinking about the AR - that must be where The First got the idea to use Spike's turning of his mother and twist it to control him. Very good thought! And it would fit with the DVD commentary that has been mentioned earlier in which they looked for an actress to play William's mother with a "look" that would be similar to what Buffy might look like at that age. Using Spike's emotions as they relate to Buffy and especially the AR and twisting them together with his mother's death, turning and dusting by him. And keeping him separate from the others would fit in with the idea of "sensory deprivation" that is often a part of messing with someone's mind.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 8, 2005 12:57:06 GMT -5
This reminds me of another "might-have-been." The main plot here revolves around Wood and Giles - especially Giles - betraying Buffy because they think they "know better" the danger Spike poses. So, just how did The First intend to trigger Spike? TFE told Andrew it wasn't Spike's time yet... when and how would he have been used? Okay - that's a little OT and speculative..... I don't think it's off topic, at all. My guess is that once Spike was in the house or in proximity to the potentials, TFE would trigger him to take them out, either in a group or one at a time, in order to end the slayer line. Or, maybe he was going to be triggered while alone with Buffy in an attempt to take her out. The TFE wasn't counting on Faith's arrival as another potential last surviving slayer, I think. Not that it would have mattered if TFE succeeded in taking out Buffy and the potentials. IMO. **nods** Good thoughts! I have always imagined the scenario you describe about him being alone with Buffy and being triggered to kill her. And this would be planned to happen at a crucial moment when her death (or perhaps even her being turned!) would be most disruptive to the gang's plans. Frankly, turning her would have been the most dramatic and potentially most disruptive thing that could happen. I think of the way Rob wrote about the outcome of a slayer being turned . . . very scary possibility!
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Post by Lola m on Jul 8, 2005 12:59:53 GMT -5
This reminds me of another "might-have-been." The main plot here revolves around Wood and Giles - especially Giles - betraying Buffy because they think they "know better" the danger Spike poses. So, just how did The First intend to trigger Spike? TFE told Andrew it wasn't Spike's time yet... when and how would he have been used? Okay - that's a little OT and speculative..... I don't think The First had any further plans for Spike. Its comment "it's not time for him yet" had exactly the effect it was intended to. It was taking advantage of the fact that Buffy et al had let the trigger issue slide for so long in order to cause tension in the ranks. TFE did seem to have a real . . . flexible attitude toward how things happened, didn't it? When Spike attacked Buffy in the basement where all the other vamps were rising, TFE talked about how this wasn't supposed to be happening, or at least not yet, but also said something along the lines of "I can work with that", didn't it? I can see TFE being generally pleased with a lot of possible scenarios. Perhaps it just tosses various problems out there and sees how things shake out?
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Post by Onjel on Jul 8, 2005 13:24:50 GMT -5
I don't think it's off topic, at all. My guess is that once Spike was in the house or in proximity to the potentials, TFE would trigger him to take them out, either in a group or one at a time, in order to end the slayer line. Or, maybe he was going to be triggered while alone with Buffy in an attempt to take her out. The TFE wasn't counting on Faith's arrival as another potential last surviving slayer, I think. Not that it would have mattered if TFE succeeded in taking out Buffy and the potentials. IMO. **nods** Good thoughts! I have always imagined the scenario you describe about him being alone with Buffy and being triggered to kill her. And this would be planned to happen at a crucial moment when her death (or perhaps even her being turned!) would be most disruptive to the gang's plans. Frankly, turning her would have been the most dramatic and potentially most disruptive thing that could happen. I think of the way Rob wrote about the outcome of a slayer being turned . . . very scary possibility! Oh yeah! Turning her would have buggered up their plans but good. Add to that Faith's presence and having her go up against turned Buffy and whoa! The mind boggles! What with Faith's redemption and other issues it would have been quite a scene!
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 10, 2005 11:18:11 GMT -5
Agree - also interesting to note the deliberate parallels to Joyce's death (accompanied by Buffy mentioning her mother's death, to Wood, in the ep). William comes home, expecting to find his "dead mother on the couch" but she isn't there. The actress looks something like Joyce, which I think is quite deliberate, as is the whole "mom on the couch," thing. Like most everything else we see with these two, the deaths of their mothers are paralled - Spike's being a darker version of Buffy's: Both come home and deal with Mom's presence/absence on the couch . . . both try to get Mom back, in their fashion, but both fail in their desperate attempt . . . both go reeling from there. I can't say I see the parallels that strongly with Buffy finding her mom in The Body, but I did just have this super cool thought that I wanted to share with everyone. It concerns a Buffy/Spike connection, but in this case ties with Buffy in season 2. Both Spike and Buffy create monsters out of those they love, though their intentions are good, but misinformed (Buffy by sleeping with Angel causing him to lose his soul and revert to "Angelus" and Spike by turning his mom). Angel turns on Buffy and Spike's mom turns on him, until each is forced to kill the one they love. The respective trauma's really define each characters' personalities and relationships with others from that point on. Then there's the question in the characters' minds and the audiences' minds of how much of "Angel" is in "Angelus" and how much of HumanSpike'sMom is in VampSpike'sMom, and vice versa.
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Post by Lola m on Jul 10, 2005 20:11:28 GMT -5
Agree - also interesting to note the deliberate parallels to Joyce's death (accompanied by Buffy mentioning her mother's death, to Wood, in the ep). William comes home, expecting to find his "dead mother on the couch" but she isn't there. The actress looks something like Joyce, which I think is quite deliberate, as is the whole "mom on the couch," thing. Like most everything else we see with these two, the deaths of their mothers are paralled - Spike's being a darker version of Buffy's: Both come home and deal with Mom's presence/absence on the couch . . . both try to get Mom back, in their fashion, but both fail in their desperate attempt . . . both go reeling from there. I can't say I see the parallels that strongly with Buffy finding her mom in The Body, but I did just have this super cool thought that I wanted to share with everyone. It concerns a Buffy/Spike connection, but in this case ties with Buffy in season 2. Both Spike and Buffy create monsters out of those they love, though their intentions are good, but misinformed (Buffy by sleeping with Angel causing him to lose his soul and revert to "Angelus" and Spike by turning his mom). Angel turns on Buffy and Spike's mom turns on him, until each is forced to kill the one they love. The respective trauma's really define each characters' personalities and relationships with others from that point on. Then there's the question in the characters' minds and the audiences' minds of how much of "Angel" is in "Angelus" and how much of HumanSpike'sMom is in VampSpike'sMom, and vice versa. I really like this comparison as an exploration of part of what makes them the people they are - an event that particularly molds the way they come at relationships.
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Post by Moscow Watcher on Jul 13, 2005 4:12:18 GMT -5
I read interesting commentary by David Fury (in Helcat's report from Sacramento con) forum.colddeadseed.com/viewtopic.php?t=715&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20He (Fury) did try and explain his concept about the retained piece of soul but I still didn't really get it. He thought it was nothing to do with Dru but was related to Spike's mother who he thinks also retained something as she deliberately goaded Spike into killing her once he'd vamped her. I didn't perceive the scene this way - but, hey, he wrote it!
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Post by Dragon on Jul 13, 2005 14:16:22 GMT -5
What kind of lies? Easter bunny, Santa Claus? DragonThe lies are mostly about what Spring said, putting one's parents on a pedestal and having them fall off that pedestal and become human beings instead of protectors and god-like figures. They are also about how parents try to protect their children from the harsher aspects of reality in an effort to keep them young and innocent, and when we become adults, we lose some of that innocence and our eyes are opened to some of the more unpleasant facts of life. I have also considered the "Lies My Parents Told Me" could have refered to what William's mother t said to him at the time of her dusting, or at least his perception of it. It may have caused him believe that everything good she had ever said to him or about was a lie. It would have been a great trauma and part of the pain he suffered from it. There was nothing that told which lies were meant. Also his mum said before she hated to be cruel, wouldn't that mean exactly what she said? that she had a kind personality? As for bored, if you think about it, she had little time to be bored in those days. She had been taught from birth what she was to do, a type of brainwashing of its own. Most women in that era embraced the "house of their own" idea. Dragon
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