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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 24, 2003 13:42:49 GMT -5
You are right, Nan - it's not made completely clear. But, for what it is worth, I did get the feeling, from events in this ep, that Spike will now stop blinking in and out - that the blinking in and out was due entirely to the fact that Spike was being pulled into hell, and that the immediate being"pulled into hell" thing was due completely to Pavayne. Spring, I've gotten the impression (right or wrong) that I'm more comfortable with open-ended and unproven things than you are. If you believe all the "being pulled into hell" effects we've seen were due to Pavayne, do you have an explanation for why this week's effects differ so markedly from those we've seen in the previous two episodes? [/color]
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Post by LadyDi on Oct 24, 2003 14:08:54 GMT -5
Great review, as always! I look forward to your reviews so much; they really add to my enjoyment of each episode. Noticed something for the first time - guess I had to see it written down someplace: "To the charge that Spike has charmed her into doing this, Fred retorts that although she’s quite aware of Spike’s charming ways and attributes, “…what do you think I am: stupid? I know he’s been playing me with the looks and the smiles, but I’m not some idiot schoolgirl with a crush!” hmm... Does that resonate with Angel because he might think about a certain 16-year old in SunnyD and, oh, HIMSELF? Ahhh. great script, great show, and yes, once again: great review. thanks I wondered the same myself, and second the rave review (of the review). I appreciate this exchange as an answer to the charge that Spike's female fans are all just a bunch of hormone-crazed tweeners/frustrated middle-aged spinsters. I also appreciate (as Nan mentioned) that the scene btwn Spike and Fred in the shower area was completely non-sexual. Yes, Spike can charm and flirts like other people breathe, but he respects Fred, and he can think w/his (other) head.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 24, 2003 14:22:38 GMT -5
Spring, I've gotten the impression (right or wrong) that I'm more comfortable with open-ended and unproven things than you are. If you believe all the "being pulled into hell" effects we've seen were due to Pavayne, do you have an explanation for why this week's effects differ so markedly from those we've seen in the previous two episodes? [/color] [/quote] Nan?? I said that you were right, it is not absolutely clear on whether Spike will continue blinking in and out. Also, no - I don't feel uncomfortable with stuff that is open-ended, or really, I couldn't enjoy the Jossverse. I just see certain things, and they say or don't say things to me. If it seems open-ended to me, that's OK. If it seems closed, that's OK too. I call it like I see it. Sometimes I think something is closed. Sometimes I think something is open. Sometimes I am right. Sometimes I am wrong. That said, here are the reasons it seems to me that Spike is probably done with the blinking-in-and-out - (definitely based on "not 100% proven" assumptions): Spike attributes his blinking in and out to making some sort of temporary visits to a hell dimension. MY ASSUMPTION: He is right. In this last episode, we learn a guy named Pavayne is working on sending Spike to hell. MY ASSUMPTION: He's been working on it ever since Spike arrived. I base this on the fact that Spike has been feeling pulled into hell more and more since his arrival, and lo and behold, we learn some guy has been trying to send him to hell. Coincidence? Could something else possibly be responsible for the previous "being pulled into hell" feelings, and Pavayne just recently started an independent attempt? Well, sure - it's possible. It just seems highly unlikely. Spike and Fred (I typed "Willow" instead of "Fred" and had to change it!) in that last scene - the urgency seems gone. Spike is no longer anywhere near as worried about his ghostly state, and seems to be trying to make the best of it if he has to (typical Spike). MY ASSUMPTION: He wants to be corporeal again, of course, but he is no longer worried about being pulled into hell anytime soon, and Fred isn't worried about that either. Hence, the urgency and angst is gone. And they are right not to be worried anymore. EDIT: I just realized that I hadn't answered your specific question Nan, about this week's effects differing - I thought it was due to Spike getting much closer to "the end" - the effects multiplying and changing and worsening as his trip to hell became ready to be permanent.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 24, 2003 14:49:59 GMT -5
I wondered the same myself, and second the rave review (of the review). I appreciate this exchange as an answer to the charge that Spike's female fans are all just a bunch of hormone-crazed tweeners/frustrated middle-aged spinsters. I also appreciate (as Nan mentioned) that the scene btwn Spike and Fred in the shower area was completely non-sexual. Yes, Spike can charm and flirts like other people breathe, but he respects Fred, and he can think w/his (other) head. I never thought of that, LadyDi, but I like the idea that the Fred scene very deliberately contradicts the idea that one has to be totally addled by Spike's good looks to see him as worthy of being saved. I like it! A nice bow to Spike fans! Thanks for mentioning this, LadyDi, it gives me that nice, warm feeling we Spike fans don't often get to bask in. Does this mean cold water next week?
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 24, 2003 15:16:24 GMT -5
Nan?? I said that you were right, it is not absolutely clear on whether Spike will continue blinking in and out. Also, no - I don't feel uncomfortable with stuff that is open-ended, or really, I couldn't enjoy the Jossverse. I just see certain things, and they say or don't say things to me. If it seems open-ended to me, that's OK. If it seems closed, that's OK too. I call it like I see it. Sometimes I think something is closed. Sometimes I think something is open. Sometimes I am right. Sometimes I am wrong. That said, here are the reasons it seems to me that Spike is probably done with the blinking-in-and-out - (definitely based on "not 100% proven" assumptions): Spike attributes his blinking in and out to making some sort of temporary visits to a hell dimension. MY ASSUMPTION: He is right. In this last episode, we learn a guy named Pavayne is working on sending Spike to hell. MY ASSUMPTION: He's been working on it ever since Spike arrived. I base this on the fact that Spike has been feeling pulled into hell more and more since his arrival, and lo and behold, we learn some guy has been trying to send him to hell. Coincidence? Could something else possibly be responsible for the previous "being pulled into hell" feelings, and Pavayne just recently started an independent attempt? Well, sure - it's possible. It just seems highly unlikely. Spike and Fred (I typed "Willow" instead of "Fred" and had to change it!) in that last scene - the urgency seems gone. Spike is no longer anywhere near as worried about his ghostly state, and seems to be trying to make the best of it if he has to (typical Spike). MY ASSUMPTION: He wants to be corporeal again, of course, but he is no longer worried about being pulled into hell anytime soon, and Fred isn't worried about that either. Hence, the urgency and angst is gone. And they are right not to be worried anymore. EDIT: I just realized that I hadn't answered your specific question Nan, about this week's effects differing - I thought it was due to Spike getting much closer to "the end" - the effects multiplying and changing and worsening as his trip to hell became ready to be permanent. You certainly could be right, Spring. I just don't see the evidence yet in the episodes. Pavayne uses minions and is able to cut Spike off from contact with others. The effects we've seen before don't involve either of these elements. So, so far, it seems to me that when Spike first manifests, he shortly becomes aware of a down-drag toward hell. It would be at that same time that Pavayne became aware of a candidate within his "grasp" and began to apply his own methods to a pre-existing condition. These methods became overt in the present episode. Nothing proves this, but it does account for the change. Further episodes will likely determine, one way or the other, whether the threat of going to hell NOW has been eliminated for Spike. [/color]
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Post by Sue on Oct 24, 2003 15:29:14 GMT -5
"The soul that blesses you damns you to suffer forever."
Giving this another look. I know it caught my attention when I first heard it. At first I think I was interpreting it to mean that somehow the soul will/would play a part in Spike's "damnation"-- going to hell.
Upon reflection I think he's just stating an obvious fact--exactly what it torturing Angel. Without the soul there is no guilt, no "suffering". By gaining his soul Spike opened himself up to the "suffering" of conscience and guilt--not just for things he did as a vampire, but for sins of commission and omission now and in the future.
Angel is suffering not for himself but for Connor and Cordy and Nina and people he couldn't save. Without the soul none of that would be an issue. Spike is suffering because of the soul--without it he would have jumped right into the "make me solid" circle and left Fred to meet her fate. Because of the soul he had to suffer the trial of making the right decision and now the burden of remaining incorporeal.
Soul causes suffering. Not as surprising as when I first heard it.
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Post by Sue on Oct 24, 2003 15:32:56 GMT -5
Further episodes will likely determine, one way or the other, whether the threat of going to hell NOW has been eliminated for Spike. [/color] [/quote] Usually I try to back up my reasoning, but out of time right now. But, got to say, not that we are "taking sides", but I'm thinking along the same lines as Spring. I think the "I'm being pulled into hell plot was a set-up specifically for episode 4, not beyond." Just my opinion.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 24, 2003 17:07:43 GMT -5
I wondered the same myself, and second the rave review (of the review). I appreciate this exchange as an answer to the charge that Spike's female fans are all just a bunch of hormone-crazed tweeners/frustrated middle-aged spinsters. I also appreciate (as Nan mentioned) that the scene btwn Spike and Fred in the shower area was completely non-sexual. Yes, Spike can charm and flirts like other people breathe, but he respects Fred, and he can think w/his (other) head. Well put, and as I said (if Moloch hasn't eaten it), I think Fred is enjoying the flirtation as well.
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tkent
S'cubie
"Angel and I have never been intimate...well except that once..." --New fodder for fanfic!
Posts: 21
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Post by tkent on Oct 24, 2003 17:38:32 GMT -5
I simply noticed that the effects on Spike in this episode--that he disappears from others' perspective but is still there from his own, for instance, and that he's seeing things others can't--are quite different from the apparent effects on Spike we have seen before. [/color] [/quote] Glad to be back! Good point. Didn't look at it that way and only time will tell! As we all know things are not always as they appear in Joss' universe... Not always clear either! I just wish I still had the ep on tape, there was something about the conversation between Spike and Pavayne that made that thought click in my head. Oh well! Gives me something to ponder! Oh yea and I agree, I think Fred is definitely enjoying the flirtation! Good for her. I am of the camp that hopes Buffy never comes back to visit, they all need to just get over that one... (However, I may be a camp of ONE!) Not saying Spike should end up with Fred or anyone else. Same goes for Angel. It's just that too many people (in other places) are too wrapped up in who ends up with whom. As a franchise that cannot happen or the franchise ends as well as the good story telling. From a story telling standpoint I think that particular angle as played itself out (and to death). Sorry went off on a tangent there!! Back on track, I really enjoyed how Fred put Eve and Angel in their places with the "I'm not a school girl with a crush." Also how that was sort of a slap in the face for Angel. I also realized something. I think Joss has solved the "monster of the week" versus the "long story arc" problem. So far, he's figured out how to do both and I like it.
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 25, 2003 23:48:56 GMT -5
Still reading the review but had to ask a question it raised in my head. Why can't Angel have Spike sing for Lorne if he truly questions his motives? I mean, I think I know the answer (that Angel doesn't truly question them) but, they all jumped on the idea of Lorne assessing all the W&H employees during the first ep. Why don't they use that resource very much anymore? PS - Forgot to add that the review is great, as usual. Having Spike sing for Lorne would only make sense; which is why the writers and Angel probably didn't do it. The last three episodes would have played out differently if Wes and Gunn had known that Spike could be trusted. Of course, they'll have to make sure that Spike doesn't have any calendula (I think that's the herb the werewolf specialist used to mask his true nature) on his person when he sings. Will Fred volunteer to help the strip search, or should I? Decisions, decisions.
GAIL
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 25, 2003 23:55:29 GMT -5
Well put, and as I said (if Moloch hasn't eaten it), I think Fred is enjoying the flirtation as well. Oh, yes, and who could blame her. Spike is the tough guy, the sexy guy that some high school nerds (as Fred might have been) might find attractive. I bet there was a jock who tried to con Fred into letting him cheat off her test in high school with mega-doses of charm. Fred's a little shy, but she's very perceptive.
I think Spike & Fred are very cute together.
GAIL
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Post by ldelrossi on Oct 26, 2003 9:29:01 GMT -5
I agree with you Sue. My initial reaction was the same as yours. I thought atheistis Joss was rattling his Judeo-Christian fans. But after I thought about it, like you, it made sense. As far back as season 1, in "Angel," Buffy tells Angel she hates him, because she thinks he's bitten her mother, and he responds "Feels good, doesn't it?" and goes on to say that it is good to have no conscience/soul. Because now that he does, "You have no idea what it's like to have done the things I've done, and to care."
In succeeding seasons, especially in season 3, we see him suffering over who and what he is to the point of suicide until the PTBs make it snow. In Angel, his guilt continues in the first episode because he didn't save Tina - "Killed a vampire, didn't save anyone." He couldn't save Doyle, he couldn't save Connor and he couldn't stop Cordelia from ascending or descending to whatever/wherever she went to become evil.
I admire that he continues fighting. As Giles said in "Beauty and the Beasts," "It would take someone with extraordinary charater to survive (Hell) and retain any semblance of self."
Spike is not encumbered with that overwhelming guilt in spite of his soul, for whatever reason. That's why he's important to Angel. He alone can pull him out of his despair. Spike alone can annoy Angel to the point of anger - forcing him to experience emotion, instead of burying it beneath layers of guilt and despair. They are the only 2 vampires with souls. They have a history, yes turbulent, but a common history.
In this episode, Spike brought the entire crew together to work to save him from hell. He may not be corporeal, but he brought Angel and the others into a common focus.
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Post by Sue on Oct 26, 2003 9:58:19 GMT -5
I think Spike & Fred are very cute together.
GAIL I agree--in a sibling kind of way. I like them as a Spike with Dawn substitute, not romantically. Fred would be overwhelmed by Spike's personality. I'd like one of them (Gunn, Wes, Spike, Angel) to develop a non-FG type of relationship. Somewhat like Angel had with Kate, but with understanding of what's going on. Still say Spike needs a "Hepburn" type ala "Nick and Nora".
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 26, 2003 10:07:29 GMT -5
Having Spike sing for Lorne would only make sense; which is why the writers and Angel probably didn't do it. The last three episodes would have played out differently if Wes and Gunn had known that Spike could be trusted. Of course, they'll have to make sure that Spike doesn't have any calendula (I think that's the herb the werewolf specialist used to mask his true nature) on his person when he sings. Will Fred volunteer to help the strip search, or should I? Decisions, decisions.
GAIL You should volunteer. Also, report back.
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Post by Sue on Oct 26, 2003 10:18:41 GMT -5
I agree with you Sue. My initial reaction was the same as yours. I thought atheistis Joss was rattling his Judeo-Christian fans. But after I thought about it, like you, it made sense. As far back as season 1, in "Angel," Buffy tells Angel she hates him, because she thinks he's bitten her mother, and he responds "Feels good, doesn't it?" and goes on to say that it is good to have no conscience/soul. Because now that he does, "You have no idea what it's like to have done the things I've done, and to care." In succeeding seasons, especially in season 3, we see him suffering over who and what he is to the point of suicide until the PTBs make it snow. In Angel, his guilt continues in the first episode because he didn't save Tina - "Killed a vampire, didn't save anyone." He couldn't save Doyle, he couldn't save Connor and he couldn't stop Cordelia from ascending or descending to whatever/wherever she went to become evil. I admire that he continues fighting. As Giles said in "Beauty and the Beasts," "It would take someone with extraordinary charater to survive (Hell) and retain any semblance of self." Spike is not encumbered with that overwhelming guilt in spite of his soul, for whatever reason. That's why he's important to Angel. He alone can pull him out of his despair. Spike alone can annoy Angel to the point of anger - forcing him to experience emotion, instead of burying it beneath layers of guilt and despair. They are the only 2 vampires with souls. They have a history, yes turbulent, but a common history. In this episode, Spike brought the entire crew together to work to save him from hell. He may not be corporeal, but he brought Angel and the others into a common focus. Let's see if I can state coherently the thought which is attempting to crystalize this morning. Protestant here, not a lot of knowledge about Catholocism per say (per se?), BUT I do remember reading a book about Saint Teresa (not Mother Teresa--this was possibly the saint from whom she took her name) in which it was made clear that in spite of what she felt was a clear call to serve God and a life of extreme service she never felt close to Him. She "suffered" for years (decades?) a "dryness of the soul" because she couldn't "feel" God's presence and love. I just recently heard the same thing on an NPR piece about Mother Teresa. (There were several news pieces a few weeks ago about the Pope and the canonization process). I had never heard this before, but it said essentially the same thing--M.T. knew God had called her but never "felt" His closeness (the way we non-saints might have expected her too.) Wish I'd listened more closely. Anyway--these two mirror for me Angel's situation. He knows his "call", his "duty"--and there is no doubt that he will answer it--but there is no joy, no "reward" in it. He sees that the need of the world is so great that everything he does is a drop in the bucket. And the PTB have certainly not rewarded him on any personal level. (Altho to my mind the type of Christian who thinks obedience should automatically result in earthly reward has absolutely no understanding of the true Gospel) Spike sometimes puts me more in mind of a charismatic--much more emotionally swept up in the moment. Also, he's not trying to save the whole world (although he will clearly save whatever damsel in distress, or possibly even non-damsels, happens to cross is path) so he needn't be burdened by his inability to do so. Spike is definitely "the cup is half full" kind of guy. Nor do I think stuff in the Jossverse can be dragged into analogy with real world religion. Must be because it's Sunday. Sue
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