|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 23, 2003 18:45:29 GMT -5
Nan.. I am grateful to read such an intelligent, well thought out, well written review. About the Eyes, the bleeding eyes. I was wondering if it could be something like "Seeing Red". A metaphor of being angry... or mad, thus the madness descends on those infected. Here all the infected can see is everything through a 'blood-red-view'. So, Harmony, seeing red with Spike rails off about how angry she is with him and her issues with him. How does this idea fit? Hi, Nancy T. Good name! I think your theory also has merit, equating the blood with red with anger. I think none of us is yet clear on the mechanism of it--why Spike's recorporealization should produce this result in particular, as it evidently does--and why this, unlike other maladies, appears to afflict vamps and humans alike. No criticism of your theory, but I'd want to have a more complete picture of what's going on, what it means, and WHY before I venture into embarrassing myself in public (as opposed to on this board) about what it all means. Still, both you and LadyDi have given me good food for thought here. Thanks!
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 23, 2003 18:52:29 GMT -5
An afterthought.
The bleeding eyes don't follow directly upon the opening of the package. Gunn, for instance, succumbs far later than Harmony does, and nobody manifests this affliction directly or immediately after the flash. I still assume the flash causes bleeding-eye syndrome, but I wonder about the delay. I also wonder what the distinction is between those afflicted and those, like Fred, who appear at least temporarily immune.
Moreover, the sufferers aren't cured immediately after Spike drinks from the cup. Only after Angel and Spike have made the several hours' journey back to W & H and are physically back in the building do the first recoveries manifest themselves in Gunn's comment. Seconds before, Fred was expressing worry and confusion about the "disease," without any sign that anybody had started to recover up to that point.
In each instance, my question is--if the red-eye syndrome is caused by the flash/Spike's recorporealization, and it's cured by the stabilizing factor of his successfully drinking from the Cup (even if it IS Mountain Dew!) why the delay?
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on Nov 23, 2003 18:53:15 GMT -5
Hi, Nancy T. Good name! I think your theory also has merit, equating the blood with red with anger. I think none of us is yet clear on the mechanism of it--why Spike's recorporealization should produce this result in particular, as it evidently does--and why this, unlike other maladies, appears to afflict vamps and humans alike. No criticism of your theory, but I'd want to have a more complete picture of what's going on, what it means, and WHY before I venture into embarrassing myself in public (as opposed to on this board) about what it all means. Still, both you and LadyDi have given me good food for thought here. Thanks! Here's a little more... the madness started after Harmony opened the box. The light flashes, and Spike's corporeal again. Spike has a nack for seeing/speaking the truth. The anger is a good angle, tho'. Harmony is angry at Spike, Mr. Considerate is angry about the toner, Gunn is angry at Eve. Maybe anger is the trigger.
|
|
|
Post by ldelrossi on Nov 23, 2003 20:04:35 GMT -5
Great review as always and you're right about the complexity of the episode. Your discussion about the cup: "One of the Grail legends concerns a king, wounded unto death, whose illness sickens all the land." Could Angel be this king to Wesley's Percival? Angel was the only vampire with a soul and a champion, but his trauma about Connor and Cordelia have disconnected him and his work at W&H is keeping him from helping the helpless as much as he did before. We've talked about him losing hope. His loss of hope may well open the door for more trouble or "illness that will sicken" or allow evil to run rampant in the world. I'm probably taking this too far - but I was intrigued with the story that you reminded me of. Of course, Spike could very well be the knight -"a younger man who resists all temptations to despair and give up the quest." As Angel said, Spike "wants it more." In the Tarot, the suit of Cups are usually cards that deal with emotions. Each card means something different such as the 3 - reunion with friends; the 5 - others in love matters are not being truthful; Knight - balance of power in your favor; Ace - emotional fulfillment. Spike is an emotional being who "wears his heart on his sleeve" and reacts quickly without thinking many times. Angel (IMHO) is deeply emotional, but for a variety of reasons, keeps his emotions under tight control. I think it began with his father's constant rebukes and disappointment in him. Angel did love his father and tried and failed to get his father to approve of him. He can't give his love to a woman or he brings forth Angelus. Although he loved Connor, he couldn't make him happy. His feelings for Cordelia were thwarted. So - he closes himself off. The cup, as you said, is usually seen as a symbol of the feminine. Women are stereotypically viewed as the "emotional sex," which goes along with the suit of Cups. See what your review inspired? These are only thoughts on one aspect of it.
|
|
|
Post by RAKSHA on Nov 23, 2003 20:44:15 GMT -5
Great review as always and you're right about the complexity of the episode. Your discussion about the cup: "One of the Grail legends concerns a king, wounded unto death, whose illness sickens all the land." Could Angel be this king to Wesley's Percival? Angel was the only vampire with a soul and a champion, but his trauma about Connor and Cordelia have disconnected him and his work at W&H is keeping him from helping the helpless as much as he did before. We've talked about him losing hope. His loss of hope may well open the door for more trouble or "illness that will sicken" or allow evil to run rampant in the world. I'm probably taking this too far - but I was intrigued with the story that you reminded me of. Of course, Spike could very well be the knight -"a younger man who resists all temptations to despair and give up the quest." As Angel said, Spike "wants it more." In the Tarot, the suit of Cups are usually cards that deal with emotions. Each card means something different such as the 3 - reunion with friends; the 5 - others in love matters are not being truthful; Knight - balance of power in your favor; Ace - emotional fulfillment. Spike is an emotional being who "wears his heart on his sleeve" and reacts quickly without thinking many times. Angel (IMHO) is deeply emotional, but for a variety of reasons, keeps his emotions under tight control. I think it began with his father's constant rebukes and disappointment in him. Angel did love his father and tried and failed to get his father to approve of him. He can't give his love to a woman or he brings forth Angelus. Although he loved Connor, he couldn't make him happy. His feelings for Cordelia were thwarted. So - he closes himself off. The cup, as you said, is usually seen as a symbol of the feminine. Women are stereotypically viewed as the "emotional sex," which goes along with the suit of Cups. See what your review inspired? These are only thoughts on one aspect of it. Excellent post. Angel's father was a repressive sort of person, Liam rebelled in his human life and his vamp existence, but souled Angel is constantly reinforcing the controls.
Spike always was more in touch with his feminine side. So all that energy that Angel spends in controlling himself is translated by Spike into just about whatever he wants to do with it. I'm not saying that one character's approach is better than the other, but there is a difference...
[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
|
|
|
Post by Wendy on Nov 23, 2003 20:59:54 GMT -5
Your Nanalysis was, as usual, excellent. You always give the reader so much more to think about. One of the reasons this board is the best, is the quality of writing all of you do, particularly the reviewers. I know this episode had to be difficult since it brought up more questions than answers. I thought you handled it very nicely.
Wendy
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on Nov 23, 2003 21:21:36 GMT -5
Excellent post. Angel's father was a repressive sort of person, Liam rebelled in his human life and his vamp existence, but souled Angel is constantly reinforcing the controls.
Spike always was more in touch with his feminine side. So all that energy that Angel spends in controlling himself is translated by Spike into just about whatever he wants to do with it. I'm not saying that one character's approach is better than the other, but there is a difference...
[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Ah, the differences btwn Spike and Angel. How ME loves to emphasize them, even while underlining their similarities. Liam rebelled, William played by the rules. Angel controls, Spike is rebellious. Big fun.
|
|
|
Post by ldelrossi on Nov 24, 2003 7:47:35 GMT -5
I don't know whether it was you Gail, but someone posted that Angel feels inferior to Spike's poetic, sensitive side and his comfortable relationships with women. Because of the curse and because he spends such energy secreting his inner demon, Angel is controlling not only of others but of himself. I find it fascinating that he is controlling, since he rebelled against his controlling father.
That same person also said that Spike feels inferior to Angel's strength, both of body and of purpose. Since he feels he doesn't measure up, Spike is wild physically and he is anything but controlled.
I like ME's development of the characters recently. We see somewhat into their "souls." But it basically validates what a lot of discussions on this board have been about the differences of our 2 favorite vampires.
Their differences can blend into great power, if as Lee said, they stop having those pissing contests and work together.
|
|
|
Post by Dev(Rob) on Nov 24, 2003 8:21:45 GMT -5
Good review Nan, a bit of a different style to your usual reviews. Still enjoyable though David Boreanaz is still recovering from knee surgery so that is why a lot of his scenes are sitting scenes or slow walking scenes. He is doing some upper body shots for the fight scenes but unfortunately a lot of it is stunt double work at the moment. SandyShores; a.k.a. Karen - I like your reference to Pandoras box, the quote was good. Hope is one of the things that makes us human but will it eventually make Angel or Spike human?
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Nov 24, 2003 8:23:11 GMT -5
I don't know whether it was you Gail, but someone posted that Angel feels inferior to Spike's poetic, sensitive side and his comfortable relationships with women. Because of the curse and because he spends such energy secreting his inner demon, Angel is controlling not only of others but of himself. I find it fascinating that he is controlling, since he rebelled against his controlling father. That same person also said that Spike feels inferior to Angel's strength, both of body and of purpose. Since he feels he doesn't measure up, Spike is wild physically and he is anything but controlled. I like ME's development of the characters recently. We see somewhat into their "souls." But it basically validates what a lot of discussions on this board have been about the differences of our 2 favorite vampires. Their differences can blend into great power, if as Lee said, they stop having those pissing contests and work together. I agree, Lori. I think that Spike's comment to Angel - "You don't know me - you were too busy trying to see your own reflection" illustrates this. Kind of like a father who wants his child to be just like him, he refuses to see the child in front of him for who he really is. I always thought that Angel felt jealous of Spike's poetic side and Spike jealous of Angel's *manly* side. But I also feel that Angel has that sensitive side, but just doesn't know how to express it. I hope he learns this from Spike. And maybe in the process Spike will embrace *William*. I think he hates Willie as much as Angel hates Liam/Angelus. I wonder if Spike will change his name to reflect the change he will undergo from obtaining his soul. At one point he rejected *William*, like Angelus rejected Liam and later evolved into Angel.
|
|
makd on the run to work
Guest
|
Post by makd on the run to work on Nov 24, 2003 9:52:09 GMT -5
I agree, Lori. I think that Spike's comment to Angel - "You don't know me - you were too busy trying to see your own reflection" illustrates this. Kind of like a father who wants his child to be just like him, he refuses to see the child in front of him for who he really is. I always thought that Angel felt jealous of Spike's poetic side and Spike jealous of Angel's *manly* side. But I also feel that Angel has that sensitive side, but just doesn't know how to express it. I hope he learns this from Spike. And maybe in the process Spike will embrace *William*. I think he hates Willie as much as Angel hates Liam/Angelus. I wonder if Spike will change his name to reflect the change he will undergo from obtaining his soul. At one point he rejected *William*, like Angelus rejected Liam and later evolved into Angel. Spike admires Angelus, as has been said, more than one might think. He became Spike - leaving William in the dust (so to speak), after Angelus told him he needed a name that was more terrifying than William. Granted, it was a while after, but IMO, he'd begun to think about a name. Spike is certainly a lot harder (pun here? than Angelus.
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Nov 24, 2003 10:16:36 GMT -5
Good review Nan, a bit of a different style to your usual reviews. Still enjoyable though David Boreanaz is still recovering from knee surgery so that is why a lot of his scenes are sitting scenes or slow walking scenes. He is doing some upper body shots for the fight scenes but unfortunately a lot of it is stunt double work at the moment. SandyShores; a.k.a. Karen - I like your reference to Pandoras box, the quote was good. Hope is one of the things that makes us human but will it eventually make Angel or Spike human? Thanks, Dev! Please call me Karen. I'm having a name change, kind of like William to Spike and Liam to Angelus. You're right that Hope makes us human. If Spike already has hope, I suppose that would make him more human than Angel already. Angel is struggling with hope/Spike this season. I guess the PTB or whoever will be the ones who'll decide who gets to be human or not. I like them as vampires. Lucky for them I don't get a vote. ;D DB also just finished done filming the Crow - probably where he got the knee injury. I think he relishes stunt work. I read once where he performed a stunt and got hurt, but didn't tell anyone until they were done shooting the scene. He was hurt pretty badly. I hope they have more Angel/Spike fight scenes. Thanks for posting!
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Nov 24, 2003 10:21:05 GMT -5
Spike admires Angelus, as has been said, more than one might think. He became Spike - leaving William in the dust (so to speak), after Angelus told him he needed a name that was more terrifying than William. Granted, it was a while after, but IMO, he'd begun to think about a name. Spike is certainly a lot harder (pun here? than Angelus. I guess *jealous* isn't what I meant to say. I also think Spike admired and was maybe somewhat fearful of Angelus, and that might have made him feel insecure. The bravado he showed was in direct response to that feeling of insecurity and also pride in himself. I think the demon gave him that courage to stand up to Angelus. But in the process he lost some of William.
|
|
|
Post by SpringSummers on Nov 24, 2003 11:22:40 GMT -5
Nice review, Nan.
This ep did raise more questions than it answered.
You mentioned the Viper, and it just made me remember that I thought it was significant the way Spike just stayed ahead of Angel the whole way. He's just plain ahead of Angel right now, and looking at Spike's dust is not a position Angel is at all used to. But he seems to show signs of a willingness to let go of the status quo - a very, very, big deal for Angel.
Personally, I don't think the Cup - I mean, the fact that Spike drank from it - will have any continuing significance beyond what Angel said: Even though it's fake, it matters, it says something, that Spike beat Angel to it. I think, otherwise, the cup was a total fake out.
The Cup of course, was about Dru & Buffy too. I mean - the way Spike is the one who actually gets there and drinks from it, who wants it more than Angel does. And it's not just the Shanshu prophecy that Angel is contemplating, I don't think, when he wonders if he is "really the one." He's having to change his whole world view almost, and it is to his credit that he's allowing himself to think "outside the box" - because Angel? He really likes the box.
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Nov 24, 2003 12:15:55 GMT -5
Nice review, Nan. This ep did raise more questions than it answered. You mentioned the Viper, and it just made me remember that I thought it was significant the way Spike just stayed ahead of Angel the whole way. He's just plain ahead of Angel right now, and looking at Spike's dust is not a position Angel is at all used to. But he seems to show signs of a willingness to let go of the status quo - a very, very, big deal for Angel. Personally, I don't think the Cup - I mean, the fact that Spike drank from it - will have any continuing significance beyond what Angel said: Even though it's fake, it matters, it says something, that Spike beat Angel to it. I think, otherwise, the cup was a total fake out. The Cup of course, was about Dru & Buffy too. I mean - the way Spike is the one who actually gets there and drinks from it, who wants it more than Angel does. And it's not just the Shanshu prophecy that Angel is contemplating, I don't think, when he wonders if he is "really the one." He's having to change his whole world view almost, and it is to his credit that he's allowing himself to think "outside the box" - because Angel? He really likes the box. I agree with you about Angel. He does like the box, and the feeling of not being in control of things is really getting to him. Spike, besides being ahead of Angel right now, has also been taking Angel's stuff. Since he beat Angel once, it will be interesting to see if Spike will continue to take things that are important to Angel, and if Angel will let him.
|
|