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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 24, 2003 14:57:07 GMT -5
I just realized that Spike's walking in Angel's footsteps has put him in the position of being a souled, heroic vampire.
Would Spike have thought of going out and getting his soul back without the example of his souled vampire grandsire/nemesis? Would Spike now have an example of heroism to follow-or-ridicule, or both, if Angel hadn't blazed the trail first? This can either be used as evidence that Spike is a wannabe poseur riding on Angel's saintly coattails, or a reaffirmation of the father/son bond between them. I had thought that Angelus was Spike's only father-figure, but now I see that Angel is also Spike's father. A good father sets an example for a son, tries to guide him; then lets the son decide, on maturity, what the son will do with his life. Angel hasn't been a good father to Spike; he's been a very poor father, but Angel/Angelus has been the only father Spike has apparently ever known. And so far, he's followed Angel's pattern of souled heroism, albeit with Spiky variations on the theme.
I don't want to see Spike reject the idea of being a souled hero just because Angel is one.
Spike is still defining himself. He is neither the snarky bad boy of BUFFY S2-4 or the romantic and gentle and noble Spike of the last part of S7; but someone in between. He took a big step forward in his evolution in DESTINY, now, hopefully he can move forward in his relationship with Angel and the rest of the world. (though some snarking will always be welcome; I love Spike-snark)
Maybe there's a possibility of an eventual Spike/Lindsey rock band after all.[glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Yes - the Angel/Spike relationship was very father-son, with all the good and the bad that goes with that. I definitely agree with your view of Spike still defining himself, and the big step he took in Destiny. Someone said he was "just like Season 4" but he isn't - far from it. He was excited and thoughtless and impulse-driven with Harmony in this last episode, but he's no longer a guy who would shove her against a wall for whining, and stake her for complaining about not going to Paris. He helped Angel defeat the necromancer at a great cost to himself, and he saved Fred at a great cost to himself, and he saved Gunn last week. But he's not the shining, totally selfless, adored and adoring hero he was right before he went up in flames. He'll find himself, as will Angel - with a little help from their friends (including each other).
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Post by Betsy on Nov 24, 2003 15:05:52 GMT -5
Yes - the Angel/Spike relationship was very father-son, with all the good and the bad that goes with that. I definitely agree with your view of Spike still defining himself, and the big step he took in Destiny. Someone said he was "just like Season 4" but he isn't - far from it. He was excited and thoughtless and impulse-driven with Harmony in this last episode, but he's no longer a guy who would shove her against a wall for whining, and stake her for complaining about not going to Paris. He helped Angel defeat the necromancer at a great cost to himself, and he saved Fred at a great cost to himself, and he saved Gunn last week. But he's not the shining, totally selfless, adored and adoring hero he was right before he went up in flames. He'll find himself, as will Angel - with a little help from their friends (including each other). And right now I think Spike is being more of a hindrance to Angel than a help. All the snarking about taking the deal offered by WH, being in the beast of the belly, what would Buffy think of him now, blah, blah, blah, etc. Does Spike really think that Angel doesn't realize this already, but then SPike also doesn't know the reason for Angel's decision. Angel even mentioned this last Wednesday, but Spike doesn't want to hear any of it. I think right now Angel is questioning the deal he and his gang took, and is trying to make the best of it, the best way they know how at time. But right now Spike is so caught up in the I did this and all I got was diddlysquat, he's taking it out on the nearest person he can and since Angel is the only one he really knows and knows how to really hurt, he's zeroing in on Angel. But if he'd really just stop, look and listen, I think he'd be more of a help to Angel. But until then, he will be no help to Angel at all if he continues to be so abrasive.
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 24, 2003 15:14:00 GMT -5
And right now I think Spike is being more of a hindrance to Angel than a help. All the snarking about taking the deal offered by WH, being in the beast of the belly, what would Buffy think of him now, blah, blah, blah, etc. Does Spike really think that Angel doesn't realize this already, but then SPike also doesn't know the reason for Angel's decision. Angel even mentioned this last Wednesday, but Spike doesn't want to hear any of it. I think right now Angel is questioning the deal he and his gang took, and is trying to make the best of it, the best way they know how at time. But right now Spike is so caught up in the I did this and all I got was diddlysquat, he's taking it out on the nearest person he can and since Angel is the only one he really knows and knows how to really hurt, he's zeroing in on Angel. But if he'd really just stop, look and listen, I think he'd be more of a help to Angel. But until then, he will be no help to Angel at all if he continues to be so abrasive. I beg to differ. Spike is keeping the "big ape" honest, something Angel needs. Spike is more objective about the W&H deal than any of the FG, 'cuz he's completely outside of it. That's the point. BTW, I'm the one who posted the Spike fixes what Angel's broken theory.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 24, 2003 15:16:49 GMT -5
I think Angel has been losing hope for quite a while. He's burdened with guilt about Connor and the mindwipe. Etc, etc. And you're right, Angel let Spike *take* those things that he assumed were his because I don't think he thinks he deserves them. And I didn't think Angel gave those things up willingly. Spike had a hand in initiating the taking. If I was the boss of a company, and my reward for all my hard work had been *taken* away from me by an outsider, you might say that my reward wasn't mine to begin with because it wasn't in my possession, but you can't tell me that I gave it to the one who took it from me. I too hope they will be each other's salvation. If I win $100 in a competition with you, and I don't believe that $100 was ever promised to you to begin with (even if you do), then I don't have to agree that you gave it to me, in order not to see myself as a thief. If Spike "wins" the Shanshu, he will not have taken it from Angel. It was never in a box with Angel's name on it, and Spike isn't responsible for the fact that Angel really really thought it was his all this time, and really really wants it to be. As Spike recently said in an ep: "If wishes were horses . . ." but they're not. Buffy - Angel definitely gave her up willingly. Spike didn't wrench her away, no matter how you look at it. The Shanshu - first, Spike has not Shanshued. So even if I bought the idea that the Shanshu was ever definitely "Angel's," and that it has to be one or the other, Spike hasn't taken it away. It's still there, unclaimed. If Angel's hope is gone because he now has competition, this is not something Spike has taken away from him either. They are both responsible for their own actions and their own moods, etc. Spike can't take away Angel's hope, anymore that Angel can take away Spike's. Spike has taken nothing of any consequence from Angel. Buffy wasn't his. The Shanshu is still out there. Nobody can take your hope away - that is Angel's choice - he can despair and he can only give it up, but I don't think he will.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 24, 2003 15:20:23 GMT -5
And right now I think Spike is being more of a hindrance to Angel than a help. All the snarking about taking the deal offered by WH, being in the beast of the belly, what would Buffy think of him now, blah, blah, blah, etc. Does Spike really think that Angel doesn't realize this already, but then SPike also doesn't know the reason for Angel's decision. Angel even mentioned this last Wednesday, but Spike doesn't want to hear any of it. I think right now Angel is questioning the deal he and his gang took, and is trying to make the best of it, the best way they know how at time. But right now Spike is so caught up in the I did this and all I got was diddlysquat, he's taking it out on the nearest person he can and since Angel is the only one he really knows and knows how to really hurt, he's zeroing in on Angel. But if he'd really just stop, look and listen, I think he'd be more of a help to Angel. But until then, he will be no help to Angel at all if he continues to be so abrasive. Underneath it all, Spike has been a huge help to Angel. He was pivotal in defeating the necromancer, giving up a chance to take over Angel's body and save himself from hell, to do it. He was pivotal in defeating Pavayne, giving up a chance to be corporeal in order to do it. He saved Gunn in the last episode. They've both been less than nice to each other, and snarky, etc. But underneath it all, Angel let Spike stay around (could have smashed the amulet long ago!) and Spike helped Angel, a lot.
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Post by Betsy on Nov 24, 2003 15:29:34 GMT -5
Underneath it all, Spike has been a huge help to Angel. He was pivotal in defeating the necromancer, giving up a chance to take over Angel's body and save himself from hell, to do it. He was pivotal in defeating Pavayne, giving up a chance to be corporeal in order to do it. He saved Gunn in the last episode. They've both been less than nice to each other, and snarky, etc. But underneath it all, Angel let Spike stay around (could have smashed the amulet long ago!) and Spike helped Angel, a lot. Sorry you won't convince me that Angel wouldn't have defeated the necromancer without Spike's help. I also think Angel is aware of the "trouble" he's in or the problems he has now that he has accepted WH's offer. He knows it probably wasn't the right decision, he certainly doesn't need Spike continuously harking on it and he certainly isn't telling Angel anything he hasn't been thinking of himself. So where's the help in that? Other than continually bashing Angel upside the head with it and that's not really help at all to my way of thinking.
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 24, 2003 15:37:53 GMT -5
And right now I think Spike is being more of a hindrance to Angel than a help. All the snarking about taking the deal offered by WH, being in the beast of the belly, what would Buffy think of him now, blah, blah, blah, etc. Does Spike really think that Angel doesn't realize this already, but then SPike also doesn't know the reason for Angel's decision. Angel even mentioned this last Wednesday, but Spike doesn't want to hear any of it. I think right now Angel is questioning the deal he and his gang took, and is trying to make the best of it, the best way they know how at time. But right now Spike is so caught up in the I did this and all I got was diddlysquat, he's taking it out on the nearest person he can and since Angel is the only one he really knows and knows how to really hurt, he's zeroing in on Angel. But if he'd really just stop, look and listen, I think he'd be more of a help to Angel. But until then, he will be no help to Angel at all if he continues to be so abrasive. Well, so far, <abrasive> has always been Spike's middle name. He's always called 'em as he's seen 'em, sometimes gently and sometimes not.
Spike HAS helped Angel destroy the necromancer, he probably saved Gunn's life, he pinpointed the existence of a malevolent entity gobbling W&H ghosts and helped neutralize it - none of which were things he HAD to do. He chose to take those actions, two of which cost him a chance at corporeality at the expense of someone else. I would say that Spike has been VERY helpful to Angel.
As far as Spike's usefulness being undermined by his snarky tendancies, he really hasn't said or done anything that should derail someone of Angel's maturity and power.
The problem is, Angel knows that he made the deal with W&H NOT to help the helpless more efficiently, but because he wanted to save his son. He deceived his friends and colleagues; they know nothing of Angel's true motivation. Spike's presence and irascible snarky comments about the 'rightness' of Angel's having made that devil's bargain irritate Angel so much because the big guy knows he did the wrong thing, even for the right reasons. I can't say I blame Angel, he was in a horrible position; and many parents would take that bargain or worse to save their suffering child. But he joined an evil institution and inspired his friends to do the same without letting them know that he did so out of desperation rather than conviction, and he knows it was not the right thing to do.
Angel made a difficult, desperate and ultimately flawed choice. I don't think Spike should be blamed for pointing out those flaws. (yelling out "Try staking your mother after she tried to shag you" at the reception desk is another matter!) [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 24, 2003 15:38:49 GMT -5
Sorry you won't convince me that Angel wouldn't have defeated the necromancer without Spike's help. I also think Angel is aware of the "trouble" he's in or the problems he has now that he has accepted WH's offer. He knows it probably wasn't the right decision, he certainly doesn't need Spike continuously harking on it and he certainly isn't telling Angel anything he hasn't been thinking of himself. So where's the help in that? Other than continually bashing Angel upside the head with it and that's not really help at all to my way of thinking. I made no effort to convince you Angel couldn't have defeated the necromancer without Spike's help. I'll bet he could have. You said Spike wasn't being helpful, and I pointed out that he was VERY helpful to Angel in dealing with the necromancer, even giving up a chance to take over Angel's body, and avoid hell, in order to help. Spike does annoy the bejeezuz out of Angel, and Angel has been less than perfectly nice to Spike. What I'm trying to say is that, underneath it all, when push comes to shove, they make the right decisions for each other. Angel didn't smash the amulet. Angel let Fred go ahead with her corporealization research. Spike didn't take over Angel's body. Spike helped with Pavayne. He didn't stake Angel when he could have. He's helped Angel. A lot. Even when he wasn't really trying, and he knocked over that garbage can. He isn't being presented as someone who is being no help to Angel. Could he be less annoying? Oh sure. But then he wouldn't be Spike. Could Angel be more sympathetic to Spike? Yeah. But then he wouldn't be Angel. And what fun would that be?
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 24, 2003 15:41:45 GMT -5
Sorry you won't convince me that Angel wouldn't have defeated the necromancer without Spike's help. I also think Angel is aware of the "trouble" he's in or the problems he has now that he has accepted WH's offer. He knows it probably wasn't the right decision, he certainly doesn't need Spike continuously harking on it and he certainly isn't telling Angel anything he hasn't been thinking of himself. So where's the help in that? Other than continually bashing Angel upside the head with it and that's not really help at all to my way of thinking. Why did we see so many scenes of Hainsley in control of Angel? So we'd know Hainsley had power over him. Hainsley had Angel right where he wanted him. If Spike really wanted to take from Angel, he would've double crossed Angel w/Hainsley. Spike gets the whole bag of marbles and Angel's out of his hair (bonus). Hainsley had power over the dead, including Angel, but Spike was stronger. Stronger over the long run? Probably not, but strong enough when it mattered. Not only has Spike been presented as being helpful to Angel, he's been presented as someone who could be even more helpful if Angel and the FG help him. C'mon, Betsy, I know you're spoiled too.
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Post by Karen on Nov 24, 2003 15:50:17 GMT -5
I made no effort to convince you Angel couldn't have defeated the necromancer without Spike's help. I'll bet he could have. You said Spike wasn't being helpful, and I pointed out that he was VERY helpful to Angel in dealing with the necromancer, even giving up a chance to take over Angel's body, and avoid hell, in order to help. Spike does annoy the bejeezuz out of Angel, and Angel has been less than perfectly nice to Spike. What I'm trying to say is that, underneath it all, when push comes to shove, they make the right decisions for each other. Angel didn't smash the amulet. Angel let Fred go ahead with her corporealization research. Spike didn't take over Angel's body. Spike helped with Pavayne. He didn't stake Angel when he could have. He's helped Angel. A lot. Even when he wasn't really trying, and he knocked over that garbage can. He isn't being presented as someone who is being no help to Angel. Could he be less annoying? Oh sure. But then he wouldn't be Spike. Could Angel be more sympathetic to Spike? Yeah. But then he wouldn't be Angel. And what fun would that be? No fun at all, I agree! ;D All I was ever trying to say was that Spike being let out of Pandora's Box, so to speak, caused all the pandemonium in Angel's life to be brought to a head. NOT that it was his fault. There is EveL lurking about that had a big hand in it. And he was played beautifully. And so was Angel. I don't think it matters if *we* think that Angel's stuff is unimportant, or if the Shanshu was his or not in the first place. The fact remains that Spike took, and I can see no other word for it, Angel's stuff. He didn't ask him, - 'May I have a drink out of your cup', or 'Can I borrow the Viper' dad, or 'can I shag your Secretary'. Or 'can I try to take the Shanshu from you, please, because I deserve it more'? Whether or not we think these really were Angel's things to begin with, Angel thinks they are, and that's what's important. Spike needs to realize what he's doing before he can be a help to Angel. Angel needs to accept that help when Spike offers it. They need to quit playing the game of W&H's, EveL and whoever else is jerking their chains, and start playing their own game. Like they did together with Pavayne and the necromancer. Spike may be helping Angel underneath it all, but it's because he's good now, not because he likes Angel. And I like it when they team up. They are both the better for it. Hope and Crosby. Oh, January is so far away!
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Post by Betsy on Nov 24, 2003 15:54:11 GMT -5
The problem is, Angel knows that he made the deal with W&H NOT to help the helpless more efficiently, but because he wanted to save his son. He deceived his friends and colleagues; they know nothing of Angel's true motivation. [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] No you are right, at this time they don't know what his motivation was in taking the deal. But I'm sure however the alternate timeline is now, they all, or at least most of them, were ready to take the deal themselves in "Home" LORNE (singing) Could be...who knows? There's something due any day I will know right away soon as it shows (Fred walks into the lobby) It may come cannonballin' down from the sky gleaming inside... Welcome back, Fred (talking, hugs her) Hi. Hey. (starts dancing with her) Oh, well, let me tell you, when this cruise ship sets sail, I will be on the Lido deck. (chuckles) You know, I mean, it's unbelievable. Secrets of the universe, like Siegfried, evil; Roy, not so much. Oh, and balance? Very, very important. (spins Fred out, and she bumps into Wesley)
FRED Uh, heh—ooh! Uh... guess we're all straggling back, some more straggly-like than others. Are you—?
WESLEY Just, uh... a lot to take in.
The elevator bell rings, Gunn steps out.
FRED You look... did they make you taller?
GUNN I'm doing this. Hope it's not just me, but if it is, that's all right, too.
WESLEY As much as it pains me to admit it, there's probably a great deal we could accomplish with the resources available here.
FRED (looks at Wesley) I can't believe it. Are—are you saying we should take the deal?
ANGEL I already took it.
FRED Angel, what—what?
WESLEY You took the deal?
ANGEL Executive decision.
WESLEY I didn't think you'd—I think they were more suprised that Angel took the deal. But Gunn was all for it, Lorne was pretty excited about it, and it looks like Wesley for all for it. Not sure on Fred at this point, but she was pretty impressed with what she would be getting. So Angel took the deal, made an executive decision. Heads of company's do that all the time. I think what WH really wanted was Angel, and enticing his friends was their way to shore up getting Angel to come over and work in the LA Branch. They offered him something they knew he couldn't turn down. A chance to save his son. I'm sure if Lorne, Fred, Wes or Gunn wanted no part of the deal, the offer still would have been extened to Angel. The others were just to sweeten the deal to make sure Angel came over. It didn't matter if they knew about the deal Angel struck regarding Connor. It was a private deal and the only one that would have gotten Angel into W&H.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 24, 2003 15:54:37 GMT -5
No fun at all, I agree! ;D All I was ever trying to say was that Spike being let out of Pandora's Box, so to speak, caused all the pandemonium in Angel's life to be brought to a head. NOT that it was his fault. There is EveL lurking about that had a big hand in it. And he was played beautifully. And so was Angel. I don't think it matters if *we* think that Angel's stuff is unimportant, or if the Shanshu was his or not in the first place. The fact remains that Spike took, and I can see no other word for it, Angel's stuff. He didn't ask him, - 'May I have a drink out of your cup', or 'Can I borrow the Viper' dad, or 'can I shag your Secretary'. Or 'can I try to take the Shanshu from you, please, because I deserve it more'? Whether or not we think these really were Angel's things to begin with, Angel thinks they are, and that's what's important. Spike needs to realize what he's doing before he can be a help to Angel. Angel needs to accept that help when Spike offers it. They need to quit playing the game of W&H's, EveL and whoever else is jerking their chains, and start playing their own game. Like they did together with Pavayne and the necromancer. Spike may be helping Angel underneath it all, but it's because he's good now, not because he likes Angel. And I like it when they team up. They are both the better for it. Hope and Crosby. Oh, January is so far away! ITA. Angel THINKS those things & Buffy are his (couldn't figure out how to make that sentence bold) and that's what matters to him.
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Post by Betsy on Nov 24, 2003 15:59:40 GMT -5
Why did we see so many scenes of Hainsley in control of Angel? So we'd know Hainsley had power over him. Hainsley had Angel right where he wanted him. If Spike really wanted to take from Angel, he would've double crossed Angel w/Hainsley. Spike gets the whole bag of marbles and Angel's out of his hair (bonus). Hainsley had power over the dead, including Angel, but Spike was stronger. Stronger over the long run? Probably not, but strong enough when it mattered. Not only has Spike been presented as being helpful to Angel, he's been presented as someone who could be even more helpful if Angel and the FG help him. C'mon, Betsy, I know you're spoiled too. I'm not denying that Spike hasn't helped him in those instances, and I guess I wasn't clear in what I was trying to say. What I meant was all the harking that Spike is doing on the deal that Angel made with W&H. Angel knows he made a deal with the devil. He knows it probably isn't the best thing he's done, but he's trying to deal with it and make the best of it and to have someone in his hear continuously harking on it isn't helpful. That's what I meant. Spikes thinks he knows Angel, but I don't think he does. He knows Angelus, but has never spent that much time with Angel. DOesn't really know who Angel is now. Same in that Angel knows the Spike of years ago. Not this new version of Spike.
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Post by LadyDi on Nov 24, 2003 16:01:10 GMT -5
ITA. Angel THINKS those things & Buffy are his (couldn't figure out how to make that sentence bold) and that's what matters to him. Angel does seem to think Buffy's still his, even though he gave her up. He can't have her, but he doesn't really want anyone else to have her either. In his mind, she's still as much his as Dru is. The similarities btwn the scene in s2 when Spike is watching Angelus and Dru from the shadows and the scene in Chosen was just as deliberate as so much else in BtVS. Dru can't move away from "Daddy," but Buffy can (and has).
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Post by Karen on Nov 24, 2003 16:03:13 GMT -5
ITA. Angel THINKS those things & Buffy are his (couldn't figure out how to make that sentence bold) and that's what matters to him. Angel's perception of Spike is that Spike is taking what is his. Whether or not Spike is doing it out of spite, or just because he is Spike, doesn't matter. It still gets the same reaction from Angel - every time - Angel feels threatened. They need to quit acting like children, like Lee has said in her review. (But not for a while, because their fighting is fun and makes for a good story.)
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