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Post by beccaelizabeth on Feb 6, 2004 3:11:53 GMT -5
We are told, as Lindsey talks to Eve, that he has been nobody's agent. Trouble is Eve works for the Senior Partners and is evil, therefore he would tell her evil motives to get her to do stuff.
I'm intrigued by the Enochian runes- angelic language.
But I do think Lindsey is playing his own game really.
People keep saying that but I still don't see it. Lindsey had his own power, got his own ass kicked, the crystal and the monster were a seperate deal.
I also really dont think Eve is (should be) all gone. Out of sight, out of mind, but out of the running? With what she knows? I doubt it.
I don't think Lindsey wanted the Doyle thing unveiled YET, but I do think he had a different plan than the big let the monster out one. Seeing as he could have done that at any time. Letting the monster out was a response to the intervention of TPTB, showing an interest in their champion again. He was trying to get the Senior Partners to think that Spike, not Angel, was the relevant Champion- if TPTB choose Angel, that screws that plan rather.
Cordy is presented as the voice of pissed off Cordy. She doesnt even claim the degree of omniscience she had post ascension, just slogs through books based on a vision like she did before. Her reactions were human, including a very human degree of annoyance. Not trying to say its true.
OTOH it could be use what you've got, evil methods for good ends, is what she actually believes, given that she persuades Angel to stay on.
I think the most significant part is Angel refused- remember we have seen him dark enough to torture before (after Connor went, capture the W&H guy). However pissed off and broody he has been getting under pressure at W&H, he hasn't gone so dark torture springs to mind, or seems acceptable.
Peripheral damage would wipe out the Senior Partners investment, but if they really want to get to Angel then why alert him to something being up? In the sure knowledge he'll go confront it rather than sending the guy who isnt affected by kryptonite (seeing as the bad thing was specifically targeted at him, it would hit his personal weaknesses). I'm not sure at all who sent that warning, and it is an interesting move.
Another fight reference in both the moves and the music (to my mind anyways) is the climatic fight in Blade between the souped up Frost and the recently back from the brink Blade. Plus, blood round his mouth. hmm, round both their mouths actually, but much more on Lindsey for once.
Also noticeable to be- I think whoever choreographed that sword fight uses a katana. They were using western swords with eastern moves, I think. I recognise a lot of the moves from Highlander, and they work different with a different shaped sword. The way he was holding the hilt and posing with it struck me as a very katana move. So why the *bleep* were they not both using katanas? So you could tell the difference when they swapped swords? I mean I wouldn't have given Lindsey a katana when there are perfectly good American civil war swords to use, but neither would I have given him a standard cross guard medieval european sword. So why did they? Aside from not thinking about it half as much as Highlander usually did.
Actually if them swapping weapons was important to notice theres a whole significance there- Cordy giving Angel a weapon, Lindsey takes it, Angel takes Lindsey's- who gets the power from whom and who it goes to. Then they both throw the swords away and rely on their personal strength. At which point Lindsey was by no means a match for Angel- got headbutted and ass kicked. I'm pretty sure the loss of crystal was not relevant, the loss of outside powers (sword, then tats) was what did it. Otherwise, if Lindsey were only human, Angel could have snapped his neck with any of those punches. Vamp strength can go through walls, yes? People, not so much the obstacle.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Feb 6, 2004 3:16:55 GMT -5
I personally think it would be neat if Spike inherited Cordy's visions, but I doubt that will happen... Well he's got the headache gesture all practiced (and we see it in this ep. What is it with headbutting in this ep? Spike to Angel, Angel to Lindsey- its a move that does damage to both participants so why do it that way? Aside from being able to stay in close up and be violent.
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Post by Lola m on Feb 6, 2004 8:44:51 GMT -5
Well he's got the headache gesture all practiced (and we see it in this ep. What is it with headbutting in this ep? Spike to Angel, Angel to Lindsey- its a move that does damage to both participants so why do it that way? Aside from being able to stay in close up and be violent. I looked at the first headbutt (Spike's) as classic Spike - the kinda move he'd do. And then I liked the second one, 'cuz I took it as a little bit of respect from Angel to Spike - even if not a conscious one. He was thinking back to their earlier fight and using a move that Spike had used - and it worked nicely because Lindsey wouldn't expect it from Angel. And I guess it also could be seen as a symbol for Angel moving away from being so distant - getting back "in touch" with people - 'cuz it's such a physical, skin-to-skin move. But this is probably way overthinking what was probably just a funny/neat touch the stunt coordinator wanted to add to contrast all the high tech Matrix-y jumping. Lola
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Post by Karen on Feb 6, 2004 8:56:05 GMT -5
Thanks for a great review, Nan. Patti highlighted the quote of yours that I liked, too. "The past informs the present and awakens it to the truth. If Cordy has been uneasily, inexplicably asleep and idvorced from her true nature, so has Angel." Neat stuff.
Becca mentioned the sword fight. I don't know from swords, but good point about them changing swords (why do I think that "sword switch" was also planned by Lindsey? I'm really blinded by his sexy runes, me thinks.) (The knife Lindsey pulled out of his pocked looked like an ordinary old pocket knife to me.)
What struck me most about the fight between Lindsey and Angel was how it was very "changing of the guard" - from old ways to new ways.
Lindsey looked very much the savage - all rune-covered, long haired with an earring, and almost shirtless - was he barefoot, too?
And there was Angel - fighting in a suit. Seemed very old against new.
They don't do ritualistic sacrificing at W&H anymore. Seems like a lot more demons might make their escape to another dimension because of the new policies that Angel is putting in place.
Angel wants to change W&H from the inside, and it looks like he just might do it.
What happened to that crystal?
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 6, 2004 9:29:41 GMT -5
Thanks for a great review, Nan. Patti highlighted the quote of yours that I liked, too. "The past informs the present and awakens it to the truth. If Cordy has been uneasily, inexplicably asleep and idvorced from her true nature, so has Angel." Neat stuff. Becca mentioned the sword fight. I don't know from swords, but good point about them changing swords (why do I think that "sword switch" was also planned by Lindsey? I'm really blinded by his sexy runes, me thinks.) (The knife Lindsey pulled out of his pocked looked like an ordinary old pocket knife to me.) What struck me most about the fight between Lindsey and Angel was how it was very "changing of the guard" - from old ways to new ways. Lindsey looked very much the savage - all rune-covered, long haired with an earring, and almost shirtless - was he barefoot, too? And there was Angel - fighting in a suit. Seemed very old against new. They don't do ritualistic sacrificing at W&H anymore. Seems like a lot more demons might make their escape to another dimension because of the new policies that Angel is putting in place. Angel wants to change W&H from the inside, and it looks like he just might do it. What happened to that crystal? Nice review, Nan. I liked the format you chose, and echo Patti and Karen on especially liking the "so has Angel" observation. I too believe that Lindsey is gone, but Eve is not. That is based on nothing more than "the feeling" I got from the episode, but we'll see. For all the high-powered fighting, I liked this episode for its romance. If THAT Cordy could have stuck around, with THAT Angel, I could have gone for such a C/A romance - very much so. You could feel the love, and it gave Angel so much, and it wouldn't have wallowed in the angst . . . Cordy would not have let it. It was so sad to see Cordy go though. Not just because of the love story we're not going to get. But because it was Cordy. Cordy who told Buffy to spank her inner moppet, Cordy who was devastated, along with Oz, to find Xander and Willow kissing - our Cordy. And when he said he needed her . . . you just knew it was true. And I have a feeling he will need her - what she's left behind (the love and the confidence and clarity that love put him in touch with) - very badly as he makes his way through what's ahead. For Angel - well, this ep wasn't about a sudden big and permanent change coming over Angel . . . it was about giving him a solid source for the strength he'll need, to face the challenges ahead and make the changes he needs to make. I don't think Angel has hit rock bottom yet, but I think he will, and when he gets there, this day with Cordy will play a part in helping him find his way out.
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Tesla
Junior S'cubie
the ice is getting thinner
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Post by Tesla on Feb 6, 2004 10:06:15 GMT -5
This was a very intriguing episode. When Cordy grabbed Eve by the ear, I actually yelled, "Go, CORDY!" several times whilst doing a cheerleader move. I disturbed my cat so badly she nearly couldn't go back to sleep.
Classic Cordy also never had trouble with smacking down the bad or ambiguously evil guys, so I loved her, "Torture her!" Besides, there always has to be a good cop/bad cop. Loved Harmony jumping in there!
As for the rest of the Fang Gang---well, Gunn *is* a lawyer now. In the Jossverse, lawyer = evil. Issues much, Joss? I knew Gunn's morality was going south as soon as he walked in the courtroom. ( I mean, at my law school we didn't even laugh at the soul-selling jokes.) Wesley--stop shaving! I'm glad we did have some interaction with Cordelia and Wes, since they and Angel were the Fang Gang for the second part of the first season. And yes, I think Fred was totally enthralled with Wesley's badass mojo.
I never thought I was an Angel/Cordy shipper until the horror that was Connor/Cordy, and I'm not sure if I'm one now. I felt so sorry for Angel---he looked like he was falling apart at the end.
And oh, my Lord----the hojay with the Lindsay-Angel fight. I shudder to think of the writers' meeting when they thought up the Magic Pocketknife bit. But I like seeing Angel get down with his super-moves.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 6, 2004 10:38:33 GMT -5
Can something be both astringent and chalky? In chemistry, maybe not, but in winemaking and cooking, yeah... so are personal essences more a matter of science or cuisine? Julia, oops, reminded of something but not enough to write about it yet
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 6, 2004 10:49:03 GMT -5
Thanks for a great review, Nan. Patti highlighted the quote of yours that I liked, too. "The past informs the present and awakens it to the truth. If Cordy has been uneasily, inexplicably asleep and idvorced from her true nature, so has Angel." Neat stuff. Becca mentioned the sword fight. I don't know from swords, but good point about them changing swords (why do I think that "sword switch" was also planned by Lindsey? I'm really blinded by his sexy runes, me thinks.) (The knife Lindsey pulled out of his pocked looked like an ordinary old pocket knife to me.)What struck me most about the fight between Lindsey and Angel was how it was very "changing of the guard" - from old ways to new ways. Lindsey looked very much the savage - all rune-covered, long haired with an earring, and almost shirtless - was he barefoot, too? And there was Angel - fighting in a suit. Seemed very old against new. They don't do ritualistic sacrificing at W&H anymore. Seems like a lot more demons might make their escape to another dimension because of the new policies that Angel is putting in place. Angel wants to change W&H from the inside, and it looks like he just might do it. What happened to that crystal? my emphasis Well, not an ordinary knife, a deer hunter's carcase preparation knife. Switchblades don't have a blood groove usually, or the fine tip this one has, which is used to pierce the belly skin before gutting a deer to get it ready to pack out of the woods. I noticed immediately it wasn't a switchblade (has anyone else here ever handled one?) but it didn't seem germane to the story, so I didn't mention it. SO, since I'm showing I'm also obsessive about bladed tools, I might as well point out that while the sword Cordy takes off the wall is a katana, Lindsey's sword seems to morph at least once- from a 19th century cavalry saber (in the first change) to, as be has pointed out, a mediaeval cross-handled straight sword. Julia, gets all my sword knowledge from watching Antiques Roadshow, but the knives are just tools
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Post by Karen on Feb 6, 2004 11:28:02 GMT -5
my emphasis Well, not an ordinary knife, a deer hunter's carcase preparation knife. Switchblades don't have a blood groove usually, or the fine tip this one has, which is used to pierce the belly skin before gutting a deer to get it ready to pack out of the woods. I noticed immediately it wasn't a switchblade (has anyone else here ever handled one?) but it didn't seem germane to the story, so I didn't mention it. SO, since I'm showing I'm also obsessive about bladed tools, I might as well point out that while the sword Cordy takes off the wall is a katana, Lindsey's sword seems to morph at least once- from a 19th century cavalry saber (in the first change) to, as be has pointed out, a mediaeval cross-handled straight sword. Julia, gets all my sword knowledge from watching Antiques Roadshow, but the knives are just tools Ah, the knife is a tool. Angel was left with the sword (I think) and the crystal (?) after this encounter. Has he been picking up goodies all along this season? Sounds like a Mario Bros. game to me. And we saw that pink castle in the dream episode, that my son says is almost exactly like the one in a Mario Bros. game. Now, what does that rune covered stone that Eve gave Fred have to do with the story? Are we ever going to see what she found out about it. There were runic symbols all around the fail-safe machine, too. Why? Now all we need is for Angel and Spike to have a "Peach" to save, and I'm going to be convinced that they are playing somebody's idea of a video game.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 6, 2004 12:39:07 GMT -5
Julia, I stand corrected on the knife.
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Pet
S'cubie
Mmm..Thinkin' of you, Pet!!
Posts: 123
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Post by Pet on Feb 6, 2004 12:41:15 GMT -5
Nan,
Excellent review. Succinct and to the "existential nut". Yes, all (or maybe most) open issues resolved. Patti lays out the open-ended items nicely, especially, fall-out over the mind-raping and Conner, and the return of Lindsey/Eve. I agree that Eve may return given her revenge comment. Boy, that last look she gave the FG was the best piece of acting for her in the whole show. I really believed she was more than pissed. Ha! Ha! Besides, JW is perverse enough to bring her back because most of the fans hated her. I'm still looking for Kennedy to return in other than suggestion. Geesh!
Interestingly Nan, I was not surprised with the FG embracing Spike, as you said in
"he joins the rest of the Fang Gang as they decide to soothe their sorrows with a pint or two. This is the first time Spike has been included, without question or objection, in any social gathering of the Fang Gang...".
In Damage, Fred said, very specifically, "We have his hands". This stood out for me since, especially flowing from your analysis as hands related to power and action, we knew Spike was being played to some extent, and Fred has a caring concern for Spike.
I think the Angel/Spike relationship was taken a step back with Angel's comment about not wanting to hurt anyone he cares about and then accepting Spike's help. Maybe he knew Spike could handle himself, but it was still mean without Angel's clarification, since Spike was going along to help out Angel. I think this is more evidence of his developing as the more mature of the two. I thought his beating up on the TV was out of character, a little too juvenile and unreasonable, especially since he didn't flip out when he lost the first game. But...ME's in charge.
And Spike is so friggin' cute. I think I'm in love (with a make believe character. I so need a life.) <Sigh>
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 6, 2004 12:45:26 GMT -5
We are told, as Lindsey talks to Eve, that he has been nobody's agent. Trouble is Eve works for the Senior Partners and is evil, therefore he would tell her evil motives to get her to do stuff. I'm intrigued by the Enochian runes- angelic language. But I do think Lindsey is playing his own game really. People keep saying that but I still don't see it. Lindsey had his own power, got his own ass kicked, the crystal and the monster were a seperate deal. I also really dont think Eve is (should be) all gone. Out of sight, out of mind, but out of the running? With what she knows? I doubt it. I don't think Lindsey wanted the Doyle thing unveiled YET, but I do think he had a different plan than the big let the monster out one. Seeing as he could have done that at any time. Letting the monster out was a response to the intervention of TPTB, showing an interest in their champion again. He was trying to get the Senior Partners to think that Spike, not Angel, was the relevant Champion- if TPTB choose Angel, that screws that plan rather. Cordy is presented as the voice of pissed off Cordy. She doesnt even claim the degree of omniscience she had post ascension, just slogs through books based on a vision like she did before. Her reactions were human, including a very human degree of annoyance. Not trying to say its true. OTOH it could be use what you've got, evil methods for good ends, is what she actually believes, given that she persuades Angel to stay on. I think the most significant part is Angel refused- remember we have seen him dark enough to torture before (after Connor went, capture the W&H guy). However pissed off and broody he has been getting under pressure at W&H, he hasn't gone so dark torture springs to mind, or seems acceptable. Peripheral damage would wipe out the Senior Partners investment, but if they really want to get to Angel then why alert him to something being up? In the sure knowledge he'll go confront it rather than sending the guy who isnt affected by kryptonite (seeing as the bad thing was specifically targeted at him, it would hit his personal weaknesses). I'm not sure at all who sent that warning, and it is an interesting move. Another fight reference in both the moves and the music (to my mind anyways) is the climatic fight in Blade between the souped up Frost and the recently back from the brink Blade. Plus, blood round his mouth. hmm, round both their mouths actually, but much more on Lindsey for once. Also noticeable to be- I think whoever choreographed that sword fight uses a katana. They were using western swords with eastern moves, I think. I recognise a lot of the moves from Highlander, and they work different with a different shaped sword. The way he was holding the hilt and posing with it struck me as a very katana move. So why the *bleep* were they not both using katanas? So you could tell the difference when they swapped swords? I mean I wouldn't have given Lindsey a katana when there are perfectly good American civil war swords to use, but neither would I have given him a standard cross guard medieval european sword. So why did they? Aside from not thinking about it half as much as Highlander usually did. Actually if them swapping weapons was important to notice theres a whole significance there- Cordy giving Angel a weapon, Lindsey takes it, Angel takes Lindsey's- who gets the power from whom and who it goes to. Then they both throw the swords away and rely on their personal strength. At which point Lindsey was by no means a match for Angel- got headbutted and ass kicked. I'm pretty sure the loss of crystal was not relevant, the loss of outside powers (sword, then tats) was what did it. Otherwise, if Lindsey were only human, Angel could have snapped his neck with any of those punches. Vamp strength can go through walls, yes? People, not so much the obstacle. Beccaelizabeth, a thoughtful and detailed post. You should sign up for a guest review. Two eps are still unclaimed. Any interest? It seemed to me that the removal of the crystal, that shut down the ascending "cage," also diminished Lindsey's powers immediately, so I assumed therefore that the insertion of the crystal enabled those powers. Lindsey was able to clobber Angel, hand to hand, before the sword fight got started, whereas after the crystal was removed, Angel wiped the *floor* (wasn't the floor, it was the top of the containment thingie, but still....) with him. So it seemed the crystal was causative to me, even though it made no particular sense for it to be so. After all, what do superpowers have to do with releasing a targeted beastie that presumably would pass anybody else by unless they got in its way? So it's quite possible you're right about the non-crystal source of Lindsey's powers, but there are problems with both explanations, I'm afraid.
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Post by Nickim on Feb 6, 2004 12:50:41 GMT -5
Not much to add, but just wanted to say again how much I enjoy your reviews, Nan. I think Eve will be back. I don't hate her as much as some people, but she seems somewhat unnecessary. I wish they would focus more on the main characters and less on people like Eve.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 6, 2004 12:51:50 GMT -5
Nan, Excellent review. Succinct and to the "existential nut". Yes, all (or maybe most) open issues resolved. Patti lays out the open-ended items nicely, especially, fall-out over the mind-raping and Conner, and the return of Lindsey/Eve. I agree that Eve may return given her revenge comment. Boy, that last look she gave the FG was the best piece of acting for her in the whole show. I really believed she was more than pissed. Ha! Ha! Besides, JW is perverse enough to bring her back because most of the fans hated her. I'm still looking for Kennedy to return in other than suggestion. Geesh! Interestingly Nan, I was not surprised with the FG embracing Spike, as you said in "he joins the rest of the Fang Gang as they decide to soothe their sorrows with a pint or two. This is the first time Spike has been included, without question or objection, in any social gathering of the Fang Gang...". In Damage, Fred said, very specifically, "We have his hands". This stood out for me since, especially flowing from your analysis as hands related to power and action, we knew Spike was being played to some extent, and Fred has a caring concern for Spike. I think the Angel/Spike relationship was taken a step back with Angel's comment about not wanting to hurt anyone he cares about and then accepting Spike's help. Maybe he knew Spike could handle himself, but it was still mean without Angel's clarification, since Spike was going along to help out Angel. I think this is more evidence of his developing as the more mature of the two. I thought his beating up on the TV was out of character, a little too juvenile and unreasonable, especially since he didn't flip out when he lost the first game. But...ME's in charge. And Spike is so friggin' cute. I think I'm in love (with a make believe character. I so need a life.) <Sigh> Pet, I'm glad Spike's getting a bit more acceptance from the Fang Gang, too. But I believe he and Angel will always snark at one another regardless of their degree of mutual acceptance/affection (or lack of same). It's just what they do. David Fury has never been among my favorite Spike writers and he's said things about the character I dislike, too. Inasmuch as this wasn't a Spike-centric episode, I think his take fits in broadly with canon--Spike's short temper and hair-trigger frustration threshold, and resulting throwing/breaking things, is an established characteristic--and doesn't do any particular damage. And his fight with the zombies is fun--I wished I could have watched that instead of Angel's fight with Lindsey, actually. And the fact that I identify with Spike doesn't mean I can't also love him: narcissists need love, too.
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Pet
S'cubie
Mmm..Thinkin' of you, Pet!!
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Post by Pet on Feb 6, 2004 13:13:54 GMT -5
Pet, I'm glad Spike's getting a bit more acceptance from the Fang Gang, too. But I believe he and Angel will always snark at one another regardless of their degree of mutual acceptance/affection (or lack of same). It's just what they do. Yes, that's why it works. I watch Angel to see Spike's interactions and to see how ME works out the redemption issues for Spike, his relationship with Buffy, and, consequently, Angel's redemption. I want to see Angel Shanshu, since that is his dream. I believe Spike could care less about being human--he loves being a vampire. But he does want the reward of being a hero, even if that is only just recognition, and now, he wants purpose - even more than needing Buffy, but I think he wants to bring something more to Buffy, so it appears. And his fight with the zombies is fun--I wished I could have watched that instead of Angel's fight with Lindsey, actually. Yes, because he likes "the rush, and the crunch". I wanted to see that also, but alas.... And the fact that I identify with Spike doesn't mean I can't also love him: narcissists need love, too. Heee! Sounds good, but Huh?
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